Bull Ring @Penelope: States requiring Car insurance vs. Federal mandates on health insurance

[Penelope]

Liability, yes I know what liability insurance costs, and also comp.

No you have proven all you know is far left religious dogma!

Dear Kosh and Penelope
If we can all agree it is far left religious doctrine,
that's enough to argue to SEPARATE IT FROM GOVT.

We don't have to agree whose beliefs are right or wrong
to ARGUE TO SEPARATE THESE.

And not have GOVT abused to endorse and enforce
ONE SET of beliefs while penalizing the other.

Let BOTH sets pursue their OWN terms and conditions,
and let federal dollars be apportioned proportionally to
states to divide between their citizens of different beliefs.

These can be organized by party per state/district, similar to Electoral votes
distributed per state.

Take a vote on which health care plans people BELIEVE IN,
divide the Electoral votes over the Districts, and distribute
tax dollars per state based on which plans are approved for that State per District.

I want the government out of my health insurance and let me go back and negotiate my own deal with the insurance company of my choice, like I can do with car insurance. Let it go across state lines so it will be cheaper and more affordable to everyone!

There are really only a few large health insurance companies, and before the ACA a IC paid lots. The reason HI is high is do to not making it mandatory. When companies are in charge they jack the price up. Clinton would of fixed the ACA, which needed some tinkering , but she never got the chance and neither did Obama. Everyone , every the poor has a right to have a family dr. and not have to go to the ers. There are many diseases and conditions that require medical care and would be best if monitored regularly, but the Pubs can't have that. Kick a dog to the street is what they want.

Dear Penelope it can still be fixed by transferring the given exchanges and mandates
to Democrats to reform and make sustainable. I suggest by combining this with prison
reform, and converting prisons into medical treatment, research and service programs
for education, training and internships in public and mental health, the same resources
we currently waste per state in the billions on FAILED mental health and prison systems,
that make people sicker and warehouse people in prisons and on drugs, can be used
to fund service providers, facilities and development to support universal care!

Read about Taiwan healthcare, like our ACA. Obama didn't pull this out in night of smoking pot, he investigated what other countries are doing about healthcare. We need Medicare for all. Call it universal healthcare, what ever you want. The Pubs will not have Obama be tied to it. Their plan will be no plan, you will be on your own, mandatory funding of HSA and they will be mandatory. There was a reason for SS and Medicare, and if anything , there is a greater need today, since the capitalist are now in charge and could care less about the middle income or poor.

 

[Penelope]

So you want it all. I believe strongly in the mind/body experience, and as a healthcare provider I can tell you stress is a killer in many way, anxiety , etc ,but medical attention is needed. While the mind body can deter illnesses, sooner or later a body breaks down or one is born with bad genes. It will only get worst, if they kill the EPA, and the food we eat is full of chemicals to begin with . A relaxed unstressed mind can create a environment more conducive to health and healing. For some that might be in the form of prayer and meditation, or exercise, but there is a need for medical intervention sooner or later, and if your lucky enough to never have an accident or illness and just keel over and die when 85, good for you, but that is not the norm.

And once again you are pushing a far left religious narrative!

You have proven you do not understand anything outside your religious dogma..

Spiritual healing is a lot more than prayer, but if you wish to insult all those Native Americans and Hindu's please be my guest!

You mean a dance, and some smoke in the pipe. I'm not interested.

Yes we know the far left hates anything not part of the far left religion!

No interested in your new age , old age healing stuff. I went through all that new age/ old age, stuff in my 20's.

Yes we know the far left hates anything not part of the far left religion!

Here’s How Much Obamacare Premiums Are Rising in All 50 States

Obamacare was supposed to be cheaper, yet it is now causing people to decide whether to pay for health insurance or eat!

It is a disaster and only a far left drone would not see it!

Do you have insurance, and have you been to the site, or are you just spouting the Pub talking points?

 

[Kosh]

No you have proven all you know is far left religious dogma!

Dear Kosh and Penelope
If we can all agree it is far left religious doctrine,
that's enough to argue to SEPARATE IT FROM GOVT.

We don't have to agree whose beliefs are right or wrong
to ARGUE TO SEPARATE THESE.

