Penalty for not buying insurance.

[Penelope]

I see this is an old thread, so lets say you are in an auto accident , should they bring you to the er or just let you die,

and if they bring you to the er to save your life due to a fractured hip and broken pelvis , while in the hosp for your broken hip and pelvis they also discover you have abnormal lab work and doing a scan for your ribs see you also have a spot in your breast and a lymph node is enlarged in your armpit, the dx is breast cancer. They also suspect adult onset diabetes.

What do you do??

Bring it in for an oil change, and you need a front-end alignment, radiator coolant flush, brake job, and if you don't PAY for all that work you find out someone has slit your brakehose partway through with a knife, it bursts open on the highway and you can't stop.

I asked what you do, and you bring up autos. I want to know what do you do since this thread is about the penalty for not having health ins.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

There has been a penalty for not buying car insurance for as long as I can remember. You are forced to buy it.

Why is healthcare different?

Nobody is forced to buy automobile insurance.

 

[Penelope]

There has been a penalty for not buying car insurance for as long as I can remember. You are forced to buy it.

Why is healthcare different?

Nobody is forced to buy automobile insurance.

No one is forced to buy an auto or forced to drive , but when you were born you came with a body.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

There has been a penalty for not buying car insurance for as long as I can remember. You are forced to buy it.

Why is healthcare different?

Nobody is forced to buy automobile insurance.

No one is forced to buy an auto or forced to drive , but when you were born you came with a body.

Thanks for the update.

 

[dblack]

I see this is an old thread, so lets say you are in an auto accident , should they bring you to the er or just let you die,

and if they bring you to the er to save your life due to a fractured hip and broken pelvis , while in the hosp for your broken hip and pelvis they also discover you have abnormal lab work and doing a scan for your ribs see you also have a spot in your breast and a lymph node is enlarged in your armpit, the dx is breast cancer. They also suspect adult onset diabetes.

What do you do??

I'm not going to run down an endless 'what-if' list, but in general you do the same thing you do with all the other tragedies you might face in life. You figure out a way to deal with it. Or you don't.

Can I ask you, what do you see as the purpose of government?

 

[Penelope]

I see this is an old thread, so lets say you are in an auto accident , should they bring you to the er or just let you die,

and if they bring you to the er to save your life due to a fractured hip and broken pelvis , while in the hosp for your broken hip and pelvis they also discover you have abnormal lab work and doing a scan for your ribs see you also have a spot in your breast and a lymph node is enlarged in your armpit, the dx is breast cancer. They also suspect adult onset diabetes.

What do you do??

I'm not going to run down an endless 'what-if' list, but in general you do the same thing you do with all the other tragedies you might face in life. You figure out a way to deal with it. Or you don't.

Can I ask you, what do you see as the purpose of government?

Nope, the title of this thread is about mandatory health ins or pay a fine.

 

[Penelope]

There has been a penalty for not buying car insurance for as long as I can remember. You are forced to buy it.

Why is healthcare different?

Nobody is forced to buy automobile insurance.

No one is forced to buy an auto or forced to drive , but when you were born you came with a body.

Thanks for the update.

No problem.

 

[dblack]

I'm not going to run down an endless 'what-if' list, but in general you do the same thing you do with all the other tragedies you might face in life. You figure out a way to deal with it. Or you don't.

Can I ask you, what do you see as the purpose of government?

Nope, the title of this thread is about mandatory health ins or pay a fine.

? OK. Ignorance is bliss I guess.

 

[justinacolmena]

Nobody is forced to buy automobile insurance

Listen up, dipstick buddy. You're in auto denial.

You gotta go to work in the morning. The residential rent is way, way too high for your income on the city block where you work, and it's not even safe to hang around the area after hours. The city bus doesn't run on time, and I'm dead sure you aren't piloting your personal helicopter without insurance, either.

Grand theft of an automobile is a felony.

 

[emilynghiem]

Mandatory health insurance pays for mandatory C-section childbirth, mandatory circumcision, mandatory tooth-pulling, mandatory incarceration of social undesirables and the mentally ill, and all sorts of other mandatory butchery by doctors whose medical competence lies in the direction of brutality and murder rather than healing and life-saving.

If the health insurance available on the market truly offered anything whatsoever to our benefit, then surely we as the "consumers" of such marvelous services would be intelligent enough to seek them out on our own without having them forced upon us under color of law.

