Pat Tillman: Enough already!

[RetiredGySgt]

We have already been over the Lynch story. There is NOT ONE credible source that has the Government lying about her actions or her capture. In fact EVERY statement officially from the Government about her STATED for the record they did not know what she had done or the conditions of her capture and could NOT know until they finished an investigation. And when they finished said investigation they ANNOUNCED PUBLICLY that she had done NONE of the things the PRESS and certain Congressmen had claimed she did.

All the press has is a single story from one newspaper that an "unnamed" source in the "intelligence" field told them something. And to counter that you have Pentagon statements, Central Command Statements and Sec Def statements, that say they do not know she did any of the things claimed by some "unnamed" "nonspecific" source.

 

[Edward]

We have already been over the Lynch story.

It's good to know that "we" which I must conclude doesn't include me have been over this since I haven't. Do you know how to use the word "we" or do you think of yourself as "we." If you are referring to you and others than you should say as much instead of pretending that we have been over this when I have done no such thing as I am sure others here haven't as well. Also, what happened to Jessica Lynch isn't just a story. Contrary to what you may think she has a family, friends and people who care about her. It is wrong to imply that what happened to her is nothing more than a story. To even refer to her capture, rescue and the subsequent events as a story is offensive and truly outrageous. This woman served her country in the Army, was wounded and captured and returned home to her family and loved ones after under-going an ordeal and if it wasn't for her integrity the military's version of events would still be out there as fact.

There is NOT ONE credible source that has the Government lying about her actions or her capture.

I consider major news sources to be credible. Here is one such report from MSNBC, "In an April 3, 2003, story, The Military Times, a specialist newspaper, quoted Navy Capt. Frank Thorp as saying Lynch waged quite a battle prior to her capture. At the time, Thorp was one of the U.S. military’s senior spokesmen in the Persian Gulf. Now a rear admiral, he serves today as a deputy to Dorrance Smith, the Pentagon's public relations chief. (Smith was not head of public affairs at the time Lynch was captured.) "We do have very strong indications that Jessica Lynch was not captured very easily ... Reports are that she fired her [M-16 rifle] until she had no more ammunition,” Thorp said at the time, shortly after Lynch was retrieved from an Iraqi hospital by U.S. forces." Lynch contradicts this by stating that she did not fire a single shot. Thorp was the Chief of Media for U.S. Central Command in the Persian Gulf during the time he made these comments. He is now the Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Joint Communication and holds the rank of Rear Admiral. Prior to his assignment as the Chief of Media for U.S. Central Command he served as Special Assistant for Public Affairs to the Chief of Naval Operations. Yet we are supposed to believe that there is NOT ONE single credible source.

The Washington Post at the time reported, "Pfc. Jessica Lynch, rescued Tuesday from an Iraqi hospital, fought fiercely and shot several enemy soldiers after Iraqi forces ambushed the Army's 507th Ordnance Maintenance Company, firing her weapon until she ran out of ammunition, U.S. officials said yesterday. Lynch, a 19-year-old supply clerk, continued firing at the Iraqis even after she sustained multiple gunshot wounds and watched several other soldiers in her unit die around her in fighting March 23, one official said. The ambush took place after a 507th convoy, supporting the advancing 3rd Infantry Division, took a wrong turn near the southern city of Nasiriyah. "She was fighting to the death," the official said. "She did not want to be taken alive."

Now I doubt very much that the Washington Post would have ran with the same story as the Military Times and quote U.S. officials just as they did and there not have been some purpose behind an official spokesman for the U.S. Central Command providing this information to the news media. You claim that there is "NOT ONE credible source that has the Government lying about her actions or her capture." I have just cited two credible sources that have the military lying about how she was captured. If this was a single incident of an attempt to mis-lead than it could be argued that the Army did not intend to deceive anyone but it isn't a single incident. There is also the incident of Pat Tillman. Both of which were very high profile incidents and both of which resulted in tales of heroism being released by the military that weren't true.

In fact EVERY statement officially from the Government about her STATED for the record they did not know what she had done or the conditions of her capture and could NOT know until they finished an investigation. And when they finished said investigation they ANNOUNCED PUBLICLY that she had done NONE of the things the PRESS and certain Congressmen had claimed she did.

You can continue to blame the media for reporting the military's version of what happened but they would have a difficult time conducting their own investigation in a war zone. You can live in your own fantasy world but the rest of us live in the real world where facts do matter and where spin doctors such as yourself that work for the Pentagon or post on a message board like yourself aren't given much weight when the facts contradict what you say. I am tired of your conspiracy theories as I am sure many other people are as well. It's time for you to deal in facts instead of conspiracy theories.