And not have GOVT abused to endorse and enforce
ONE SET of beliefs while penalizing the other.

Let BOTH sets pursue their OWN terms and conditions,
and let federal dollars be apportioned proportionally to
states to divide between their citizens of different beliefs.

These can be organized by party per state/district, similar to Electoral votes
distributed per state.

Take a vote on which health care plans people BELIEVE IN,
divide the Electoral votes over the Districts, and distribute
tax dollars per state based on which plans are approved for that State per District.

I want the government out of my health insurance and let me go back and negotiate my own deal with the insurance company of my choice, like I can do with car insurance. Let it go across state lines so it will be cheaper and more affordable to everyone!

There are really only a few large health insurance companies, and before the ACA a IC paid lots. The reason HI is high is do to not making it mandatory. When companies are in charge they jack the price up. Clinton would of fixed the ACA, which needed some tinkering , but she never got the chance and neither did Obama. Everyone , every the poor has a right to have a family dr. and not have to go to the ers. There are many diseases and conditions that require medical care and would be best if monitored regularly, but the Pubs can't have that. Kick a dog to the street is what they want.

Dear Penelope it can still be fixed by transferring the given exchanges and mandates
to Democrats to reform and make sustainable. I suggest by combining this with prison
reform, and converting prisons into medical treatment, research and service programs
for education, training and internships in public and mental health, the same resources
we currently waste per state in the billions on FAILED mental health and prison systems,
that make people sicker and warehouse people in prisons and on drugs, can be used
to fund service providers, facilities and development to support universal care!

Read about Taiwan healthcare, like our ACA. Obama didn't pull this out in night of smoking pot, he investigated what other countries are doing about healthcare. We need Medicare for all. Call it universal healthcare, what ever you want. The Pubs will not have Obama be tied to it. Their plan will be no plan, you will be on your own, mandatory funding of HSA and they will be mandatory. There was a reason for SS and Medicare, and if anything , there is a greater need today, since the capitalist are now in charge and could care less about the middle income or poor.

Obamacare has nothing to do with anything except being a step toward single payer!

And what works somewhere else usually doe snot work in the US..

The US has the most diverse population of any nation, a one size fits all will never work in the US..

That is why you far left drones fail with each and every post!

 

[Kosh]

And once again you are pushing a far left religious narrative!

You have proven you do not understand anything outside your religious dogma..

Spiritual healing is a lot more than prayer, but if you wish to insult all those Native Americans and Hindu's please be my guest!

You mean a dance, and some smoke in the pipe. I'm not interested.

Yes we know the far left hates anything not part of the far left religion!

No interested in your new age , old age healing stuff. I went through all that new age/ old age, stuff in my 20's.

Yes we know the far left hates anything not part of the far left religion!

Here’s How Much Obamacare Premiums Are Rising in All 50 States

Obamacare was supposed to be cheaper, yet it is now causing people to decide whether to pay for health insurance or eat!

It is a disaster and only a far left drone would not see it!

Do you have insurance, and have you been to the site, or are you just spouting the Pub talking points?

Yes you prove that you are a far left drone!

The link and all other news outlets prove that Obamacare is a failure and is far more expensive than how it was sold to the public..

Yes I know you will ignore reality in favor of your far left religious dogma!

 

[miketx]

Trying pin a lib down would be the same a trying to catch a fart and paint it green.

 

[Penelope]

You mean a dance, and some smoke in the pipe. I'm not interested.

Yes we know the far left hates anything not part of the far left religion!

No interested in your new age , old age healing stuff. I went through all that new age/ old age, stuff in my 20's.

Yes we know the far left hates anything not part of the far left religion!

Here’s How Much Obamacare Premiums Are Rising in All 50 States

Obamacare was supposed to be cheaper, yet it is now causing people to decide whether to pay for health insurance or eat!

It is a disaster and only a far left drone would not see it!

Do you have insurance, and have you been to the site, or are you just spouting the Pub talking points?

Yes you prove that you are a far left drone!

The link and all other news outlets prove that Obamacare is a failure and is far more expensive than how it was sold to the public..