I see this is an old thread, so lets say you are in an auto accident , should they bring you to the er or just let you die,

and if they bring you to the er to save your life due to a fractured hip and broken pelvis , while in the hosp for your broken hip and pelvis they also discover you have abnormal lab work and doing a scan for your ribs see you also have a spot in your breast and a lymph node is enlarged in your armpit, the dx is breast cancer. They also suspect adult onset diabetes.

What do you do??

RE: What do you do?

You hope and pray you are not like the little boy in the UK
who died under the decisions made by the Public Hospital authorities
NOT to treat him, NOT to save his life according to the wishes of his Parents, and even offers from the Pope
to move him back to be with his family.

Penelope

Free will / Free choice in health care, including reproductive health, belongs to the person/individual. Penelope if YOU want to trust and give up your financial and medical decisions to GOVT management, BE MY GUEST

But you have ZERO right to dictate this choice for OTHER PEOPLE.

If YOU don't want to pay for those other people then write them out of the terms of service.

Nothing is stopping Democrats, Liberals, Progressives Greens and even Libertarians
from setting up our own Health Care coops, our own Associations and managing this
ourselves. Except for this INSISTENCE that it be FORCED on everyone else through
party politics and federal govt.

I am still trying to educate and liberate enough fellow progressives to focus on setting up health care WITHOUT FORCING IT ON OTHERS through FEDERAL GOVT who REFUSE because "forcing it through federal govt' is AGAINST Constitutional beliefs.

What does it take for that to register?

If you Penelope were FORCED to register and be under terms requiring 'spiritual healing' that YOU don't believe in, you would NATURALLY REFUSE to let "Federal Govt" be abused to FORCE and DICTATE this against your will and beliefs.

Why can't Liberals like you UNDERSTAND that Conservative/Constitutionalists
DON'T BELIEVE in being FORCED by GOVT to run and fund their health care through govt AGAINST THEIR WILL?

If they consent to SOME TERMS, such as through the STATE govt not federal,
then allow them to CONSENT to just THOSE TERMS.

But that does not give lblanket license to push ALL TERMS on others against their beliefs.

Penelope that's like saying if prochoice people like us agree to banning abortion at 3 months,
well, then we do agree to let govt regulate, and that means we agree to let govt ban all abortion and criminalize women in violation of rights of due process.

NO, that doesn't give people the blanket right to start dictating laws regarding abortion.

We still have to CONSENT to policies and procedures.

So if people don't CONSENT to terms of health care through govt and how or how not to pay for this financially, the Constitutionalists like me are arguing for people's free choice as individuals NOT to be violated by the political beliefs of one party over another.

What does it take to EXPLAIN this to my fellow liberals who are acting ANTI CHOICE
by pushing health care laws through federal govt AGAINST THE BELIEFS of others?

Do you not understand or believe those are REAL BELIEFS?
Is THAT why you don't respect Constitutional rights and beliefs of other people?

Please explain how we can reach an understanding on this.
It is baffling to me that political beliefs can be so deeply engrained
that people cannot see them for what they are.

 

[dblack]

I see this is an old thread, so lets say you are in an auto accident , should they bring you to the er or just let you die,

and if they bring you to the er to save your life due to a fractured hip and broken pelvis , while in the hosp for your broken hip and pelvis they also discover you have abnormal lab work and doing a scan for your ribs see you also have a spot in your breast and a lymph node is enlarged in your armpit, the dx is breast cancer. They also suspect adult onset diabetes.

What do you do??

I'm not going to run down an endless 'what-if' list, but in general you do the same thing you do with all the other tragedies you might face in life. You figure out a way to deal with it. Or you don't.

Can I ask you, what do you see as the purpose of government?

Nope, the title of this thread is about mandatory health ins or pay a fine.

Yes. And the question is pertinent. In my view, forcing other people to buy things for your convenience is NOT the purpose of government.

 

[emilynghiem]

I see this is an old thread, so lets say you are in an auto accident , should they bring you to the er or just let you die,

and if they bring you to the er to save your life due to a fractured hip and broken pelvis , while in the hosp for your broken hip and pelvis they also discover you have abnormal lab work and doing a scan for your ribs see you also have a spot in your breast and a lymph node is enlarged in your armpit, the dx is breast cancer. They also suspect adult onset diabetes.

What do you do??

I'm not going to run down an endless 'what-if' list, but in general you do the same thing you do with all the other tragedies you might face in life. You figure out a way to deal with it. Or you don't.

Can I ask you, what do you see as the purpose of government?