All the press has is a single story from one newspaper that an "unnamed" source in the "intelligence" field told them something. And to counter that you have Pentagon statements, Central Command Statements and Sec Def statements, that say they do not know she did any of the things claimed by some "unnamed" "nonspecific" source.

Actually, as I noted above it's not a single source or a single story from one newspaper that quotes an "unnamed" source. In fact, one of the people who was quoted as giving this version of events was none other than the Chief of Media for U.S. Central Command in the Persian Gulf. When you couple this with the reports of "unnamed" U.S. officals in the Washington Post saying the same thing as the Chief of Media for the U.S. Central Command in the Persian Gulf giving the same version of events in two separate papers that were published on the same day than you don't get to claim that this isn't what they tried to do. That two separate news sources came out with the same report of events on the same day and both quote U.S. officials goes a long way to disprove your conspiracy theory.

Now is your OPPORTUNITY to spin this and make the leaders of your faction proud to have earned your vote. Please share with everyone how you think this is a conspiracy. It will make for a good laugh to hear you go on about how the Tillman family, Jessica Lynch, the media, Congressmen and everyone else who accepts the facts are involved in a conspiracy.

 

[Care4all]

We have already been over the Lynch story. There is NOT ONE credible source that has the Government lying about her actions or her capture. In fact EVERY statement officially from the Government about her STATED for the record they did not know what she had done or the conditions of her capture and could NOT know until they finished an investigation. And when they finished said investigation they ANNOUNCED PUBLICLY that she had done NONE of the things the PRESS and certain Congressmen had claimed she did.

All the press has is a single story from one newspaper that an "unnamed" source in the "intelligence" field told them something. And to counter that you have Pentagon statements, Central Command Statements and Sec Def statements, that say they do not know she did any of the things claimed by some "unnamed" "nonspecific" source.

You are being purposefully, intelectually DISHONEST.

 

[Gunny]

How do you know it was not fraticide Gunny, with all of the lies and coverup?

I hope it wasn't, and it probably wasn't.....but without knowing the whole truth, we will never know....and in this case, the family was so mislead by the very people that have done the investigation that I think they should get an investigation by a NON INTERESTED party, so to satisfy the Tillman's and the Public on this.... with no baggage attached as there was with the Pentegon's investigation which had a "stake" in the results, thus baggage.

This is the only way, the truth would be believed.

And, this also could clear the good name of the soldier that shot him by accident instead of half the country forever wondering if he really was a murderer.

If the Military was completely in the clear from any intentional wrong doing then an independent investigation will PROVE such, and end all the speculation that is taking place.

If there is nothing to hide, then why not allow this, for Mr and Mrs Tillman?

Simple. Number one, I do not default to "all the lies and coverup" since none such exist. Two, neither do I default to believing there's a conspiracy behind every event.

The investigation has been done. This is just like evrything else that you conspiracy-types get your mits on. No matter how many investigations are held, nor how in-depth, an "investigation still needs to be done" until one shows the results you want. You refuse to accept anything else.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

You are being purposefully, intelectually DISHONEST.

You already lost this argument once, wanna provide some links that prove your lies? The last ones in fact said exactly what I just said above. The US public have at their disposal all the OFFICIAL statements that CLEARLY indicate the Government has no knowledge of any action Lynch may or may not have taken. And when the Investigation was concluded the Public HAS AS PROOF the OFFICIAL announcement that all the exagerations and stories were JUST that.

Come on. Or shall I go get your old links and once again provide the specific quotes from said links that state the Government OFFICIAL denied any knowledge of her actions and needed to conduct an investigation?

 

[maineman]

You already lost this argument once, wanna provide some links that prove your lies? The last ones in fact said exactly what I just said above. The US public have at their disposal all the OFFICIAL statements that CLEARLY indicate the Government has no knowledge of any action Lynch may or may not have taken. And when the Investigation was concluded the Public HAS AS PROOF the OFFICIAL announcement that all the exagerations and stories were JUST that.

Come on. Or shall I go get your old links and once again provide the specific quotes from said links that state the Government OFFICIAL denied any knowledge of her actions and needed to conduct an investigation?

simple question RGS:

Was Capt. Frank Thorp an official CENTCOM spokesman?

yes or no?

 

[Care4all]

You already lost this argument once, wanna provide some links that prove your lies? The last ones in fact said exactly what I just said above. The US public have at their disposal all the OFFICIAL statements that CLEARLY indicate the Government has no knowledge of any action Lynch may or may not have taken. And when the Investigation was concluded the Public HAS AS PROOF the OFFICIAL announcement that all the exagerations and stories were JUST that.

Come on. Or shall I go get your old links and once again provide the specific quotes from said links that state the Government OFFICIAL denied any knowledge of her actions and needed to conduct an investigation?

