Penalty for not buying insurance.

Discussion in 'ObamaCare' started by froggy, Mar 2, 2016.

  1. dblack
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    dblack Gold Member

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    Yes. And the question is pertinent. In my view, forcing other people to buy things for your convenience is NOT the purpose of government.
     
  2. emilynghiem
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    emilynghiem Constitutionalist / Universalist Supporting Member

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    Dear dblack and Penelope
    1. I'd say the people like Penelope have the right to force themselves to terms under govt they agree to. Similar to Muslims who agree to submit to the Five Pillars, or to give up pork, because THEY have faith in these things. Sure, if YOU want to practice that through govt, fine, but can't impose it on others. Especially not through govt!

    2. Penelope also has the right NOT to pay for ER and hospitals
    under terms she doesn't agree to either! If she doesn't want to pay for people
    who don't agree to insurance mandates, then let Democrats set up their
    own system and terms and only pay for members who AGREE to those terms for THOSE govt contractual services.

    3. Then apply this same to Conservatives who believe in privatizing health
    care for Vets, for elderly etc. and managing facilities publicly but the programs through nonprofit charities or businesses
    run by free choice of local owners residents and taxpayers under terms THOSE people and payers/payees agree to.

    There is no reason we cannot separate these ways of funding and terms of health care.
    We already have free choice to expand and develop more clinics and teaching hospitals
    through EFFECTIVE programs such as Doctors without Borders or St. Jude's Children's Hospital which is an excellent model.

    So let govt run health care believers fund their own terms and policies through their own registration system
    they elect and pay for.

    And let private groups set up and run theirs.

    There is no reason to force either group under the terms of the other approach.

    In fact, in order to be Constitutional protective, fair and equally inclusive of ALL people of ALL beliefs,
    it becomes legally necessary to separate these two approaches
    so they DON'T abuse govt to impose one way or another on the wrong people who believe the other way!

    Congressman Rand Paul is supportive of the idea of ASSOCIATIONS that would allow
    the best of govt stability and guarantee of health care while still respecting free choice of individuals and states
    to manage their own resources without unnecessary/unconstitutional interference by federal govt.

    Sean Hannity supports health care coops and so do the progressive Greens including
    Paul Glover who teaches how to set up democratically locally managed health care "insurance."

    It isn't easy, but it takes work to set up enough clinics and teaching hospital programs/internships/residencies
    to serve the greater population in need.

    So if it's going to take that much work, why compound it by fighting over federal vs state vs private jurisdiction?
    Give taxpayers equal choice of funding whichever means they support, and develop ALL These venues.

    But by FREE CHOICE of funding, so we quit fighting over that point.
    Set up tax returns and tax forms where taxpayers check which boxes they want to fund,
    for federal, state, party or private means of administering terms and provisions for health care.

    Then we can all get to work building these programs through all venues instead of fighting over who is going to force which way on which people
    which is UNCONSTITUTIONAL anyway!
     
  3. Penelope
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    Penelope Platinum Member

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    I have insurance , and I don't believe in faith healing which is fakery. So go without and we get to pay for your visits to er and your healthcare.

    I wouldn't belong to anything Hannity belongs to and I certainty wouldn't join a Christian healing crap.
     
  4. froggy
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    froggy Gold Member

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    The Senate's Tax Bill Eliminates the Individual Mandate for Health Insurance. Here's What You Need to Know
     
  5. emilynghiem
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    emilynghiem Constitutionalist / Universalist Supporting Member

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    We've gone over this before Penelope
    and I even started a BULLRING Thread to resolve this:

    A. You don't get the DIFFERENCE between fake faith healing
    and natural science of spiritual healing.
    B. You don't get the DIFFERENCE between STATE laws on insurance
    and FEDERAL GOVT mandating this for individuals instead of people voting on it per state.

    Penelope your ignorance, whether willful or negligent/innocent,
    does not give you the right to abuse govt to violate the rights of others
    who have different information and more knowledge/experience than you do.


    Just because YOU Penelope and others don't get the difference between these,
    which are like NIGHT AND DAY
    doesn't give you the right to impose YOUR views of one on the other as if they are the same.