Nope, the title of this thread is about mandatory health ins or pay a fine.

Yes. And the question is pertinent. In my view, forcing other people to buy things for your convenience is NOT the purpose of government.

Dear dblack and Penelope
1. I'd say the people like Penelope have the right to force themselves to terms under govt they agree to. Similar to Muslims who agree to submit to the Five Pillars, or to give up pork, because THEY have faith in these things. Sure, if YOU want to practice that through govt, fine, but can't impose it on others. Especially not through govt!

2. Penelope also has the right NOT to pay for ER and hospitals
under terms she doesn't agree to either! If she doesn't want to pay for people
who don't agree to insurance mandates, then let Democrats set up their
own system and terms and only pay for members who AGREE to those terms for THOSE govt contractual services.

3. Then apply this same to Conservatives who believe in privatizing health
care for Vets, for elderly etc. and managing facilities publicly but the programs through nonprofit charities or businesses
run by free choice of local owners residents and taxpayers under terms THOSE people and payers/payees agree to.

There is no reason we cannot separate these ways of funding and terms of health care.
We already have free choice to expand and develop more clinics and teaching hospitals
through EFFECTIVE programs such as Doctors without Borders or St. Jude's Children's Hospital which is an excellent model.

So let govt run health care believers fund their own terms and policies through their own registration system
they elect and pay for.

And let private groups set up and run theirs.

There is no reason to force either group under the terms of the other approach.

In fact, in order to be Constitutional protective, fair and equally inclusive of ALL people of ALL beliefs,
it becomes legally necessary to separate these two approaches
so they DON'T abuse govt to impose one way or another on the wrong people who believe the other way!

Congressman Rand Paul is supportive of the idea of ASSOCIATIONS that would allow
the best of govt stability and guarantee of health care while still respecting free choice of individuals and states
to manage their own resources without unnecessary/unconstitutional interference by federal govt.

Sean Hannity supports health care coops and so do the progressive Greens including
Paul Glover who teaches how to set up democratically locally managed health care "insurance."

It isn't easy, but it takes work to set up enough clinics and teaching hospital programs/internships/residencies
to serve the greater population in need.

So if it's going to take that much work, why compound it by fighting over federal vs state vs private jurisdiction?
Give taxpayers equal choice of funding whichever means they support, and develop ALL These venues.

But by FREE CHOICE of funding, so we quit fighting over that point.
Set up tax returns and tax forms where taxpayers check which boxes they want to fund,
for federal, state, party or private means of administering terms and provisions for health care.

Then we can all get to work building these programs through all venues instead of fighting over who is going to force which way on which people
which is UNCONSTITUTIONAL anyway!

 

[Penelope]

I see this is an old thread, so lets say you are in an auto accident , should they bring you to the er or just let you die,

and if they bring you to the er to save your life due to a fractured hip and broken pelvis , while in the hosp for your broken hip and pelvis they also discover you have abnormal lab work and doing a scan for your ribs see you also have a spot in your breast and a lymph node is enlarged in your armpit, the dx is breast cancer. They also suspect adult onset diabetes.

What do you do??

I'm not going to run down an endless 'what-if' list, but in general you do the same thing you do with all the other tragedies you might face in life. You figure out a way to deal with it. Or you don't.

Can I ask you, what do you see as the purpose of government?

Nope, the title of this thread is about mandatory health ins or pay a fine.

Yes. And the question is pertinent. In my view, forcing other people to buy things for your convenience is NOT the purpose of government.

Dear dblack and Penelope
1. I'd say the people like Penelope have the right to force themselves to terms under govt they agree to. Similar to Muslims who agree to submit to the Five Pillars, or to give up pork, because THEY have faith in these things. Sure, if YOU want to practice that through govt, fine, but can't impose it on others. Especially not through govt!

2. Penelope also has the right NOT to pay for ER and hospitals
under terms she doesn't agree to either! If she doesn't want to pay for people
who don't agree to insurance mandates, then let Democrats set up their
own system and terms and only pay for members who AGREE to those terms for THOSE govt contractual services.

3. Then apply this same to Conservatives who believe in privatizing health
care for Vets, for elderly etc. and managing facilities publicly but the programs through nonprofit charities or businesses
run by free choice of local owners residents and taxpayers under terms THOSE people and payers/payees agree to.

There is no reason we cannot separate these ways of funding and terms of health care.
We already have free choice to expand and develop more clinics and teaching hospitals
through EFFECTIVE programs such as Doctors without Borders or St. Jude's Children's Hospital which is an excellent model.

