Peak Geothermal

[mdn2000]

Thats right, another "peak" thread by the self-proclaimed expert, the Electrical Power Research Institute Analyst.

All the good spots for Geothermal have been exploited, we have reached the peak of Geothermal, I will post some links that provide the fact. To begin the thread this is a nice story.

Geothermal plants find natural steam source running out

Geothermal plants find natural steam source running out

May 2001

U.S. Water News Online

MIDDLETOWN, Calif. -- Geothermal plants in The Geysers area north of the Napa Valley have tapped steam fields to produce electricity since the 1960s. The 350-degree steam rushes more than 1,500 feet up from the earth, spinning turbines that create a constant flow of electricity.

But mismanagement of the steam fields beneath the hilly northwestern California region that straddles the Sonoma and Lake county lines has led to a large decline of pressure -- and a drop of more than 50 percent in the amount of power the plants produce.

The geothermal decline comes as California already faces short supplies of hydroelectricity from the drought-ridden Pacific Northwest and growing c ompetition for megawatts from other power-starved states.

State power grid managers estimate they're losing about 900 megawatts of geothermal electricity due to the gradual depletion of the steam fields. That's enough power for roughly 675,000 homes.

``They just overproduced. It is a renewable source of power, but it's renewable over geologic time,'' said Katherine Potter, a spokeswoman for Calpine Energy, which owns 19 of the 21 geothermal power plants in The Geysers region, which incidentally has no geysers

 

[Mr. H.]

The article also mentions returning treated wastewater underground in order to "replenish" the steam source. Plus there are many untapped reservoirs spread across several states.

 

[loosecannon]

All the good spots for oil and coal extraction have been exploited

 

[Mr. H.]

"Good spots"?

Most drilling is done in "bad spots". The success rate for wildcats is very low.

 

[Mr. H.]

U.S. Policies Put Most U.S. Oil Off-Limits to Drilling

The report, which was produced at the request of Congress by the U.S. Department of Interior's Bureau of Land Management (BLM), said there are 279 million acres under federal management where oil and gas could potentially could be extracted.

 

[mdn2000]

A cursory Google search of the Geysers reveals that Calpine, the corporation that profits from the subsidized green energy policy, as well as the researchers and scientist that profit from Obama's green energy policy have bought the "Keywords" thus when I search the geothermal as green propaganda is the first results found. Billions in subsidies in which they use to market a false idea as geothermal being renewable. If Geothermal is profitable and kind to the environment why must they control the keywords thus the publics perception when a google search is performed. Anyhow, this is how the public is manipulated and anyone checking my facts must be aware of the difficulty in searching for the facts.

I hate analogies but I am starting to come around, its the only way some people are able to grasp a concept. Thus to save energy I suggest no more mass produced automobiles, each car produced from now on must be a unique custom built automobile, each with a slightly different technology, that way in 50 years we will may find a better solution. We should disregard everything we know about production and event a new type of custom production, this will take tens of billions of dollars in research money, higher taxes, subsidies, and massive amounts of energy to build the new infrastructure.

Now that was funny.

To the Geysers. it is a rare geological formation, The Geysers is unique, being such it demonstrates that all geothermal formations are unique thus require specific research and study to develop as a source of power. Each plant must be custom built to the geological formation we tap into. How many sources can I provide that present this, I have some pdf documents on my computer from EPRI, engineering and research summaries that state each geothermal source is unique and presents an unique engineering challenge.

Is there not a Geologist here on USMB that can confirm what I present as fact, just a thought. Geothermal is thus a Geologist dream come true, Scientists, Engineers, get to use their best skills, each site requires new research, new money, which is not included in the cost of developing the site. Billions in subsidies for research. Research money seems to be the actual "Renewable Resource" that Green energy refers to.

Geothermal plants find natural steam source running out

The Geysers is a rare geologic formation called a dry steam field,

 

[mdn2000]

rare is not renewable or green energy

 

[Old Rocks]

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2010/geothermal-0126.html

Everywhere on Earth, a few miles below the surface, the bedrock is hot, and the deeper you go the hotter it gets. In some places, water heated by this hot rock comes naturally to the surface or close to it, where it can be easily tapped to drive a turbine and generate electricity.

But where naturally heated water is not available at or near the surface, this process can be recreated by drilling one very deep well to inject water into the ground, and another well nearby to pump that water back to the surface after it has been heated by passing through cracks in the hot rock. Such systems are known as Engineered Geothermal Systems, or EGS.

