Pat Tillman: Enough already!

[Gunny]

You mean other service men and women have had similar circumstances as in they died by friendly fire but their families were told that they were killed by enemy forces? Sorry but our service members in the armed forces DESERVE the truth. No family should ever be lied to about the circumstances of their sacrifice. Tillman and Lynch are very relevant because if their families were lied to, how many other families have been told lies?

A lot. Not with bad intent, but with the mentality that the family would rather hear their family member died a hero rather than a training accident, friendly fire, or what have you.

 

[Dirt McGirt]

A lot. Not with bad intent, but with the mentality that the family would rather hear their family member died a hero rather than a training accident, friendly fire, or what have you.

Hypothetically speaking, if your wife served and died during duty, would you want the truth or a sugar coated lie?

 

[maineman]

Hypothetically speaking, if your wife served and died during duty, would you want the truth or a sugar coated lie?

actually, if it were me, what I would really want, more than anything in the whole world, would be to be able to go back in time and save her somehow.... HOW she died would pale in comparison to the fact that she DID die.

 

[Dirt McGirt]

.... HOW she died would pale in comparison to the fact that she DID die.

Sure, but being told your spouse died in a firefight from enemy forces and then later learning that your spouse was killed by friendly fire and the Army knew would make a huge difference to me.

 

[maineman]

Sure, but being told your spouse died in a firefight from enemy forces and then later learning that your spouse was killed by friendly fire and the Army knew would make a huge difference to me.

it would make a difference, but as I said, the "difference" would pale when compared to the actuality of her death - for me, anyway.

 

[Gunny]

Hypothetically speaking, if your wife served and died during duty, would you want the truth or a sugar coated lie?

Not too hypothetical ... my "X" for 13 years is a retired Marine, so asking me isn't quite fair since odds are good I would find out the truth regardless. The Corps' not THAT big.

Also, I did not say it was right. I only said it was done, and with good intent. That doesn't always make it right.

And I have mixed emotions about it. Would YOU rather believe your son died a hero? Or was killed in an accident down at supply?

 

[Dirt McGirt]

Not too hypothetical ... my "X" for 13 years is a retired Marine, so asking me isn't quite fair since odds are good I would find out the truth regardless. The Corps' not THAT big.

Also, I did not say it was right. I only said it was done, and with good intent. That doesn't always make it right.

And I have mixed emotions about it. Would YOU rather believe your son died a hero? Or was killed in an accident down at supply?

I'd want the truth. I could probably forgive an accident down at the supply. But I'd probably always hate a group of people that I believed killed my son. It wouldn't be right for me to blame or hate someone for an unjust reason.

 

[Gunny]

I'd want the truth. I could probably forgive an accident down at the supply. But I'd probably always hate a group of people that I believed killed my son. It wouldn't be right for me to blame or hate someone for an unjust reason.

Not saying you're wrong. I think this a matter of individual preference. The military should tell the truth.

I'm just not willing to cry conspiracy with no facts to support it, and knowing that the military has historically "softened" the truth for family members.

I AM rather annoyed that this has been built into Tillman somehow being more important than any other servicemember who has been killed.

I've SEEN people killed during training and it never even made the local rag.

But heaven forbid MR Football Hero pay the same price.

 

[Waterrescuedude]

The problem is that his family was not told how he died from the start. Their right to know how their loved one died was violated. Their right to receive a sense of closure was infringed upon. Those who are crying foul are his family and yet you attempt to make it about the media to sidetrack from the attack you just made upon his family members. You say "enough already" but his family doesn't agree with that and you don't get to play with their lives and mock the death of their loved one as you just did. That you would do so demonstrates how sick you are. It doesn't matter how many others died under similiar circumstances. He is not just another soldier who died. One such death is one to many yet you fail to understand that because you are evil. Just my 2 cents!!!

I say .25 because back in the day it was 2 we didnt compensate for inflation.

Anyways to my points.

#1.) He was special forces. Which means he had a top secret clearance. If it is considered a classified mission then the family DOES NOT have the right to know. Its set up that way to protect national security.
#2.) Our military is strictly volunteer. He signed up. He should have known that he might have to go into combat. I know when I went in I took an oath and that I might have to give my life in defense of my nation. I accepted that fact when I raised my right hand and signed on the dotted line... Yes he made the ultimate sacrifice. But we will never know for sure what it was. Because supposedly they were fighting tangos at the time.

 

[Care4all]

I say .25 because back in the day it was 2 we didnt compensate for inflation.

Anyways to my points.