So let govt run health care believers fund their own terms and policies through their own registration system
they elect and pay for.

And let private groups set up and run theirs.

There is no reason to force either group under the terms of the other approach.

In fact, in order to be Constitutional protective, fair and equally inclusive of ALL people of ALL beliefs,
it becomes legally necessary to separate these two approaches
so they DON'T abuse govt to impose one way or another on the wrong people who believe the other way!

Congressman Rand Paul is supportive of the idea of ASSOCIATIONS that would allow
the best of govt stability and guarantee of health care while still respecting free choice of individuals and states
to manage their own resources without unnecessary/unconstitutional interference by federal govt.

Sean Hannity supports health care coops and so do the progressive Greens including
Paul Glover who teaches how to set up democratically locally managed health care "insurance."

It isn't easy, but it takes work to set up enough clinics and teaching hospital programs/internships/residencies
to serve the greater population in need.

So if it's going to take that much work, why compound it by fighting over federal vs state vs private jurisdiction?
Give taxpayers equal choice of funding whichever means they support, and develop ALL These venues.

But by FREE CHOICE of funding, so we quit fighting over that point.
Set up tax returns and tax forms where taxpayers check which boxes they want to fund,
for federal, state, party or private means of administering terms and provisions for health care.

Then we can all get to work building these programs through all venues instead of fighting over who is going to force which way on which people
which is UNCONSTITUTIONAL anyway!

I have insurance , and I don't believe in faith healing which is fakery. So go without and we get to pay for your visits to er and your healthcare.

I wouldn't belong to anything Hannity belongs to and I certainty wouldn't join a Christian healing crap.

 

[froggy]

I see this is an old thread, so lets say you are in an auto accident , should they bring you to the er or just let you die,

and if they bring you to the er to save your life due to a fractured hip and broken pelvis , while in the hosp for your broken hip and pelvis they also discover you have abnormal lab work and doing a scan for your ribs see you also have a spot in your breast and a lymph node is enlarged in your armpit, the dx is breast cancer. They also suspect adult onset diabetes.

What do you do??

Bring it in for an oil change, and you need a front-end alignment, radiator coolant flush, brake job, and if you don't PAY for all that work you find out someone has slit your brakehose partway through with a knife, it bursts open on the highway and you can't stop.

I asked what you do, and you bring up autos. I want to know what do you do since this thread is about the penalty for not having health ins.

The Senate's Tax Bill Eliminates the Individual Mandate for Health Insurance. Here's What You Need to Know

 

[emilynghiem]

I see this is an old thread, so lets say you are in an auto accident , should they bring you to the er or just let you die,

and if they bring you to the er to save your life due to a fractured hip and broken pelvis , while in the hosp for your broken hip and pelvis they also discover you have abnormal lab work and doing a scan for your ribs see you also have a spot in your breast and a lymph node is enlarged in your armpit, the dx is breast cancer. They also suspect adult onset diabetes.

What do you do??

I'm not going to run down an endless 'what-if' list, but in general you do the same thing you do with all the other tragedies you might face in life. You figure out a way to deal with it. Or you don't.

Can I ask you, what do you see as the purpose of government?

Nope, the title of this thread is about mandatory health ins or pay a fine.

Yes. And the question is pertinent. In my view, forcing other people to buy things for your convenience is NOT the purpose of government.

Dear dblack and Penelope
1. I'd say the people like Penelope have the right to force themselves to terms under govt they agree to. Similar to Muslims who agree to submit to the Five Pillars, or to give up pork, because THEY have faith in these things. Sure, if YOU want to practice that through govt, fine, but can't impose it on others. Especially not through govt!

2. Penelope also has the right NOT to pay for ER and hospitals
under terms she doesn't agree to either! If she doesn't want to pay for people
who don't agree to insurance mandates, then let Democrats set up their
own system and terms and only pay for members who AGREE to those terms for THOSE govt contractual services.

3. Then apply this same to Conservatives who believe in privatizing health
care for Vets, for elderly etc. and managing facilities publicly but the programs through nonprofit charities or businesses
run by free choice of local owners residents and taxpayers under terms THOSE people and payers/payees agree to.

There is no reason we cannot separate these ways of funding and terms of health care.
We already have free choice to expand and develop more clinics and teaching hospitals
through EFFECTIVE programs such as Doctors without Borders or St. Jude's Children's Hospital which is an excellent model.