Yes I know you will ignore reality in favor of your far left religious dogma!

No it proves nothing, insurance go up, and in those states where the Pubs fought it tooth and nail it has taken the biggest hit. Pubs actually make the country go its knees when in office, why because Pubs do not want to pay taxes. This discussion is over, because I'm a fan of the ACA and it would of been great if not for the Pubs.

 

[emilynghiem]

No you have proven all you know is far left religious dogma!

Dear Kosh and Penelope
If we can all agree it is far left religious doctrine,
that's enough to argue to SEPARATE IT FROM GOVT.

We don't have to agree whose beliefs are right or wrong
to ARGUE TO SEPARATE THESE.

And not have GOVT abused to endorse and enforce
ONE SET of beliefs while penalizing the other.

Let BOTH sets pursue their OWN terms and conditions,
and let federal dollars be apportioned proportionally to
states to divide between their citizens of different beliefs.

These can be organized by party per state/district, similar to Electoral votes
distributed per state.

Take a vote on which health care plans people BELIEVE IN,
divide the Electoral votes over the Districts, and distribute
tax dollars per state based on which plans are approved for that State per District.

I want the government out of my health insurance and let me go back and negotiate my own deal with the insurance company of my choice, like I can do with car insurance. Let it go across state lines so it will be cheaper and more affordable to everyone!

There are really only a few large health insurance companies, and before the ACA a IC paid lots. The reason HI is high is do to not making it mandatory. When companies are in charge they jack the price up. Clinton would of fixed the ACA, which needed some tinkering , but she never got the chance and neither did Obama. Everyone , every the poor has a right to have a family dr. and not have to go to the ers. There are many diseases and conditions that require medical care and would be best if monitored regularly, but the Pubs can't have that. Kick a dog to the street is what they want.

Dear Penelope it can still be fixed by transferring the given exchanges and mandates
to Democrats to reform and make sustainable. I suggest by combining this with prison
reform, and converting prisons into medical treatment, research and service programs
for education, training and internships in public and mental health, the same resources
we currently waste per state in the billions on FAILED mental health and prison systems,
that make people sicker and warehouse people in prisons and on drugs, can be used
to fund service providers, facilities and development to support universal care!

Read about Taiwan healthcare, like our ACA. Obama didn't pull this out in night of smoking pot, he investigated what other countries are doing about healthcare. We need Medicare for all. Call it universal healthcare, what ever you want. The Pubs will not have Obama be tied to it. Their plan will be no plan, you will be on your own, mandatory funding of HSA and they will be mandatory. There was a reason for SS and Medicare, and if anything , there is a greater need today, since the capitalist are now in charge and could care less about the middle income or poor.

Sorry Penelope
A. Taiwan is the equivalent of ONE STATE, where Texas alone is 19 times bigger in size.
You are talking about a fairly homogeneous STATE.

So YES if CA or TX agrees on a plan, they can implement this with consent of taxpaying citizens.
But this isn't the same as taking a plan that Texas agrees to and imposing it on the other 49 states.

B. NOTE also that CA tends to be liberal/progressive and TX conservative.
So you would be imposing one state religion or belief on a state of a different religion or belief.

Wouldn't it be ideal to go by PARTY. And allow
PARTY members and reps PER STATE to represent their platform
both statewide and national
so they CAN have a HOMOGENEOUS plan they ALL AGREE Represents their BELIEFS.

That would mean even if Texas is split between
liberal Democrats who want prochoice and right to health care
vs.
conservative Republicans who want free market and right to life
BOTH groups could support their OWN plans without interference or imposition by the other!
Wow, what a concept, right? to let people have CHOICE of their own beliefs and programs?

And this CAN be coordinated by state and also nationally, "similar" to federal govt in reaching across states, but protecting given freedom of citizens and groups to decide their own terms and not be under one policy only.

Why not? Don't you think that is better than trying to force one way or the other on EVERYONE???

 

[emilynghiem]

Yes we know the far left hates anything not part of the far left religion!

No interested in your new age , old age healing stuff. I went through all that new age/ old age, stuff in my 20's.

Yes we know the far left hates anything not part of the far left religion!