A 2006 report by an 18-member team led by MIT Professor Jefferson Tester (now emeritus, and working at Cornell University) found that more than 2,000 times the total annual energy use of the United States could be supplied, using existing technology, from EGS systems, and perhaps 10 times as much with improved technology.

 

[Old Rocks]

The western states alone could power the whole of the nation with geothermal available here.

http://pesn.com/2007/01/22/9500449_MIT_Geothermal_Report/Geothermal_Map_USA_2004_hj70.jpg

 

[Old Rocks]

Here in Oregon we have a huge geothermal potential, along with solar and wind.

http://www.oregon.gov/ENERGY/RENEW/docs/tp124.pdf?ga=t

 

[mdn2000]

Here in Oregon we have a huge geothermal potential, along with solar and wind.

http://www.oregon.gov/ENERGY/RENEW/docs/tp124.pdf?ga=t

Actually you have tiny potential, you linked to the Geysers so I will finish showing how the Geysers has reached its peak and how unique the characteristics are, thus they are not going to be copied anywhere else, sure there will be some similarities, I do not deny that.

Each Geothermal site presents unique challenge

Geothermal Features - Geysers

Types of Geysers

Top
Each geyser has its unique characteristics much as individual humans do. However, some similarities among them allow us to classify them. The two broad classifications are fountain and cone types. There are other classifications based on their periodicity, what they spout, etc

The Chemistry of the brine, water, steam is unique at each specific site.

Thermal Biology Institute at Montana State University :: Faculty & Staff

PHYLOGENY AND BIOGEOCHEMISTRY OF CHEMOTROPHIC MICROORGANISMS

Of the numerous geothermal features distributed throughout Yellowstone National Park (YNP), many are very acidic (pH<3) due to the oxidation of S in the subsurface hydrothermal system and or contact of geothermal water with buried solfataras (Fournier et al. 1992; Xu et al. 1998). Many of these acidic geothermal sites exhibit similar chemical characteristics to nonthermal acid-mine drainage generated from pyrite oxidation (Nordstrom 1982; LeBlanc et al. 1997; Morin et al. 2004); thus their thorough study and characterization has application beyond the study of microbial ecology in extreme habitats. Acidic geothermal springs in YNP represent unique environments, harboring microorganisms with physiologies specific to such habitats and that have yet to be discovered and characterized

Each site must be custom built, this ads a tremendous cost, a cost not factored into the price per kilowatt, that way Geothermal can compete with Fossil fuel. Further Cap and Trade is the scheme to make fossil fuel burning plants as expensive as geothermal so that geothermal can compete.

 

[mdn2000]

Here is a bit right from the people promoting Geothermal, I also have stuff on the cost, like how the capital costs is not counted. There is three different types of "costs", maybe more, those who promote Geothermal are not specific thus they deceive the public.

Advantages and Disadvantages of Renewable Energy Articles | Renewable Energy

Disadvantages are that it is very site specific and, along with the heat from the Earth, it can also bring up toxic chemicals when obtaining the steam. Drilling geothermal reservoirs and finding them can be an expensive task.

 

[mdn2000]

U.S. Geothermal inc. is the company that is developing this geothermal plant in Oregon. The article which is a press release states the plant will be 22mw, that is design capacity, engineering theory, nothing more, the plant could produce significantly less.

Neal Hot Springs Promises Oregon Commercial Geothermal Power | Renewable Energy World North America Magazine Article

The company plans to build a 22 MW facility on the site&#8211;Oregon's first commercial geothermal power plant under a long-term Power Purchase Agreement (PPA).

Let us compare this to APS's Palo Verde Nuclear Station in Arizona

22 megawatts potential provided by U.S Geothermal inc in Oregon
4000 megawatts supplied by APS Palo Verde in Arizona.

APS :: Power Plants - Generation

Palo Verde
The Palo Verde Nuclear Generating Station®, located about 55 miles west of Phoenix, has been the largest power producer of any kind in the United States since 1992. Its three units are capable of generating nearly 4,000 megawatts of electricity

 

[mdn2000]

Not to make this a Nuke thread but we need to compare the waste of energy geothermal to something.

Oregon's geothermal is only possible because Obama is taking billions of dollars from our pockets which US Geothermal will use to make themselves rich.

APS Palo Verde on the other hand puts money into our pockets.

APS :: Power Plants - Generation

Oregon is a Green Peace welfare state

Palo Verde, the largest single commercial taxpayer in Arizona, is operated by APS and is owned by a consortium of seven utilities in the Southwest. APS owns 29.1 percent of the plant.