So let govt run health care believers fund their own terms and policies through their own registration system
they elect and pay for.

And let private groups set up and run theirs.

There is no reason to force either group under the terms of the other approach.

In fact, in order to be Constitutional protective, fair and equally inclusive of ALL people of ALL beliefs,
it becomes legally necessary to separate these two approaches
so they DON'T abuse govt to impose one way or another on the wrong people who believe the other way!

Congressman Rand Paul is supportive of the idea of ASSOCIATIONS that would allow
the best of govt stability and guarantee of health care while still respecting free choice of individuals and states
to manage their own resources without unnecessary/unconstitutional interference by federal govt.

Sean Hannity supports health care coops and so do the progressive Greens including
Paul Glover who teaches how to set up democratically locally managed health care "insurance."

It isn't easy, but it takes work to set up enough clinics and teaching hospital programs/internships/residencies
to serve the greater population in need.

So if it's going to take that much work, why compound it by fighting over federal vs state vs private jurisdiction?
Give taxpayers equal choice of funding whichever means they support, and develop ALL These venues.

But by FREE CHOICE of funding, so we quit fighting over that point.
Set up tax returns and tax forms where taxpayers check which boxes they want to fund,
for federal, state, party or private means of administering terms and provisions for health care.

Then we can all get to work building these programs through all venues instead of fighting over who is going to force which way on which people
which is UNCONSTITUTIONAL anyway!

I have insurance , and I don't believe in faith healing which is fakery. So go without and we get to pay for your visits to er and your healthcare.

I wouldn't belong to anything Hannity belongs to and I certainty wouldn't join a Christian healing crap.

We've gone over this before Penelope
and I even started a BULLRING Thread to resolve this:

A. You don't get the DIFFERENCE between fake faith healing
and natural science of spiritual healing.
B. You don't get the DIFFERENCE between STATE laws on insurance
and FEDERAL GOVT mandating this for individuals instead of people voting on it per state.

Penelope your ignorance, whether willful or negligent/innocent,
does not give you the right to abuse govt to violate the rights of others
who have different information and more knowledge/experience than you do.

Just because YOU Penelope and others don't get the difference between these,
which are like NIGHT AND DAY
doesn't give you the right to impose YOUR views of one on the other as if they are the same.

Penelope, do we need to go back to the BULLRING and address the DIFFERENCE between
A. state laws and representation of the people vs. federal laws and the limits on govt
B. fake faith healing that I stated before is dangerous and deadly
vs. natural spiritual healing that is saves lives and restores health to body and mind and even human relations,
is completely natural and consistent with science, because it works by free will

Penelope do you believe in recovery therapy?
That when people recover from abuse, whether substance or relationship type abuse,
they use a form of therapy where the PERSON agrees to change
and they are able to start identifying memories and causes of the addictive or enabling behavior,
and take steps to remove that negative influence from their minds, habits and lives
so the pattern breaks and quits repeating (even if they relapse over time while breaking out of this cycle).

Do you believe that it takes free will of the human mind
to recover and heal from abuse?

Do you discount that process as well, do you think that's fake?

Please advise if you don't believe people have changed their minds and lives this way.
Or if this is just a case of YOU not wanting to change YOUR mind,
and not believing other people will "by free will" so that's why you
believe in abusing govt to force people to comply with YOUR beliefs.

Which is causing the problem here?
And how do we resolve that Penelope?
With another BULLRING thread?

How about a million dollar bet, or 10 million that
there is a DIFFERENCE between the
* fake faith healing that you and I both agree is FALSE
* truly effective natural spiritual healing (such as the therapy
used in recovery from grief, addiction and/or abuse) that
works by free will and is not a risk, but beneficial to people's health

Penelope I can name three friends who have benefited from
various degrees of this therapy that has saved their lives and relations.
1. One used the AA method plus Buddhist meditation to forgive and
stay sober and then shared this with other inmates who found it
so successful they told all their friends, and their group grew 10 times
as large from 250 people to 2500 because the spiritual healing works.
2. One friend prayed twice with my friend Olivia to break through the
causes of addiction, once when he was overcoming Diabetes II and
baffled the doctors who took extra blood samples to study why he beat
this when other people couldn't, and the second time after he realized
that his issues stemmed from grudges he carried back from his parents
and needed to get rid of that first. So he called and prayed with Olivia to
break the "generational curses" or whatever you call this deeper level
(Buddhists call it identifying and renouncing past like karma so you follow
the dharma instead). My friend not only got into better health, but got into
better relations where he no longer repeats the patterns of the past. He
also lightened up and quit focusing on his resentment and rejection of
"Conservative Christians" like Bush that he hated so much. The forgiveness
heals all levels, so anything that is related to past unforgiveness has to
change as well in the process, and it affects body mind and spirit as well
as relations we have with other people which forgiveness allows to heal
instead of holding on to ill will.

