Patton's 48 Hour Seige Of Bastogne Vs. The War In Syria

[Toronado3800]

Yeah, I think we learned our lesson and just might not invade Syria or encourage too much more of this Arab Fall or whatever hippie lovefest name we wanna call it.

We overthrew Saddam Hussein and until someone strong takes over that nightmare of a country we need to babysit it. No need to have to babysit Syria for the rest of our life expectancies.

 

[regent]

Yeah, I think we learned our lesson and just might not invade Syria or encourage too much more of this Arab Fall or whatever hippie lovefest name we wanna call it.

We overthrew Saddam Hussein and until someone strong takes over that nightmare of a country we need to babysit it. No need to have to babysit Syria for the rest of our life expectancies.

We should have tried Saddam, found him guilty of stuff and sentenced him to run Iraq under American supervision. Our nation building seems to have been a failure, but not too worry, as Cheney said, Iraq oil will pay for the whole thing.

 

[OldUSAFSniper]

Man, this one is like having a turd in one hand and a rattlesnake in the other. It just doesn't get much more dangerous than the game we've gotten ourselves into with this one. If Barry would stop playing golf for a minute and actually go to his National Security briefings, he might have learned that a residual force in Iraq would have been a good thing. But no, if it didn't involve rubbing shoulders with the Hollywood elite, Barry and his criminal minions are always absent.

What do we do? You HAVE to do something with ISIS, you have to. Is an air war going to be enough? Probably not. But I'm also not up for sending American troops back into these shit holes. Seems like somebody thinks that when we kick their ass then we have to spend trillions of dollars rebuilding something they didn't have beforehand. That's ignorant. They're going to have to die. We're probably the only ones with enough cajones to do it. That sucks...

 

[eagle1462010]

Man, this one is like having a turd in one hand and a rattlesnake in the other. It just doesn't get much more dangerous than the game we've gotten ourselves into with this one. If Barry would stop playing golf for a minute and actually go to his National Security briefings, he might have learned that a residual force in Iraq would have been a good thing. But no, if it didn't involve rubbing shoulders with the Hollywood elite, Barry and his criminal minions are always absent.

What do we do? You HAVE to do something with ISIS, you have to. Is an air war going to be enough? Probably not. But I'm also not up for sending American troops back into these shit holes. Seems like somebody thinks that when we kick their ass then we have to spend trillions of dollars rebuilding something they didn't have beforehand. That's ignorant. They're going to have to die. We're probably the only ones with enough cajones to do it. That sucks...

Yes it does. The whole dang region sucks.

 

[bianco]

we're stuck with tweed le dumb and tweedle dee.

Yeah, and we have for decades in a lot of ways. We ended WWII as a superpower and we have been frittering it away ever since by trying to fight wars with politicians instead of Generals. Now the world just laughs at us.

We should have re-instated our selves after 9/11 with a couple of limited nuclear attacks on Afghanistan.

The world has changed a lot since WW2.
Nuke Afghanistan? US would've been ostracised in much of the world community, most likely.
US can't be enduring trade sanctions/boycotting for very long.

Nuke whom in Afghanistan?
Whom exactly?
Nuked women and kids, not a good look for Washington in the newspaper headlines.
Invading Afghanistan...big mistake.
Invading Iraq...big mistake.
Invading Vietnam...big mistake.

 

[bianco]

from another internet forum;

My father was a WW2 infantryman in the Pacific Theater, so he didn't serve under Patton. He did however pretty much spit whenever Patton's name was mentioned. Felt that Patton caused unnecessary casualties and made wounded unfit men go into combat.

It is no wonder that his best-known nickname was "Old Blood and Guts". Even though many of the third army soldiers did mourn his passing and many felt proud of serving under him, many of his soldiers used to say at that nickname: "Yeah. His guts. Our blood"
______________________________________________________________
****************************************************************************************

It's worth noting that of the five divisions that took highest number of casualties in Europe in World War II - the 4th, the 29th, the 90th, the 30th, and the 80th (in order) - all except the 30th were under Patton's command.

 

[whitehall]

The Battle of the Bulge (Bastogne) was the worst failure of US intelligence (and leadership) during WW2. Everyone including Ike was in a party mood wondering if the rumors were true that they would be home by Christmas. Ike should have been relieved of duty. Syria is just a glitch in history and clearly the Hussein administration doesn't want to fight in Syria or Afghanistan where Americans are still taking casualties.