Here’s How Much Obamacare Premiums Are Rising in All 50 States

Obamacare was supposed to be cheaper, yet it is now causing people to decide whether to pay for health insurance or eat!

It is a disaster and only a far left drone would not see it!

Do you have insurance, and have you been to the site, or are you just spouting the Pub talking points?

Yes you prove that you are a far left drone!

The link and all other news outlets prove that Obamacare is a failure and is far more expensive than how it was sold to the public..

Yes I know you will ignore reality in favor of your far left religious dogma!

No it proves nothing, insurance go up, and in those states where the Pubs fought it tooth and nail it has taken the biggest hit. Pubs actually make the country go its knees when in office, why because Pubs do not want to pay taxes. This discussion is over, because I'm a fan of the ACA and it would of been great if not for the Pubs.

Dear Penelope
You leave out the reason GOP want to reduce taxes ON SOCIAL PROGRAMS
is to maximize investing in programs directly instead of depending on govt.

The GOP has no problem paying for military and defense.
So let them pay for that,
and let Democrats pay for soft social programs and welfare.
And both will be happy not to pay for the other group's priorities!

 

[Kosh]

Yes we know the far left hates anything not part of the far left religion!

No interested in your new age , old age healing stuff. I went through all that new age/ old age, stuff in my 20's.

Yes we know the far left hates anything not part of the far left religion!

Here’s How Much Obamacare Premiums Are Rising in All 50 States

Obamacare was supposed to be cheaper, yet it is now causing people to decide whether to pay for health insurance or eat!

It is a disaster and only a far left drone would not see it!

Do you have insurance, and have you been to the site, or are you just spouting the Pub talking points?

Yes you prove that you are a far left drone!

The link and all other news outlets prove that Obamacare is a failure and is far more expensive than how it was sold to the public..

Yes I know you will ignore reality in favor of your far left religious dogma!

No it proves nothing, insurance go up, and in those states where the Pubs fought it tooth and nail it has taken the biggest hit. Pubs actually make the country go its knees when in office, why because Pubs do not want to pay taxes. This discussion is over, because I'm a fan of the ACA and it would of been great if not for the Pubs.

Yes it does it proves that the recent rise is attributed to the law knows as Obamacare!

Only a far left drone would not see that!

But once again you hopped on your debunked far left religious narrative and lost again!

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear Kosh and Penelope
If we can all agree it is far left religious doctrine,
that's enough to argue to SEPARATE IT FROM GOVT.

We don't have to agree whose beliefs are right or wrong
to ARGUE TO SEPARATE THESE.

And not have GOVT abused to endorse and enforce
ONE SET of beliefs while penalizing the other.

Let BOTH sets pursue their OWN terms and conditions,
and let federal dollars be apportioned proportionally to
states to divide between their citizens of different beliefs.

These can be organized by party per state/district, similar to Electoral votes
distributed per state.

Take a vote on which health care plans people BELIEVE IN,
divide the Electoral votes over the Districts, and distribute
tax dollars per state based on which plans are approved for that State per District.

I want the government out of my health insurance and let me go back and negotiate my own deal with the insurance company of my choice, like I can do with car insurance. Let it go across state lines so it will be cheaper and more affordable to everyone!

There are really only a few large health insurance companies, and before the ACA a IC paid lots. The reason HI is high is do to not making it mandatory. When companies are in charge they jack the price up. Clinton would of fixed the ACA, which needed some tinkering , but she never got the chance and neither did Obama. Everyone , every the poor has a right to have a family dr. and not have to go to the ers. There are many diseases and conditions that require medical care and would be best if monitored regularly, but the Pubs can't have that. Kick a dog to the street is what they want.

Dear Penelope it can still be fixed by transferring the given exchanges and mandates
to Democrats to reform and make sustainable. I suggest by combining this with prison
reform, and converting prisons into medical treatment, research and service programs
for education, training and internships in public and mental health, the same resources
we currently waste per state in the billions on FAILED mental health and prison systems,
that make people sicker and warehouse people in prisons and on drugs, can be used
to fund service providers, facilities and development to support universal care!