3. another friend of mine who sometimes agrees that the spiritual healing
helped him and other times disagrees and says no it didn't and he did everything himself
is probably the most sympathetic and in agreement with you.
However, BEFORE the spiritual healing, this friend was NOT able to control or contain the "demonic rage" in his head
he himself described as demons, that compelled him to drink, smoke do all kind of drugs
to suppress it, and made him unable to comply with doctors trying to help him.

AFTER I finally got him to go with me to Olivia to pray to remove this "demonic" obsession/oppression
that was tied to extreme abuse by his father and grandmother, then he went through the VERY painful
process of extraction, of cutting away all those layers, everything that was built up in his mind and
memory and relations, inside and out, that was tied to the cycle of abuse repeating itself.
And that means practically everything. All of that was getting gutted out of him.
He said it felt like "rape" which is exactly what the patient said, too, in Dr. Peck's book
when he tested this procedure on schizophrenic patients to successfully remove their demon voices and personalities.

I remember a conversation I had with my friend that if he didn't like this procedure
he would have to tell those "demons" himself they can't stick around, because if
he lets them in and they get out of hand again, the ONLY process or authority
they obey is this "Christian business" of invoking Christ Jesus to cast them out.
He hated that so much, he decided the demons "weren't real after all" and he
quit telling himself they were. So he says the anxiety and all that mess is still
there, and he has to work with meds and exercise to reduce the meds so he
can gain control back of his body and his mind. One time he said to me the
prayer DID help him get to the point where he could CHOOSE to not let these
"demons in his mind or imagination" take over control; other times he says no,
he did that HIMSELF. But both times I reminded him he wasn't able to do that
before the healing prayer.

After the prayer, he was able to work with the right doctors to get the right diagnoses
and to comply with their instructions, even EXCEED their expectations. Before he was
depressed and miserable that he had no control over any of these that were contradicting
what he was able to do.

Today, my friend reported that he AMAZED his doctor how much progress he's made in
recovery and instead of being on the deathwish list, he is able to focus and work harder
at all the steps necessary to recover from past damage from drugs/excess medication for anxiety/depression etc.

So Penelope if you and my friend "don't believe" in spiritual healing,
even if you don't believe, my friend demonstrates it STILL WORKS.
As long as the person ACCEPTS the treatment, then just like when
antibiotics work, it still works if you apply it to the viral contagion causing the illness.

You don't have to believe in GRAVITY for gravity to work for you.
But that doesn't mean you have the right to MISREPRESENT and misinform others
by preaching to everyone that gravity is fake and not to believe the scientists or teachers teaching it.

I guess you prove the statement that nobody believe in spiritual healing
until they have seen proof of it. I only know ONE person who understood it
before researching it and finding out the full extent of how this process works afterwards.

Most people need to see proof or they just can't grasp it.
This applies to the people practicing the scientific natural type of spiritual healing:
* Dr. Phillip Goldfedder didn't believe until he saw proof
www.healingisyours.com
* Dr. Francis MacNutt thought it sounded like dark ages mysticism and not anything that
normal people like him could do until he learned and has written books and teaches
the CORRECT healing process that has been documented by a Scientific Medical
study funded by the Templeton Foundation.
(see www.christianhealingmin.org or his book HEALING that describes the
DIFFERENCE between 'dangerous fake faith healing' vs. the real natural process
* My friend Olivia learned of this process when she was healed of cancer (in her
case it was put into remission where she could have children after she was told
by doctors she would never have kids or that she was dying and to prepare to die)
and since then she has helped thousands of other people with healing of their conditions
even by praying over the phone to receive the healing power of forgiveness that changes things
* Dr. Scott Peck didn't believe this was REAL either, so after he tested it out on two
Schizophrenic patients he wrote his book "Glimpses of the Devil" about his observations
that changed his mind about the RESULTS being real and working, although he acknowledged
as a scientist he can never prove the demons or HOW the process works because it is invisible.

by the scientific method, the steps and RESPONSE in each stage CAN BE SHOWN to follow a pattern
and the recovery/healing level of the patient CAN BE ascertained, consistent with current therapy practices
that rely on observations of the patient's ability to regain control and use of their minds and normal reasoning
and emotional/behaviorial stability (vs. the out of control "demonic" personalities previous exhibited in sick patients
as he treated using these "spiritual healing" methods).