    Penelope, do we need to go back to the BULLRING and address the DIFFERENCE between
    A. state laws and representation of the people vs. federal laws and the limits on govt
    B. fake faith healing that I stated before is dangerous and deadly
    vs. natural spiritual healing that is saves lives and restores health to body and mind and even human relations,
    is completely natural and consistent with science, because it works by free will

    Penelope do you believe in recovery therapy?
    That when people recover from abuse, whether substance or relationship type abuse,
    they use a form of therapy where the PERSON agrees to change
    and they are able to start identifying memories and causes of the addictive or enabling behavior,
    and take steps to remove that negative influence from their minds, habits and lives
    so the pattern breaks and quits repeating (even if they relapse over time while breaking out of this cycle).

    Do you believe that it takes free will of the human mind
    to recover and heal from abuse?

    Do you discount that process as well, do you think that's fake?

    Please advise if you don't believe people have changed their minds and lives this way.
    Or if this is just a case of YOU not wanting to change YOUR mind,
    and not believing other people will "by free will" so that's why you
    believe in abusing govt to force people to comply with YOUR beliefs.

    Which is causing the problem here?
    And how do we resolve that Penelope?
    With another BULLRING thread?

    How about a million dollar bet, or 10 million that
    there is a DIFFERENCE between the
    * fake faith healing that you and I both agree is FALSE
    * truly effective natural spiritual healing (such as the therapy
    used in recovery from grief, addiction and/or abuse) that
    works by free will and is not a risk, but beneficial to people's health

    Penelope I can name three friends who have benefited from
    various degrees of this therapy that has saved their lives and relations.
    1. One used the AA method plus Buddhist meditation to forgive and
    stay sober and then shared this with other inmates who found it
    so successful they told all their friends, and their group grew 10 times
    as large from 250 people to 2500 because the spiritual healing works.
    2. One friend prayed twice with my friend Olivia to break through the
    causes of addiction, once when he was overcoming Diabetes II and
    baffled the doctors who took extra blood samples to study why he beat
    this when other people couldn't, and the second time after he realized
    that his issues stemmed from grudges he carried back from his parents
    and needed to get rid of that first. So he called and prayed with Olivia to
    break the "generational curses" or whatever you call this deeper level
    (Buddhists call it identifying and renouncing past like karma so you follow
    the dharma instead). My friend not only got into better health, but got into
    better relations where he no longer repeats the patterns of the past. He
    also lightened up and quit focusing on his resentment and rejection of
    "Conservative Christians" like Bush that he hated so much. The forgiveness
    heals all levels, so anything that is related to past unforgiveness has to
    change as well in the process, and it affects body mind and spirit as well
    as relations we have with other people which forgiveness allows to heal
    instead of holding on to ill will.

    3. another friend of mine who sometimes agrees that the spiritual healing
    helped him and other times disagrees and says no it didn't and he did everything himself
    is probably the most sympathetic and in agreement with you.
    However, BEFORE the spiritual healing, this friend was NOT able to control or contain the "demonic rage" in his head
    he himself described as demons, that compelled him to drink, smoke do all kind of drugs
    to suppress it, and made him unable to comply with doctors trying to help him.

    AFTER I finally got him to go with me to Olivia to pray to remove this "demonic" obsession/oppression
    that was tied to extreme abuse by his father and grandmother, then he went through the VERY painful
    process of extraction, of cutting away all those layers, everything that was built up in his mind and
    memory and relations, inside and out, that was tied to the cycle of abuse repeating itself.
    And that means practically everything. All of that was getting gutted out of him.
    He said it felt like "rape" which is exactly what the patient said, too, in Dr. Peck's book
    when he tested this procedure on schizophrenic patients to successfully remove their demon voices and personalities.

    I remember a conversation I had with my friend that if he didn't like this procedure
    he would have to tell those "demons" himself they can't stick around, because if
    he lets them in and they get out of hand again, the ONLY process or authority
    they obey is this "Christian business" of invoking Christ Jesus to cast them out.
    He hated that so much, he decided the demons "weren't real after all" and he
    quit telling himself they were. So he says the anxiety and all that mess is still
    there, and he has to work with meds and exercise to reduce the meds so he
    can gain control back of his body and his mind. One time he said to me the
    prayer DID help him get to the point where he could CHOOSE to not let these
    "demons in his mind or imagination" take over control; other times he says no,
    he did that HIMSELF. But both times I reminded him he wasn't able to do that
    before the healing prayer.