Edward already gave them to you and so have I, you just CHOOSE to be dishonest about it, and ignore them and pretend you're one little comment taken from one little newspaper that was completely taken out of the context of the entire article and source regarding it is the said all and be all when it was nothing but propaganda put out by the whitehouse's media control team, as far as I am concerned! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!

Care

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Edward already gave them to you and so have I, you just CHOOSE to be dishonest about it, and ignore them and pretend you're one little comment taken from one little newspaper that was completely taken out of the context of the entire article and source regarding it is the said all and be all when it was nothing but propaganda put out by the whitehouse's media control team, as far as I am concerned! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!

Care

So ALL the evidence of PUBLIC OFFICIAL announcements from EVERY AUTHORIZED Government Source, before, during and after the Lynch Stories began, are all lies? The dishonest one is you and your cohorts.

 

[maineman]

So ALL the evidence of PUBLIC OFFICIAL announcements from EVERY AUTHORIZED Government Source, before, during and after the Lynch Stories began, are all lies? The dishonest one is you and your cohorts.

again, are you suggesting that Capt. Frank Thorp, CENTCOM spokesman, was somehow not an authorized government source?

 

[Edward]

again, are you suggesting that Capt. Frank Thorp, CENTCOM spokesman, was somehow not an authorized government source?

Yes he is and he is also suggesting that Jessica Lynch and the Tillman's are dishonest and that the soldiers who testified that they were ordered not to tell Tillman's brother how he died are liars. In short, anyone who disagrees with him is dishonest and a liar and when he cannot answer to the facts he will fall back on what AUTHORIZED sources have said or in other words he resorts to the fallacy of appealing to authority. There is no way this retard can argue that Rear Admiral Frank Thorp was not an authorized government source as Chief of Media for U.S. Central Command in the Persian Gulf. He had the authority to speak for the military and did so and was quoted as providing facts that were not true. That he is quoted doing so on the same day as other unnamed U.S. officials were quoted saying the same thing only proves that those sources are legitimate and that they were part of an attempt to deceive and to mis-lead. That two newspapers would run with the same set of facts and that they both receive information from U.S. officials should tell us something. Ironically, Thorp undermines the military's claim when he denies being the source for the Washington Post article since that means that someone else was the source and that the Washington Post felt secure in reporting what they said.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Yes he is and he is also suggesting that Jessica Lynch and the Tillman's are dishonest and that the soldiers who testified that they were ordered not to tell Tillman's brother how he died are liars. In short, anyone who disagrees with him is dishonest and a liar and when he cannot answer to the facts he will fall back on what AUTHORIZED sources have said or in other words he resorts to the fallacy of appealing to authority. There is no way this retard can argue that Rear Admiral Frank Thorp was not an authorized government source as Chief of Media for U.S. Central Command in the Persian Gulf. He had the authority to speak for the military and did so and was quoted as providing facts that were not true. That he is quoted doing so on the same day as other unnamed U.S. officials were quoted saying the same thing only proves that those sources are legitimate and that they were part of an attempt to deceive and to mis-lead. That two newspapers would run with the same set of facts and that they both receive information from U.S. officials should tell us something. Ironically, Thorp undermines the military's claim when he denies being the source for the Washington Post article since that means that someone else was the source and that the Washington Post felt secure in reporting what they said.

Ohh wait? You mean the supposed source has DENIED he said it? Imagine that.

 

[maineman]

"Thorp said that while he didn’t remember specifically the remarks quoted by the Military Times, he would NOT deny saying them. He said he does remember receiving early real-time reports from the battlefield about heroics by members of Lynch's unit, which later turned out to be inaccurate or possibly about other soldiers."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18368821/site/newsweek

 

[Alpha1]

"Thorp said that while he didn’t remember specifically the remarks quoted by the Military Times, he would NOT deny saying them. He said he does remember receiving early real-time reports from the battlefield about heroics by members of Lynch's unit, which later turned out to be inaccurate or possibly about other soldiers."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18368821/site/newsweek

Hi m...Still rehashing this tired old shit over again...lol

the article (link) you referenced seems to explain the matter...whats the mystery? Thorp got inaccurate reports and passed them on in an attempt to inform people about what he was learning....the Post hyped the stories as the media is prone to do, some in DC bought every word of the inaccurate reports and look bad for repeating them....everybody seemed to jump the gun
..........the truth finally came the light, so whats the beef....this kind of stuff happens every day on tv when it claims 'breaking news'....
you know what they know, accurate or not....there is no sinister motive except to political hacks like Waxman....

 

[maineman]

Hi m...Still rehashing this tired old shit over again...lol

the article (link) you referenced seems to explain the matter...whats the mystery? Thorp got inaccurate reports and passed them on in an attempt to inform people about what he was learning....the Post hyped the stories as the media is prone to do, some in DC bought every word of the inaccurate reports and look bad for repeating them....everybody seemed to jump the gun
..........the truth finally came the light, so whats the beef....this kind of stuff happens every day on tv when it claims 'breaking news'....
you know what they know, accurate or not....there is no sinister motive except to political hacks like Waxman....