#1.) He was special forces. Which means he had a top secret clearance. If it is considered a classified mission then the family DOES NOT have the right to know. Its set up that way to protect national security.
#2.) Our military is strictly volunteer. He signed up. He should have known that he might have to go into combat. I know when I went in I took an oath and that I might have to give my life in defense of my nation. I accepted that fact when I raised my right hand and signed on the dotted line... Yes he made the ultimate sacrifice. But we will never know for sure what it was. Because supposedly they were fighting tangos at the time.

water??? he should have known he was going in to combat? you don't know his story then? HE quit his NFL boocoo bucks pay position and joined the Army in order to GO IN TO Afghanistan.

And most people going in to war know they may be killed in combat by the enemy, they don't expect to be shot between the eyes at fairly close range, by a fellow soldier, and then have the whole ordeal from those on the ground to the highest commander cover it up and lie about it or in the very least allow the lies to permiate, and the truth held from the surviving family for 5 weeks, do you think? I don't think so, and this is why this case gets the abnormal attention that it does, imo.

care

In his honor, let the truth, at least on that, be known.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

water??? he should have known he was going in to combat? you don't know his story then? HE quit his NFL boocoo bucks pay position and joined the Army in order to GO IN TO Afghanistan.

And most people going in to war know they may be killed in combat by the enemy, they don't expect to be shot between the eyes at fairly close range, by a fellow soldier, and then have the whole ordeal from those on the ground to the highest commander cover it up and lie about it or in the very least allow the lies to permiate, and the truth held from the surviving family for 5 weeks, do you think? I don't think so, and this is why this case gets the abnormal attention that it does, imo.

care

In his honor, let the truth, at least on that, be known.

The Truth is known, what you really mean is "tell us Bush ordered him murdered". They couldn't keep the "secret" he died of friendly fire, so exactly how have they kept the secret he was really murdered for all these years?

 

[Gunny]

water??? he should have known he was going in to combat? you don't know his story then? HE quit his NFL boocoo bucks pay position and joined the Army in order to GO IN TO Afghanistan.

And most people going in to war know they may be killed in combat by the enemy, they don't expect to be shot between the eyes at fairly close range, by a fellow soldier, and then have the whole ordeal from those on the ground to the highest commander cover it up and lie about it or in the very least allow the lies to permiate, and the truth held from the surviving family for 5 weeks, do you think? I don't think so, and this is why this case gets the abnormal attention that it does, imo.

care

In his honor, let the truth, at least on that, be known.

If he wasn't aware that thousands of US troops dies from friendly flire in EVERY war, and training accidents every year, then he just wasn't paying attention to all the facts.

This case is getting the abnormal attention it is because he was a pro football player and a household name. No other reason. The only suspiciousness to the incident is concocted.

There is NOTHING that makes Pat Tillman's death any more or less important than anyone else's.

 

[Care4all]

If he wasn't aware that thousands of US troops dies from friendly flire in EVERY war, and training accidents every year, then he just wasn't paying attention to all the facts.

This case is getting the abnormal attention it is because he was a pro football player and a household name. No other reason. The only suspiciousness to the incident is concocted.

There is NOTHING that makes Pat Tillman's death any more or less important than anyone else's.

How do you know it was not fraticide Gunny, with all of the lies and coverup?

I hope it wasn't, and it probably wasn't.....but without knowing the whole truth, we will never know....and in this case, the family was so mislead by the very people that have done the investigation that I think they should get an investigation by a NON INTERESTED party, so to satisfy the Tillman's and the Public on this.... with no baggage attached as there was with the Pentegon's investigation which had a "stake" in the results, thus baggage.

This is the only way, the truth would be believed.

And, this also could clear the good name of the soldier that shot him by accident instead of half the country forever wondering if he really was a murderer.

If the Military was completely in the clear from any intentional wrong doing then an independent investigation will PROVE such, and end all the speculation that is taking place.

If there is nothing to hide, then why not allow this, for Mr and Mrs Tillman?

 

[Waterrescuedude]

water??? he should have known he was going in to combat? you don't know his story then? HE quit his NFL boocoo bucks pay position and joined the Army in order to GO IN TO Afghanistan.

And most people going in to war know they may be killed in combat by the enemy, they don't expect to be shot between the eyes at fairly close range, by a fellow soldier, and then have the whole ordeal from those on the ground to the highest commander cover it up and lie about it or in the very least allow the lies to permiate, and the truth held from the surviving family for 5 weeks, do you think? I don't think so, and this is why this case gets the abnormal attention that it does, imo.

care

In his honor, let the truth, at least on that, be known.