    After the prayer, he was able to work with the right doctors to get the right diagnoses
    and to comply with their instructions, even EXCEED their expectations. Before he was
    depressed and miserable that he had no control over any of these that were contradicting
    what he was able to do.

    Today, my friend reported that he AMAZED his doctor how much progress he's made in
    recovery and instead of being on the deathwish list, he is able to focus and work harder
    at all the steps necessary to recover from past damage from drugs/excess medication for anxiety/depression etc.

    So Penelope if you and my friend "don't believe" in spiritual healing,
    even if you don't believe, my friend demonstrates it STILL WORKS.
    As long as the person ACCEPTS the treatment, then just like when
    antibiotics work, it still works if you apply it to the viral contagion causing the illness.

    You don't have to believe in GRAVITY for gravity to work for you.
    But that doesn't mean you have the right to MISREPRESENT and misinform others
    by preaching to everyone that gravity is fake and not to believe the scientists or teachers teaching it.

    I guess you prove the statement that nobody believe in spiritual healing
    until they have seen proof of it. I only know ONE person who understood it
    before researching it and finding out the full extent of how this process works afterwards.

    Most people need to see proof or they just can't grasp it.
    This applies to the people practicing the scientific natural type of spiritual healing:
    * Dr. Phillip Goldfedder didn't believe until he saw proof
    www.healingisyours.com
    * Dr. Francis MacNutt thought it sounded like dark ages mysticism and not anything that
    normal people like him could do until he learned and has written books and teaches
    the CORRECT healing process that has been documented by a Scientific Medical
    study funded by the Templeton Foundation.
    (see www.christianhealingmin.org or his book HEALING that describes the
    DIFFERENCE between 'dangerous fake faith healing' vs. the real natural process
    * My friend Olivia learned of this process when she was healed of cancer (in her
    case it was put into remission where she could have children after she was told
    by doctors she would never have kids or that she was dying and to prepare to die)
    and since then she has helped thousands of other people with healing of their conditions
    even by praying over the phone to receive the healing power of forgiveness that changes things
    * Dr. Scott Peck didn't believe this was REAL either, so after he tested it out on two
    Schizophrenic patients he wrote his book "Glimpses of the Devil" about his observations
    that changed his mind about the RESULTS being real and working, although he acknowledged
    as a scientist he can never prove the demons or HOW the process works because it is invisible.

    by the scientific method, the steps and RESPONSE in each stage CAN BE SHOWN to follow a pattern
    and the recovery/healing level of the patient CAN BE ascertained, consistent with current therapy practices
    that rely on observations of the patient's ability to regain control and use of their minds and normal reasoning
    and emotional/behaviorial stability (vs. the out of control "demonic" personalities previous exhibited in sick patients
    as he treated using these "spiritual healing" methods).

    So Penelope if it isn't enough to put another BULLRING thread on here,
    let's take this a step further. I will agree to contact media hosts on both
    left and right, such as progressive leftwing Pacifica radio as well as rightwing
    media contacts, and ask them to co host a 1-10 million dollar bet that
    spiritual healing (as documented by a published medical study on RA funded
    by the Templeton Foundation) that is voluntary, free, natural and harmless is
    EFFECTIVE in healing body mind spirit and/or relations otherwise harmed
    by longterm effects of stress related to unforgiveness; and that this is DIFFERENT
    from the "faith healing" that you and I both agree is false, fake if not dangerous and/or deadly.

    The witnesses I will ask these groups to support in establishing their findings
    over YEARS of experience with successful healing by these methods:
    * Drs. Francis and Judith MacNutt
    * Dr. Phillip Goldfedder, licensed neurosurgeon who turned to spiritual healing as his main focus after finding it was more effective
    at identifying and curing the CAUSES of symptoms instead of just manipulating them as a side effect
    * Olivia Reiner in Houston

    Are you willing to make a bet there is a DIFFERENCE
    between what MacNutt's NONPROFIT outreach has been
    teaching and practicing (since he first published HEALING in 1977)
    and what HE AGREES WITH YOU is the 'dangerous deadly' type of
    "faith healing" that is false and fake.