 

[deltex1]

we're stuck with tweed le dumb and tweedle dee.

Yeah, and we have for decades in a lot of ways. We ended WWII as a superpower and we have been frittering it away ever since by trying to fight wars with politicians instead of Generals. Now the world just laughs at us.

We should have re-instated our selves after 9/11 with a couple of limited nuclear attacks on Afghanistan.

The world has changed a lot since WW2.
Nuke Afghanistan? US would've been ostracised in much of the world community, most likely.
US can't be enduring trade sanctions/boycotting for very long.

Nuke whom in Afghanistan?
Whom exactly?
Nuked women and kids, not a good look for Washington in the newspaper headlines.
Invading Afghanistan...big mistake.
Invading Iraq...big mistake.
Invading Vietnam...big mistake.

Well...that was then, this is now. We didn't blast Afghanistan ...and we really haven't blasted anyone since...and our blasts have been getting weaker and weaker. We need to step back, re analyze, warn and then pick someone, someplace to lay flat as a message that we have had enough. The radicals will not change until we do.

 

[teddyearp]

we're stuck with tweed le dumb and tweedle dee.

Yeah, and we have for decades in a lot of ways. We ended WWII as a superpower and we have been frittering it away ever since by trying to fight wars with politicians instead of Generals. Now the world just laughs at us.

We should have re-instated our selves after 9/11 with a couple of limited nuclear attacks on Afghanistan.

The world has changed a lot since WW2.
Nuke Afghanistan? US would've been ostracised in much of the world community, most likely.
US can't be enduring trade sanctions/boycotting for very long.

Nuke whom in Afghanistan?
Whom exactly?
Nuked women and kids, not a good look for Washington in the newspaper headlines.
Invading Afghanistan...big mistake.
Invading Iraq...big mistake.
Invading Vietnam...big mistake.

Yes the world has changed a lot since WWII, as have we. Which I already mentioned.

Nuke whom and/or where in Afghanistan? Perhaps Kabul and parts east towards the mountain caves. Women and children? Yes that would have been a bad thing, but so was the 3k lost on 9/11. And yes I know, the world would have bitched and everyone would have gone to the UN against us.

But at the end of the day, the world would again take us seriously, stop laughing at us and the best part?

We would not have needed to invade Afghanistan, nor Iraq.

Your mention of Vietnam, big mistake, not relevant.

 

[eagle1462010]

The Patton Society Research Library The Third Army in WWII Metal Letters

1944 - 1945




Facts and Figures




Reduced to cold, statistical figures, the feats of the Third Army were astonishing. The Army liberated or captured 81,522 square miles of territory. An estimated 12,000 cities, towns, and communities were liberated or captured, including 27 cities of more than 50,000 in population.

Third Army captured 765,483 prisoners of war. 515,205 of the enemy surrendered during the last week of the war to make a total of 1,280,688 POW's processed.

The enemy lost an estimated 1,280,688 captured, 144,500 killed, and 386,200 wounded, adding up to 1,811,388. By comparison, the Third Army suffered 16,596 killed, 96,241 wounded, and 26,809 missing in action for a total of 139,646 casualties. Third Army's losses were only 12.97 percent of the German losses. That is only about 13 American soldiers for every 100 German soldiers.

Third Army aircraft and artillery dropped or dispersed by shell 31,552,700 psychological warfare leaflets to enemy troops.

XIX Tactical Air Command completed 1,767 tactical reconnaissance missions and 77 photo reconnaissance missions which resulted in 3,205,670 aerial photographic prints being distributed.

XIX Tactical Air Command flew 7,326 missions and 74,447 sorties during the 281 days of fighting.

Third Army's air support dropped 17,486 tons of bombs, 3,205 napalm tanks, and launched 4,599 rockets.

The Air Command destroyed 1,640 enemy planes and only lost 582 of it's own from all causes.

Targets destroyed or damaged by the XIX Tactical Air Command included:

Tanks and armored cars 3,833

Motor vehicles 38,541

Locomotives 4,337

Railroad lines cut 2,585

Marshaling yards 974

Towns and villages 816

Factories 3,664

Supply dumps 220

Military installations 1,730

Gun installations 2,809

Highway and railroad bridges 285

Miscellaneous naval vessels 654

Miscellaneous targets 3,010

Third Army artillery fired 5,870,843 rounds of ammunition during the fighting.