That he quit his football career. "In his honor, let the truth, at least on that, be known." He is just a normal person like all of us. I do think it was admirible of him to join. And you know what friendly fire does occasionally happen. Look at when we accidently bombed one of our own vehicles. It happened got about 2 days of news coverage and was never again mentioned. But anyways my point is he was special forces yes or no? And did he volunteer yes or no?? Special forces of any kind has to have a top secret clearance as most of the stuff they do is covert. If someone dies in combat and it was actually a top secret mission then they will say it was in a training accident or something of the likes.

 

[Waterrescuedude]

"The only suspiciousness to the incident is concocted. There is NOTHING that makes Pat Tillman's death any more or less important than anyone else's."

I never said it was more or less important. He made the ultimate sacrifice and is now on watch waiting for the next world war. He was a hero just like an man or woman in uniform

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Our Government and our military can not keep intelligence agents from telling secrets, they can not keep activists from telling secrets , they can not keep foreign governments from learning our secrets. BUT we are to believe that the Army and the White House have secretly murdered Tillman and managed to keep it and all the people involved in it quiet for all this time?

We already know what happened. Some soldier or soldiers accidently shot him in a friendly fire incident. The Army flubbed the first and even the second investigation and has paid for that.

As to your use of the word Fratricide , well ya the army calls any case of friendly fire that also. So using that word does not somehow mean premeditated or even less then premeditated murder. It is simply a term for friendly fire.

Remind me again how Building 7 was secretly the command center for the US Government run attack on the WTC and the Pentagon. How Cheney using a Nintendo Controller flew 3 airplanes into buildings and the US Air Force shot down the 4th. Ohh wait, I think the latest spiel is there were no planes they were either missiles or remotely pilotted drones, the planes safely landed at secret bases and all the passengers were paid off to keep quiet.

That is just as sane as your repeated claims that some nefarious plot occurred between all those Rangers, all those independent Officers and the White House to cover up a murder.

 

[Care4all]

That he quit his football career. "In his honor, let the truth, at least on that, be known." He is just a normal person like all of us. I do think it was admirible of him to join. And you know what friendly fire does occasionally happen. Look at when we accidently bombed one of our own vehicles. It happened got about 2 days of news coverage and was never again mentioned. But anyways my point is he was special forces yes or no? And did he volunteer yes or no?? Special forces of any kind has to have a top secret clearance as most of the stuff they do is covert. If someone dies in combat and it was actually a top secret mission then they will say it was in a training accident or something of the likes.

I do realize that accidents happen.

I do not believe, like some, that the whitehouse, had anything to do with his actual death!!!

I do believe, that if he was murdered by a fellow soldier, as the coverup implies, that justice is due.

I do not believe that anyone, should ''get away with'' murder.

There are a couple of hands full of unanswered, legitimate questions, that need to be looked in to further and answered honestly and in depth...we need to get some truthful answers, then move on from there...

if there is independently, findings that prove it was not as the medical examiners said, that Tillman could have been shot intentionally, from as close as 10 yards and not the 150 yards which is what was put in the Coverup report, that would end alot of this speculation, right quick!

 

[Edward]

Nice try, but I never said that the Tillman family had no right to pursue the truth of the death of thier son. You would agree that the media has hijacked this particular story and drummed up the attention to sell newspapers? Like I said in the thread, others service men and women have had similar circumstances with out the full focus of the media. Just curious, have you ever served in the Armed Forces of the United States?

I do not believe that the media has hijacked anything. In fact, I believe that the Tillman family has placed pressure on the media to get to the bottom of how their family member died and why they were not told the truth from the start. That is their right to do and the media is often the only group that can act as an advocate for those who do not have the resources necessary to take the military to task and to demand the truth of how their family member died. Had the media not covered this story this family would never have been told the entire truth nor would those responsible for mis-leading them been held accountable.

The difference between other soldiers who have died including from friendly fire and Tillman is that their families were not deceived about the cause of death so that the military could save face and use his death as propaganda. They actually told Tillman's family that he died from enemy fire and awarded him the Silver Star and promoted him posthumously at a memorial service that was televised nationally even though General Abizaid was notified four days prior to the memorial service that he had died as a result of friendly fire. No one told the family the truth, and they allowed the Tillman family and the American people to believe that Tillman had died under conditions that did not exist. The truth was not a bad thing. Soldiers die in war and they die from enemy fire as well as friendly fire yet those who died deserve the truth. They don't deserve to be used or to have their families misled. It was truly a mockery of his ultimate sacrifice and his willingness to serve his country to mislead his family as the Army did. We also know that they misled his brother who was also an Army Ranger who served with his brother in Afghanistan and who escorted his body back to the United States. We know from testimony that soldiers were ordered not to tell him how his brother died. We cannot simply say that this story was hijacked by anyone especially the media when in reality an Army Ranger has expressed his outrage at being deceived about how his brother died and when the Tillman family was told that their loved one died as a result of enemy fire when this wasn't true.