    He teaches in his book, his practice, and all his educational outreach
    and training the DIFFERENCE between the true and the false practice,
    and what makes them dangerous. It states this in his book why faith
    healing FAILS!!!

    What is causing this problem Penelope, when the people who
    practice the RIGHT kind of spiritual healing TEACH That the "false
    faith healing" is dangerous, yet you continue to assume these things are the same?

    Why are you insisting on that?

    And do you want to make a million dollar bet
    and donate it to charity that you are wrong to confuse these two things with each other?
    To assume they are all the same?

    If you are wrong, and you also can't get the difference between State and Federal
    govt making laws about insurance, then I will ask you and ALL other supporters/voters/leaders
    who think like you to accept responsibility for CHANGING the problems caused
    by this willful or negligent ignorance of the difference.

    So the 1 million dollar bet could grow to 10 million or 10 billion
    because it affects so much change.

    The nonprofit charity I would ask to be the recipient of the bet
    is the progressive Pacifica Radio foundation if hosts/volunteers
    there agree to cosponsor a bet and ch allenge to invest money into research
    to settle this dispute over what is "fake faith healing" vs. what is
    true spiritual healing, and the difference between federal govt authority
    and the rights of people and the states.

    You don't see the difference, but that doesn't give you or anyone
    the right to impose federal govt on others who DO KNOW there is a difference.

    Penelope your ignorance, whether willful or negligent/innocent,
    does not give you the right to abuse govt to violate the rights of others
    who have different information and more knowledge/experience than you do.
     
  6. Penelope
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    Penelope Platinum Member

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    No doubt a healthy attitude in life can ease stress , but no I will never believe in demonic possession. Stress can be relieved by other than believing in God or getting baptized , by exercise, by meditation, by a healthly diet to loose weight, but to depend on God to obtain sobriety is going to be a let down, that is why AA fails as a long term effectiveness. I would say its from hearing to all the horror stories of other like themselves that keep people off the drink or drugs.

    I do not believe this:
    My friend Olivia learned of this process when she was healed of cancer (in her
    case it was put into remission where she could have children after she was told
    by doctors she would never have kids or that she was dying and to prepare to die).

    Why was she told to prepare to die, and no she could never have kids in the same sentence. What kind of CA did she have, her advancement of it, and if she has done anything physically to treat her CA.

    Please do not tell these stories without back up of the medical history, diagnosis by more than one doctor with medical testing, and what treatment she had done.

    I remember how, Francis McNutt, is who you believe in.

    With the government out of our healthcare, except to tell us what we now do not have, it will be left up to the insurance companies, and hospital boards.

    Like I have said the power of belief is very powerful, but the fact remains it reduces stress.
     
  7. Penelope
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    Penelope Platinum Member

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    * Schedule is subject to change.
    * Topics that may be covered (but not limited to): Keys to Healing, Healing Our Image of God, Forgiveness, Healing in Relationships, Baptism in the Holy Spirit (including a time of praying for the release of the baptism of the Holy Spirit), Generational Healing (including a Generational Healing service), The Process of Grief and Restoration, Building Joy Capacity, and a Mother and Father Blessing service.

    3 days not to include meals , lodging or transportation.
     
  8. froggy
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    froggy Gold Member

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    There is no such thing as stress that is only a mind game brought on by Word of Mouth
    Doctors are not God they can be wrong that's why everyone should get 2nd 3rd or 4th opinions
     
  9. Penelope
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    Penelope Platinum Member

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    There are a lot of medical conditions or exacerbated brought on by prolonged stress or if you prefer anxiety
     
  10. emilynghiem
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    emilynghiem Constitutionalist / Universalist Supporting Member

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    Dear Penelope
    As Peck also noted in his observations in his book,
    no, you don't have to believe that "demonic" conditions are real.
    And we can still prove that the therapy yields better results
    than leaving such patients untreated. Whether or not their "demonic"
    reports are real to them or delusional, or chemical misfirings in their brain,
    either way Penelope, the therapy
    can STILL be demonstrated to work naturally, effectively and voluntarily
    to free such people regardless of what the condition is or what is causing the
    disorderly or dangerous behavior (which left untreated too often becomes deadly).
     

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