Tank destroyers with the Third Army knocked out 648 enemy tanks and 211 self propelled guns. At the Maginot Line and the Siegfried Line, they eliminated 801 pillboxes. They fired a total of 101,178 rounds of ammunition on direct fire missions and 231,998 rounds on indirect fire missions.

Within the Army area, 2,186,792 tons of supplies were transported a total of 141,081,336 miles by trucks in the transportation pool. A total of 2,092 miles of railway track was reconstructed and placed into operation.

The Army repaired 99,114 general purpose vehicles, 21,761 combat vehicles, 11,613 artillery pieces, 125,083 small arms, and 32,740 instruments.

Third Army Engineers constructed 2,498 bridges with a total footage of 255,520 feet, almost 48 and one half miles of bridging. They built or maintained an average of 2,240 miles of road.

Third Army's nine chemical mortar companies expended 349,097 rounds of 4.2 inch mortars, including 189,095 rounds of high explosive and 160,002 rounds of white phosphorous. Chemical warfare supplies included 32,454 gallons of flame thrower fuel and 335,944 grenades.

Third Army Signal Corps personnel laid 3,747 miles of telephone wire. The Third Army message center handled a total of 7,220,261 code groups and switchboard operators handled an average of 13,968 telephone calls daily.

Military personnel in the Third Army were paid a total of $240,539,569 from the 1st of August, 1944 until the 30th of April, 1945.

The forward echelon of the Third Army (code named Lucky Forward by General Patton) traveled 1,225 miles while making 19 complete moves during combat.

The decorations awarded to soldiers of the Third Army were:

Medal of Honor 19

Distinguished Service Medal 44

Distinguished Service Cross 291

Legion of Merit 159

Silver Star 4,990

Soldier's Medal 247

Bronze Star 29,090

Normal promotions numbered 6,464; battlefield promotions totaled 1,817; and combat appointments totaled 848.

The correspondents of the Third Army and soldier correspondents wrote 30,326 stories totaling 7,010,963 words. They submitted 7,129 photographs about the Third Army's combat fighting.

A total of 11,230,000 soldiers attended motion picture shows at the Third Army. The USO shows played to 650,000 soldiers, and the soldier talent shows played to a total of 625,000 soldiers.

General Patton was right when he said, "It sure takes a lot to kill a German."

In this way, the Third Army played it's proud part in helping to crush the Nazi war machine. When men talk of the Second World War the name of the Third U.S. Army and of it's commander will awaken a special thrill of courage and adventure.

Perhaps more than any other group of soldiers in the European Theater, the soldiers of the Third Army deserved the praise of the Supreme Allied Commander Eisenhower when he said, "Working and fighting together in a single indestructible partnership you have achieved perfection in unification of air, ground, and naval power that will stand as a model in our time."

 

[eagle1462010]

Whether you like Patton or not, his forces won in North Africa where other Generals lost with superior numbers against Germany. He turned it around and helped take North Africa.

Whether you don't like the fact that he broke orders in Sicily, he forced an earlier victory in Sicily while the other Divisions were catching hell making slow advances.

In Europe, the 3rd Army did more damage to the Germans than the rest as he pushed the Germans relentlessly not giving them time to regroup and kept them on the run. His intel on the Battle of the Bulge was he expected an attack by Germany, an had already started moving his forces into place before the attack even began.

Patton, whether you like it or not sped up the victory in Europe by being relentless and bold. His battle successes prove it.

 

[JakeStarkey]

td has got it, TK never had it

 

[JakeStarkey]

Patton, yes, was our greatest tactical general. Not even Stonewall Jackson was as good.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Unfair comparing past wars and performance or leadership to today's wars. Wars of the past were fought to be won. Wars of today are fought to make money (thus they last indefinitely while not actually achieving much.)

 

[regent]

from another internet forum;

My father was a WW2 infantryman in the Pacific Theater, so he didn't serve under Patton. He did however pretty much spit whenever Patton's name was mentioned. Felt that Patton caused unnecessary casualties and made wounded unfit men go into combat.