The Post ran the story.... but so did the Army Times. And the point is: RGS's claims that no official in the government ever made any statements about Lynch's heroism is a flat out lie.

 

[Alpha1]

The Post ran the story.... but so did the Army Times. And the point is: RGS's claims that no official in the government ever made any statements about Lynch's heroism is a flat out lie.

Well I didn't put my two cents in to defend another post...

IMO, I will defend Thorp to a degree....though as foolish as it is to pass on raw reports as it comes off the battlefield, I don't believe Thorp had a sinister motive or had a malicious intent in his actions....
He probably was thinking, "here it is folks, now you know as much as I do"....he thought he doing a service....
Jessica was not coached to lie about the incident was she? I don't remember the details anymore....if that was the case, some heads should roll...

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Well I didn't put my two cents in to defend another post...

IMO, I will defend Thorp to a degree....though as foolish as it is to pass on raw reports as it comes off the battlefield, I don't believe Thorp had a sinister motive or had a malicious intent in his actions....
He probably was thinking, "here it is folks, now you know as much as I do"....he thought he doing a service....
Jessica was not coached to lie about the incident was she? I don't remember the details anymore....if that was the case, some heads should roll...

Not only wasn't she coached, she doesn't say what these conspiracy theorists claim she said. The Government made no attempt to hype anything. They consistantly downplayed the reports the media and Congressman were making and stated flatly they wouldn't know till they did a full investigation.

But these people keep claiming otherwise. Hell the reason care4all won't post any links is cause the last time she did I showed her by quotes from her own source , her claims simply were not true nor even supported by the links she provided. Same with Truthmatters. Neither one of them seem to have the reading comprehension of a 5th grader when it comes to blaming Bush for anything and everything.

 

[Alpha1]

Not only wasn't she coached, she doesn't say what these conspiracy theorists claim she said. The Government made no attempt to hype anything. They consistantly downplayed the reports the media and Congressman were making and stated flatly they wouldn't know till they did a full investigation.

But these people keep claiming otherwise. Hell the reason care4all won't post any links is cause the last time she did I showed her by quotes from her own source , her claims simply were not true nor even supported by the links she provided. Same with Truthmatters. Neither one of them seem to have the reading comprehension of a 5th grader when it comes to blaming Bush for anything and everything.

Well Gunny, Care can be reasoned with on occasion, and Desh(truthmatters) never.....I'm sure you know that already....

Thats why I addressed my 2 cents to maineman, who, more than not, can hold an intelligent conversation at times.... though he is a tenacious bird that will grab hold to anything he can and beat the shit out of it....so don't misspell anything.....

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Well Gunny, Care can be reasoned with on occasion, and Desh(truthmatters) never.....I'm sure you know that already....

Thats why I addressed my 2 cents to maineman, who, more than not, can hold an intelligent conversation at times.... though he is a tenacious bird that will grab hold to anything he can and beat the shit out of it....so don't misspell anything.....

I ignore Maineman. His attempts to dictate what and how someone responds, his refusal to ever call anyone that supports in anyway his political party on any egregious claim, lie or ignorant statement because "any ally is a good ally" and his personal attacks on anyone that doesn't agree with him are beyond the pale.

He is a perfect example of how liberals "debate" first he tries to dictate what you can and can not say, then he tries to shut you up, then he resorts to personal insults and character assassination of anyone that won't play by his "rules". He uses polls and then makes claims when others use them that polls don't prove anything, well except his polls. He thinks if he plays with a lot of big words or says LOTS of crap over and over it makes it true. Anyone that doesn't acknowledge him as the smartest brightest bulb around is an idiot according to him. He thinks he is still a Captain in the Navy and everyone else is a seaman that he can just order around. His arrogance is just to much to take. He is the ONLY person I have ever put on Ignore, that should tell you something. Ohh ya and did I forget, he demands respect while bad mouthing anyone that doesn't say what he wants and agree with his opinions.

I do not need to read his drivel to know it stinks.

 

[shepherdboy]

Not saying you're wrong. I think this a matter of individual preference. The military should tell the truth.

I'm just not willing to cry conspiracy with no facts to support it, and knowing that the military has historically "softened" the truth for family members.

I AM rather annoyed that this has been built into Tillman somehow being more important than any other servicemember who has been killed.

I've SEEN people killed during training and it never even made the local rag.

But heaven forbid MR Football Hero pay the same price.

Finally someone gets it right! That's all I am saying, that all service men and women should merit the interest and attention.