So Penelope if it isn't enough to put another BULLRING thread on here,
let's take this a step further. I will agree to contact media hosts on both
left and right, such as progressive leftwing Pacifica radio as well as rightwing
media contacts, and ask them to co host a 1-10 million dollar bet that
spiritual healing (as documented by a published medical study on RA funded
by the Templeton Foundation) that is voluntary, free, natural and harmless is
EFFECTIVE in healing body mind spirit and/or relations otherwise harmed
by longterm effects of stress related to unforgiveness; and that this is DIFFERENT
from the "faith healing" that you and I both agree is false, fake if not dangerous and/or deadly.

The witnesses I will ask these groups to support in establishing their findings
over YEARS of experience with successful healing by these methods:
* Drs. Francis and Judith MacNutt
* Dr. Phillip Goldfedder, licensed neurosurgeon who turned to spiritual healing as his main focus after finding it was more effective
at identifying and curing the CAUSES of symptoms instead of just manipulating them as a side effect
* Olivia Reiner in Houston

Are you willing to make a bet there is a DIFFERENCE
between what MacNutt's NONPROFIT outreach has been
teaching and practicing (since he first published HEALING in 1977)
and what HE AGREES WITH YOU is the 'dangerous deadly' type of
"faith healing" that is false and fake.

He teaches in his book, his practice, and all his educational outreach
and training the DIFFERENCE between the true and the false practice,
and what makes them dangerous. It states this in his book why faith
healing FAILS!!!

What is causing this problem Penelope, when the people who
practice the RIGHT kind of spiritual healing TEACH That the "false
faith healing" is dangerous, yet you continue to assume these things are the same?

Why are you insisting on that?

And do you want to make a million dollar bet
and donate it to charity that you are wrong to confuse these two things with each other?
To assume they are all the same?

If you are wrong, and you also can't get the difference between State and Federal
govt making laws about insurance, then I will ask you and ALL other supporters/voters/leaders
who think like you to accept responsibility for CHANGING the problems caused
by this willful or negligent ignorance of the difference.

So the 1 million dollar bet could grow to 10 million or 10 billion
because it affects so much change.

The nonprofit charity I would ask to be the recipient of the bet
is the progressive Pacifica Radio foundation if hosts/volunteers
there agree to cosponsor a bet and ch allenge to invest money into research
to settle this dispute over what is "fake faith healing" vs. what is
true spiritual healing, and the difference between federal govt authority
and the rights of people and the states.

You don't see the difference, but that doesn't give you or anyone
the right to impose federal govt on others who DO KNOW there is a difference.

Penelope your ignorance, whether willful or negligent/innocent,
does not give you the right to abuse govt to violate the rights of others
who have different information and more knowledge/experience than you do.

 

[Penelope]

No doubt a healthy attitude in life can ease stress , but no I will never believe in demonic possession. Stress can be relieved by other than believing in God or getting baptized , by exercise, by meditation, by a healthly diet to loose weight, but to depend on God to obtain sobriety is going to be a let down, that is why AA fails as a long term effectiveness. I would say its from hearing to all the horror stories of other like themselves that keep people off the drink or drugs.

I do not believe this:
My friend Olivia learned of this process when she was healed of cancer (in her
case it was put into remission where she could have children after she was told
by doctors she would never have kids or that she was dying and to prepare to die).

Why was she told to prepare to die, and no she could never have kids in the same sentence. What kind of CA did she have, her advancement of it, and if she has done anything physically to treat her CA.

Please do not tell these stories without back up of the medical history, diagnosis by more than one doctor with medical testing, and what treatment she had done.

I remember how, Francis McNutt, is who you believe in.

With the government out of our healthcare, except to tell us what we now do not have, it will be left up to the insurance companies, and hospital boards.

Like I have said the power of belief is very powerful, but the fact remains it reduces stress.

 

[Penelope]

* Schedule is subject to change.
* Topics that may be covered (but not limited to): Keys to Healing, Healing Our Image of God, Forgiveness, Healing in Relationships, Baptism in the Holy Spirit (including a time of praying for the release of the baptism of the Holy Spirit), Generational Healing (including a Generational Healing service), The Process of Grief and Restoration, Building Joy Capacity, and a Mother and Father Blessing service.