It is no wonder that his best-known nickname was "Old Blood and Guts". Even though many of the third army soldiers did mourn his passing and many felt proud of serving under him, many of his soldiers used to say at that nickname: "Yeah. His guts. Our blood"
______________________________________________________________
****************************************************************************************

It's worth noting that of the five divisions that took highest number of casualties in Europe in World War II - the 4th, the 29th, the 90th, the 30th, and the 80th (in order) - all except the 30th were under Patton's command.

. Some commanders were considerate of the men in their command, including not taking needless casualties, other commanders wanted the personal fame and to be recognized as a tough SOB's and others wanted other things. Infantrymen made their judgments quickly, The generals with bad reputations such as MacArthur, stick with Mac and never get back, and dugout Doug were not appreciated.
When the GI's stuck old blood and guts on Patton they were telling us something of Patton. Compare that with Omar Bradley, a soldiers soldier. The media is somewhat involved in that it painted a picture of the commanders for the home folks that made them proud of their exploits. In any case I would not want to know the needless casualties that some of those commanders accepted to gain their chance for fame.

 

[whitehall]

Pop culture writes the history books in many ways. Kids haven't studied American history in fifty years and the closest thing they get to WW2 is a Hollywood movie. Hollywood selected Gregory Peck to play MacArthur in a serious role designed to put the best spin on Mac's legacy. Hollywood selected quirky George C. Scott to play Patton and put a negative and slightly comedic spin on possibly the greatest General in modern times. Patton slapped a malingerer Soldier and Hollywood gave it top billing. MacArthur lost an entire freaking Army three months into WW2 and his "heroic" escape from harms way is an example of the other spin.

 

[bianco]

. Some commanders were considerate of the men in their command, including not taking needless casualties, other commanders wanted the personal fame and to be recognized as a tough SOB's and others wanted other things. Infantrymen made their judgments quickly, The generals with bad reputations such as MacArthur, stick with Mac and never get back, and dugout Doug were not appreciated.
When the GI's stuck old blood and guts on Patton they were telling us something of Patton. Compare that with Omar Bradley, a soldiers soldier. The media is somewhat involved in that it painted a picture of the commanders for the home folks that made them proud of their exploits. In any case I would not want to know the needless casualties that some of those commanders accepted to gain their chance for fame.

In Papua New Guinea WW2;
Kokoka Track - Never Saying Die

The Blamey incident
Australian general Thomas Blamey fancied himself as a World War II answer to General John Monash. Like Monash, he wanted to push his hand into the enemy throat and keep it there so that it could never gain the ascendancy.
While such aggression proved useful for Monash to break the trench warfare of the Western Front, it was inappropriate for the jungle warfare of Papua New Guinea.
Had those under his command obeyed his orders, then it would have led to the futile infantry charges that Monash considered to be so wasteful. Adapting to the conditions, the Australian soldiers acted like Monash by ignoring inappropriate instructions. Instead of charging at the enemy in a blitzkrieg approach, they changed the warfare to a running battle of attrition. The Japanese strength was sapped by keeping them on the offensive, lengthening their supply lines, and contaminating any food they captured. It was a strategy that won the Australians the battle.

Although the Australians won, the victory came at the cost of Blamey's ego. To find some self-esteem, on the 9th of November 1942, Blamey addressed the 21st Infantry Brigade on the parade ground and informed them that they had been beaten by inferior forces and that no soldier should be afraid to die. He then said that:
"it's the rabbit who runs who gets shot, not the man holding the gun."
Just as some of Blamey's battle strategies were ill conceived, it was an ill conceived idea to address men who had spent two months in jungle warfare and label them cowards.
Not only did it fail to motivate soldiers or inspire respect for commanding officers, it amounted to a huge safety risk for Blamey. Many officers later said that Blamey was lucky to escape with his life. When Blamey later visited the wounded in hospital, many nibbled lettuce, while wrinkling their nose in mock of him.

 

[regent]

. Some commanders were considerate of the men in their command, including not taking needless casualties, other commanders wanted the personal fame and to be recognized as a tough SOB's and others wanted other things. Infantrymen made their judgments quickly, The generals with bad reputations such as MacArthur, stick with Mac and never get back, and dugout Doug were not appreciated.
When the GI's stuck old blood and guts on Patton they were telling us something of Patton. Compare that with Omar Bradley, a soldiers soldier. The media is somewhat involved in that it painted a picture of the commanders for the home folks that made them proud of their exploits. In any case I would not want to know the needless casualties that some of those commanders accepted to gain their chance for fame.