This is also true of the lies told about how Jessica Lynch was captured. We know the truth from her only because she was willing to deny that she was a hero and the version of events put out by the Pentagon. It is this kind of integrity that should be commended because had she not done so we would still be faced with the version of events that the Pentagon wanted us to believe about her capture and rescue. In her own words "I have repeatedly said, when asked, that if the stories about me helped inspire our troops and rally a nation, then perhaps there was some good. However, I am still confused as to why they chose to lie and tried to make me a legend when the real heroics of my fellow soldiers that day were, in fact, legendary. People like Lori Piestewa and First Sergeant Dowdy who picked up fellow soldiers in harms way. Or people like Patrick Miller and Sergeant Donald Walters who actually fought until the very end. The American people are capable of determining their own ideals for heroes and they don’t need to be told elaborate tales."

Those speaking out are those who have served in the military including in Afghanistan and Iraq. They are the ones who want the truth to be known and it is only right that we help them in telling the truth. Specialist Tillman, and PFC Lynch deserved the truth. It is great that Specialist Tillman was promoted to Corporal posthumously and awarded the Silver Star. It is even better that his sacrifice was noted but the Army told lies in both cases in other to expand upon the truth to make the truth something it was not. They saw an opportunity both in the case of Tillman and Lynch to create a story of heroism that didn't exist when heroes are dying in every battle. The heroism was true but the account of what had happened was not. Patrick Tillman died a hero and the Army mocked his sacrifice by trying to make it something it was not and now the Army is trying to cover its butt by speaking platitudes to the family and offering a fall-guy. The Tillman family could simply accept this just like Jessica Lynch could have accepted the story which was told about her because it made her look like a hero but doing so ignores the truth. I do not doubt that the Tillman family consider their loved one a hero because he was. He joined the military after 9-11 to defend his country. He went to war and he answered the call of his nation. He was truly a hero and yet the Army chose to belittle the sacrifices he made every day in order to create a story of heroism that made him into something he was not. I wish the Tillman family the best and hope they get to the bottom of this and get the truth and that those responsible for creating this story are held accountable for misleading them.

 

[Edward]

A lot. Not with bad intent, but with the mentality that the family would rather hear their family member died a hero rather than a training accident, friendly fire, or what have you.

That is bad intent. In the words of Jessica Lynch: "I have repeatedly said, when asked, that if the stories about me helped inspire our troops and rally a nation, then perhaps there was some good. However, I am still confused as to why they chose to lie and tried to make me a legend when the real heroics of my fellow soldiers that day were, in fact, legendary. People like Lori Piestewa and First Sergeant Dowdy who picked up fellow soldiers in harms way. Or people like Patrick Miller and Sergeant Donald Walters who actually fought until the very end. The bottom line is the American people are capable of determining their own ideals for heroes and they don’t need to be told elaborate tales." The truth is the truth and our soldiers and their families deserve the truth. Also, Patrick Tillman did die a hero. He was a hero and his sacrifice and service will not be forgotten by his family. The circumstances of his death did not make him any less a hero and that you would suggest that the family would whether have a lie about how their loved one died in order to think of him as a hero whether than the truth which somehow in your mind makes him less a hero is offensive. It is offensive our troops who make sacrifices every day for their country. It is offensive to those soldiers are wounded and die in the line of duty. It is offensive to the families of those who have made the ultimate sacrifice and it is offensive to the American people who support our troops and who consider them heroes simply for answering the call of duty. Pat Tillman isn't any less a hero because of how he died.

 

[Edward]

Not too hypothetical ... my "X" for 13 years is a retired Marine, so asking me isn't quite fair since odds are good I would find out the truth regardless. The Corps' not THAT big.

Also, I did not say it was right. I only said it was done, and with good intent. That doesn't always make it right.

And I have mixed emotions about it. Would YOU rather believe your son died a hero? Or was killed in an accident down at supply?

I would whether have the truth because the truth is all that you have after you lose a loved one. It's all that you have as you seek to find closure and its the only thing that you can fall back on as you remember their birth, their childhood, their becoming an adult, their smiles and their sense of humor and compassion. The last thing you want is to be told something that isn't true because the truth about them is all you have. A lie doesn't serve you. You don't remember them for who they were if what you know is a lie and that is what you want. You want to remember everything about them. You want to remember their face, their smile, their laugh and you want to know what the last moments of their life was like so you can honor them. We should not forget that those who die in an accident down at supply while serving their country are still heroes to their families. That you would suggest that they are not is offensive.