Read about Taiwan healthcare, like our ACA. Obama didn't pull this out in night of smoking pot, he investigated what other countries are doing about healthcare. We need Medicare for all. Call it universal healthcare, what ever you want. The Pubs will not have Obama be tied to it. Their plan will be no plan, you will be on your own, mandatory funding of HSA and they will be mandatory. There was a reason for SS and Medicare, and if anything , there is a greater need today, since the capitalist are now in charge and could care less about the middle income or poor.

Obamacare has nothing to do with anything except being a step toward single payer!

And what works somewhere else usually doe snot work in the US..

The US has the most diverse population of any nation, a one size fits all will never work in the US..

That is why you far left drones fail with each and every post!

Thank you Kosh
Penelope that's two votes for the "US is too diverse"
to compare to "one plan that works for Taiwan" (which again is 1/20 the size of Texas alone)

However, if all cities and states like Taiwan agre e on a health plan,
WHY NOT allow these LIKEMINDED city states or parties to COLLECTIVELY
combine resources and GET INSURANCE DISCOUNTS FOR THEIR MEMBERS!

You are on the right track. Penelope
This can be done by FREE CHOICE and doesn't have to be forced by federal law on all citizens.

With 3 million more mostly in CA and NY voting for Clinton and progressive policies,
isn't that enough between CA, NY and Democrats in TX to pay for a collective policy
that is OPTIONAL to buy into and sustain??? Why can't Soros and the Clinton Foundation
set this up and manage it for THOSE MEMBERS WHO AGREE.
if Greens got Soros help to pay 5-7 million for recounts, why not set up health care coops directly?
Wouldn't the Gates Foundation help? What other contributors would invest in making this work?

Why not take the federal exchange program, make it optional so Democrats who want to save it can pay back the federal money spent on it that other taxpayers reject, then expand on it to cover ENROLLMENT of all prison and immigrant populations in order to manage ALL social benefits, education and job training, and health service costs for the populations that WANT to be represented and served through govt this way. Let Democrats take that over, and let GOP handle military, vets and VA reform they prefer to pay for and correct through their taxes and proposals.

 

[emilynghiem]

ADD francoHFW to Penelope's thread

Can you prove that State laws on auto insurance
are the same or different from Federal laws on health care insurance?

Can we settle this argument?

 

[emilynghiem]

Hi Penelope and also francoHFW

Thank you both for speaking up and taking responsibility for defending and explaining your positions.
What you have convinced me of is that SOME people LIKE YOU
DO NOT BELIEVE you have equal security of health care provisions and protections
WITHOUT IT BEING GUARANTEED THROUGH FEDERAL GOVT AS A RIGHT.

In fact, you believe this is so inherent, you do not think it requires a Constitutional process
to amend and write it into the federal Constitution as a statutory right. You believe it is just natural common sense
and does not need to be justified legally or politically.

While I understand and respect the fact you hold these beliefs inherently,
I still do not believe you or anyone else has authority to impose YOUR BELIEFS
about health care and govt ON ANYONE ELSE WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT,
AND DUE PROCESS PROTECTING THEIR CIVIL LIBERTIES THEY EQUALLY BELIEVE ARE INHERENT AS WELL.

So what we have are TWO competing beliefs, which I hold are equally protected by law.
Neither one can be imposed to the detriment of the other, if we are going to uphold EQUAL Constitutional
standards and protections for ALL PEOPLE REGARDLESS of their beliefs or creeds.

So I will include this point in letters to Congress members, the Texas Governor, and the new incoming President,
that I will support a health care plan that recognizes, supports and protects EQUAL CHOICE to
invest and manage health care at either the city, county, state, or federal levels where any taxes
paid by taxpayers for health care can be paid at whatever level of govt those citizens believes represents their interests.

I will further recommend that a system be set up through the federal reserve, for borrowing or lending resources to cover the
demands of health care, where the citizens opting to manage their health care administration at that level work with
their party or govt representatives to account for and cover those costs, so they agree what methods to use.

If people cannot agree, I further suggest giving taxpayers the option of delegating taxes for health care BY PARTY,
so that ALL beliefs can be respected and organized in large enough numbers collectively to support a plan without imposing on others.