In Papua New Guinea WW2;
Kokoka Track - Never Saying Die

The Blamey incident
Australian general Thomas Blamey fancied himself as a World War II answer to General John Monash. Like Monash, he wanted to push his hand into the enemy throat and keep it there so that it could never gain the ascendancy.
While such aggression proved useful for Monash to break the trench warfare of the Western Front, it was inappropriate for the jungle warfare of Papua New Guinea.
Had those under his command obeyed his orders, then it would have led to the futile infantry charges that Monash considered to be so wasteful. Adapting to the conditions, the Australian soldiers acted like Monash by ignoring inappropriate instructions. Instead of charging at the enemy in a blitzkrieg approach, they changed the warfare to a running battle of attrition. The Japanese strength was sapped by keeping them on the offensive, lengthening their supply lines, and contaminating any food they captured. It was a strategy that won the Australians the battle.

Although the Australians won, the victory came at the cost of Blamey's ego. To find some self-esteem, on the 9th of November 1942, Blamey addressed the 21st Infantry Brigade on the parade ground and informed them that they had been beaten by inferior forces and that no soldier should be afraid to die. He then said that:
"it's the rabbit who runs who gets shot, not the man holding the gun."
Just as some of Blamey's battle strategies were ill conceived, it was an ill conceived idea to address men who had spent two months in jungle warfare and label them cowards.
Not only did it fail to motivate soldiers or inspire respect for commanding officers, it amounted to a huge safety risk for Blamey. Many officers later said that Blamey was lucky to escape with his life. When Blamey later visited the wounded in hospital, many nibbled lettuce, while wrinkling their nose in mock of him.

I don't know about Blamey but I do know a little of MacArthur who probably had no idea of conditions at Buna. My hero of Buna was Herman T. Boettcher, promoted and later. to die on Luzon. I did not fight at Buna but I was there after the battle and spent some time walking over the battle. The first picture of American dead released to the papers, was GI's on Maggot beach.
It was primarily the Australian 39th Battalion that engaged the Japanese on the Kakoda Track and after the battle they had a contest of some type and the winning company got two weeks leave Australia. The company that won the contest went home and never came back. Buna may have been the worst battle of WWII, maybe that's why so little is known about it.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I have always thought Herman T. Boettcher to be a model for one of the heroes in Myers' "Once An Eagle". Once An Eagle - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Literary significance and criticism[edit]
General H. Norman Schwarzkopf described Once an Eagle as "[a] classic novel of war and warriors. Sam Damon doesn't preach, he lives his values and they are universal, not only military."

In 1997 the United States Army War College Foundation published an edition with a foreword by GeneralJohn William Vessey, Jr. which read "It has been over thirty years since Anton Myrer, a former Marine enlisted man, began the exhaustive and painstaking research that produced this classic novel of soldiers and soldiering. Once an Eagle ranks with Red Badge of Courage and All Quiet on the Western Front as time tested epics of war and warriors. The spirit, the heart and, yes, the soul of the officer corps is captured, as are the intangible ambiance and nuances that make up the life of the American soldier and his family. It is for these reasons and more that the Army War College Foundation has undertaken to republish Anton Myrer’s masterpiece."[4]

General Charles C. Krulak, the commandant of the US Marine Corps, wrote "Once an Eagle has more to teach about leadership — whether it is in the boardroom or on the battlefield — than a score of modern-day management texts. It is a primer that lays out, through the lives of its two main characters, lessons on how and how not to lead."[4]

Maj. Gen. Robert H. Scales, the commandant of the US Army War College in 1997 wrote on the book's fly-leaf "Once an Eagle has been the literary moral compass for me and my family of soldiers for more than two generations. Its ethical message is as fresh and relevant today as it was when Anton Myrer wrote it during the war in Vietnam.[4]

The book has also been on the Army Chief of Staff's recommended reading list for professional development, and is currently on the Marine Corps Commandant's recommended reading list as well.

 

[AquaAthena]

What would Patton do with Mosul?

He would take it and take no prisoners.