 

[Old Rocks]

According to the MIT scientists, geo-thermal will cost far less per kw than nuclear. Both are clean and can be built with present technology. Geo-thermal has the advantage in many areas that the grid that would pick it up, also can serve solar and wind. Siting nukes requires vast amounts of water.

 

[mdn2000]

According to the MIT scientists, geo-thermal will cost far less per kw than nuclear. Both are clean and can be built with present technology. Geo-thermal has the advantage in many areas that the grid that would pick it up, also can serve solar and wind. Siting nukes requires vast amounts of water.

Solar and Wind take more water, all the water used to manufacture Solar and Wind is what you are ignorant of. Further Solar needs a larger supply of water than Nuclear, if you take into consideration the small amount of power Solar provides.

Geo-thermal has the disadvantage that every site is unique thus environmental concerns are always different and require expensive engineering studies as well as unique engineering solutions.

Geo-thermal requires vast amounts of water, you do not use direct heat, there is always a heat exchanger, I know, I am one of the very few people on earth that is an Electrical Power Research Institute Analysis. It is my job to go inside and acquire data for Analyst or actually Analyze the collected data.

It just shows that Old Crock knows nothing of this subject.

As far as using existing technology, that is wrong, each site is unique and requires different engineering solutions from design to materials. Funny thing about metal, you cannot use just any kind of metal. Take Nuclear power plants, they are or have replaced their steam generators Iconell 600 with Iconell 690 do to many reasons one being Primary Water Stress Corrosion Cracking. In a Geothermal plant the chemistry of the primary water is unique to the site, further that chemistry is constantly changing although within a certain parameter. It takes a lot of trial and error to find metals specific to the chemistry of the primary water.

I will post more later, time to play with slot cars. Scaletrx from Spain.

 

[editec]

Damned few homes are designed to take advantage of the earth's geo-thermal potential.

If my ship comes in I know exactly where I'll build that home to take advantage of it, and it won't be anywhere near one of the eath's hotspots.

It will be a home built into the south side side of the summit of Mt Ephraim in Searsport Maine.

 

[Old Rocks]

In the Malhuer Basin, there are some homes that take advantage of hot water geothermal wells. Here is a small list of geothermal in use in Oregon at present;

http://www.oregon.gov/ENERGY/RENEW/docs/tp124.pdf

 

[mdn2000]

Old Crock is now my greatest link, thanks for seeing the light Old Crock. Old Crock was kind enough to contribute this link to failed Geothermal. Geothermal is not renewable.

This is what Old Crock links to. Follows is the article showing this source of Geothermal is drying up so fast investors are being warned, thats with subsidies and tax breaks.

http://www.geothermal.org/articles/California.pdf

California contains, by far, the greatest geothermal generating capacity in
the United States, and with the possible exception of Alaska, the greatest potential for development of additional resources. California has
nearly two-thirds of U.S. geothermal electrical installed capacity of nearly
3,000 megawatts (MW). Depending on assumptions regarding geothermal reservoir characteristics and future market conditions, additional resources of
between 2,000 and 10,000 MW might be developed (Muffler, 1979). However, current industry estimates are nearer the lower number

Geothermal is so poor a source of power you got to be careful of what you post.

Fitch Downgrades Coso Geothermal Power Holdings, LLC to 'B+'; Placed on Negative Watch - Yahoo! Finance

Fitch Downgrades Coso Geothermal Power Holdings, LLC to 'B+'; Placed on Negative Watch

Topics:Upgrades & Downgrades
Press Release Source: Fitch Ratings On Tuesday November 16, 2010, 4:25 pm EST
CHICAGO--(BUSINESS WIRE)-- Fitch Ratings has downgraded the rating of Coso Geothermal Power Holdings, LLC's (CGP) pass-through trust certificates due 2026 to 'B+' from 'BBB-', and placed it on Rating Watch Negative

 

[mdn2000]

Looks like bankruptcy time, all that Obama cash cannot save "renewable geothermal". The unfortunate part is this project has been failing for a decade, will it take that long before we discover the same for wind and solar, lots of money being pumped in today hides a lot of the problem.

Moody rating for Terra-Gen&#8217;s Coso Geothermal debt downgraded | Think GeoEnergy - Geothermal Energy News

Moody&#8217;s downgrades Coso Geothermal outstanding private debt to B1 based on lower than expected power generation.
As reported by Moodys and Project Finance Magazine, the rating agency Moody&#8217;s has downgraded the $584 million in outstanding private debt to B1, based on lower than expected power generation