Some policies involving "conflicts in beliefs" I most STRONGLY recommend
dividing by party in order to reorganize state and federal budgets to pay for health care:
1. abortion, right to life, right to choice, birth control
2. death penalty, restorative justice, restitution and rehabilitation
3. drug policies, spiritual healing to treat addictions and abuse issues, and medical
research to prove and provide alternatives to pharmaceutical dependence
4. right to health care through either govt, business, free market, charity, nonprofit, educational,
religious, political or secular institutions

I believe that by recognizing and EMBRACING the different beliefs on this (and other issues)
we can best protect and serve ALL citizens without discrimination on the basis of creed or belief.

Thank you for your honest responses and attempts to explain your positions.
I find that these are based on your beliefs, and cannot be changed by rational arguments.
The same way atheists and believers cannot change their beliefs by arguing back and forth,
neither can political beliefs be changed if that is what each individual believes by their nature.

So I will recommend that this approach to including all beliefs, and protecting them from
infringement by and on each other, be taken seriously by all members of Congress and Govt on ALL LEVELS.

Thank you for contributing to this conclusion.
I hope more govt officials will listen and come
to accept and acknowledge the same.

We can't change our beliefs nor force others to by govt mandates.
So if I want my beliefs respected and protected by law,
the same protections should be enforced for you and others of different beliefs equally.

None of us has the right to abuse govt to force our beliefs on anyone else.
So that's what I will report back to govt representatives and recommend
a system of choice, between local and federal levels, and a system of investing and lending freely,
so that any gaps in budgets can be resolved without forcing anyone to pay for policies against their core beliefs.

francoHFW I will also recommend to both parties that
* those who take a more conservative approach to limited govt
focus on "VA and military reform" (including restitution for vet fraud or abuses of military contracts)
to pay for health care services, reform and development with the money saved
while
* those who take a more liberal approach to govt managed health care
focus on "prison and criminal justice reform and corrections" (including insurance fraud, medical malpractice,
and corporate abuses of govt for private profit by conflicting insurance or pharmaceutical interests at taxpayer expense),
to reduce waste, crime and corruption with spending on failed
mental health and criminal corrections programs,
and to REWARD districts and states with the public funds saved
by investing those resources into building teaching
hospitals, clinics and medical education and outreach programs
to provide the services to meet the demands of their populations.

I believe these reforms can be compelled as an alternative to the individual mandates.
So that only those who COMMIT CRIMES can be compelled to pay restitution,
and quit mistreating "all citizens as freeloaders" which is violating due process for
law abiding citizens who committed NO CRIMES that warrant losing our liberties.

I don't know if you will ever get this point francoHFW
But I will put it out there, and hope that enough people will get it
so we don't punish ALL citizens by losing free choice
just because govt hasn't set up means of enforcing laws for ACTUAL VIOLATORS who are freeloading off the public.

If we don't COMPEL govt to do this, to seek reimbursement from WRONGDOERS,
the "politically convenient" shortcut will continue to be to PASS THE CHARGES AND DEBTS TO "law abiding taxpayers"
and punish those who comply with laws. While the real criminals get away with costing us millions if not billions that govt fails to collect.

If we are going after the freeloaders, we shouldn't punish the law abiding citizens and accuse the wrong people.
I support better ways that target the actual wrongdoers, or else we won't deter the wrongdoers and abuses
if we just "pass the cost to law abiding citizens" and make taxpayers PAY for the crimes of others!!

 

[HenryBHough]

Actually there is at least one state that does not require purchase of automobile insurance. I recall that being the case in California but it has been many years since I was young and foolish enough to live there. The alternative was to post a sort of bond - "self insurance" with the DMV. Proof that you had enough cash in reserve to cover the cost of any judgement up to the mandated minimums required for all vehicles.

It was very popular with companies having moderate size fleets of vehicles.

I doubt this could work for "health insurance" as there is NO provision in the "self insurance" laws for subsidies to those not having the required minimum reserve.

Wait...because I understand that liberals are unequipped to do event he most basic web search I will provide a link - but draw the line at writing instructions for using it:

Alternatives to Car Insurance | DMV.org