3 days not to include meals , lodging or transportation.

 

[froggy]

No doubt a healthy attitude in life can ease stress , but no I will never believe in demonic possession. Stress can be relieved by other than believing in God or getting baptized , by exercise, by meditation, by a healthly diet to loose weight, but to depend on God to obtain sobriety is going to be a let down, that is why AA fails as a long term effectiveness. I would say its from hearing to all the horror stories of other like themselves that keep people off the drink or drugs.

I do not believe this:
My friend Olivia learned of this process when she was healed of cancer (in her
case it was put into remission where she could have children after she was told
by doctors she would never have kids or that she was dying and to prepare to die).

Why was she told to prepare to die, and no she could never have kids in the same sentence. What kind of CA did she have, her advancement of it, and if she has done anything physically to treat her CA.

Please do not tell these stories without back up of the medical history, diagnosis by more than one doctor with medical testing, and what treatment she had done.

I remember how, Francis McNutt, is who you believe in.

With the government out of our healthcare, except to tell us what we now do not have, it will be left up to the insurance companies, and hospital boards.

Like I have said the power of belief is very powerful, but the fact remains it reduces stress.

There is no such thing as stress that is only a mind game brought on by Word of Mouth
Doctors are not God they can be wrong that's why everyone should get 2nd 3rd or 4th opinions

 

[Penelope]

No doubt a healthy attitude in life can ease stress , but no I will never believe in demonic possession. Stress can be relieved by other than believing in God or getting baptized , by exercise, by meditation, by a healthly diet to loose weight, but to depend on God to obtain sobriety is going to be a let down, that is why AA fails as a long term effectiveness. I would say its from hearing to all the horror stories of other like themselves that keep people off the drink or drugs.

I do not believe this:
My friend Olivia learned of this process when she was healed of cancer (in her
case it was put into remission where she could have children after she was told
by doctors she would never have kids or that she was dying and to prepare to die).

Why was she told to prepare to die, and no she could never have kids in the same sentence. What kind of CA did she have, her advancement of it, and if she has done anything physically to treat her CA.

Please do not tell these stories without back up of the medical history, diagnosis by more than one doctor with medical testing, and what treatment she had done.

I remember how, Francis McNutt, is who you believe in.

With the government out of our healthcare, except to tell us what we now do not have, it will be left up to the insurance companies, and hospital boards.

Like I have said the power of belief is very powerful, but the fact remains it reduces stress.

There is no such thing as stress that is only a mind game brought on by Word of Mouth
Doctors are not God they can be wrong that's why everyone should get 2nd 3rd or 4th opinions

There are a lot of medical conditions or exacerbated brought on by prolonged stress or if you prefer anxiety

 

[emilynghiem]

No doubt a healthy attitude in life can ease stress , but no I will never believe in demonic possession. Stress can be relieved by other than believing in God or getting baptized , by exercise, by meditation, by a healthly diet to loose weight, but to depend on God to obtain sobriety is going to be a let down, that is why AA fails as a long term effectiveness. I would say its from hearing to all the horror stories of other like themselves that keep people off the drink or drugs.

I do not believe this:
My friend Olivia learned of this process when she was healed of cancer (in her
case it was put into remission where she could have children after she was told
by doctors she would never have kids or that she was dying and to prepare to die).

Why was she told to prepare to die, and no she could never have kids in the same sentence. What kind of CA did she have, her advancement of it, and if she has done anything physically to treat her CA.

Please do not tell these stories without back up of the medical history, diagnosis by more than one doctor with medical testing, and what treatment she had done.

I remember how, Francis McNutt, is who you believe in.

With the government out of our healthcare, except to tell us what we now do not have, it will be left up to the insurance companies, and hospital boards.

Like I have said the power of belief is very powerful, but the fact remains it reduces stress.

Dear Penelope
As Peck also noted in his observations in his book,
no, you don't have to believe that "demonic" conditions are real.
And we can still prove that the therapy yields better results
than leaving such patients untreated. Whether or not their "demonic"
reports are real to them or delusional, or chemical misfirings in their brain,
either way Penelope, the therapy
can STILL be demonstrated to work naturally, effectively and voluntarily
to free such people regardless of what the condition is or what is causing the
disorderly or dangerous behavior (which left untreated too often becomes deadly).