Partial Birth Abortion Ban

There is also the fact that with each male ejaculation, somewhere approaching 200,000,000 sperm are released with only one (rarely 2 or more) being the winner in the upstream swim.

The chances of you being a living being are rather astronomical to begin with and the fact of the point of beginning of real life remains an enigma.

Arguing about abortion or right to death (anti-abortionists) is truly a personal opinion and has nothing to do with reality.

When abortion was illegal in this country, a great majority of those women desiring abortions got them in basements, garages or back alleys.

The percentage of deaths of both mother and child (pre Roe vs. Wade) were significant so that those who appose abortion are actually pro-death of a living mother and a potential life that has not had its first breath.

Frankly, I adore your catchy slogan, “Adoption, not Abortion,” although no one has been able to figure out, even with expert counseling, how to use adoption as a method of birth control, or at what time of the month it is most effective.

ATTRIBUTION: Barbara Ehrenreich
 
I am new here, and I haven't taken the time to read the 12 pages that preceed this one on this topic... but has anyone asked the fundamental question:

Does the federal government have the right to regulate abortion at all?

What i'm getting at is, is this a federal question or should it be determined on a state by state basis, as it used to be...
 
BatGuano asks. "I am new here, and I haven't taken the time to read the 12 pages that preceed this one on this topic... but has anyone asked the fundamental question: Does the federal government have the right to regulate abortion at all?"

Abortion is both a moral and social issue and not a function of Uncle Sam. If you kill another person who is a living being and breaths, the federal and local governments have the right to regulate murder but what happens before life enters the baby has nothing whatsoever to do with government intervention. The womand and in some cases the spouse has to make their own moral and ethical decision based on their own beliefs.

"What i'm getting at is, is this a federal question or should it be determined on a state by state basis, as it used to be..."

Neither the US Constitution nor Declaration of Independence regulates abortion. The issue has been triedin the courts and the streets by personal opinions and beliefs but the end result is that abortion is now covered and protected by a Supreme Court Decision.

This issue is less a real issue and more of a tool of apposing political parties. It really doesn't matter what legislation is passed for or against abortion, this practice will not stop because of any social legislation. Jesus Christ new of aborition in his own time and in his New Testament bible, never even mentioned it.
 
Originally posted by ajwps
Neither the US Constitution nor Declaration of Independence regulates abortion. The issue has been triedin the courts and the streets by personal opinions and beliefs but the end result is that abortion is now covered and protected by a Supreme Court Decision.

This issue is less a real issue and more of a tool of apposing political parties. It really doesn't matter what legislation is passed for or against abortion, this practice will not stop because of any social legislation. Jesus Christ new of aborition in his own time and in his New Testament bible, never even mentioned it.

You hit it right on the head, ajwps. Nowhere in the Consitution is abortion mentioned. The Supreme Court decision Roe v. Wade links abortion with a 'right to privacy' based on the Fourth Amendment rights that protect people from unreasonable searches. Batamo's question is very appropriate - should abortion be handled by the federal gov't, or the state govt's? I think that the states should be able to regulate abortion on their own, without interference from the federal gov't.

And what exactly is the argument about Jesus not saying anything about abortion?
 
Your own opinion about a living human being's right to privacy and her own body cannot be infringed on by State or Federal legislation. That is a social issue and if you decide that you know when life or the soul enters the human being, then you are the only one on earth who know so for certain.

"And what exactly is the argument about Jesus not saying anything about abortion?"

If Jesus after his death on the cross instructed St. Paul and others to write his bible, why did he not see fit to include something so important which involved his heavenly realm of life the soul or the taking of the unborn from the womb?

What sort of god would avoid such a hot button issue as he was aware of abortion practices in his day some 2100 years ago? If Jesus could not prohibit abortion, how is it that his church seems to know more than Jesus himself?




:confused:
 
Originally posted by ajwps
Your own opinion about a living human being's right to privacy and her own body cannot be infringed on by State or Federal legislation. That is a social issue and if you decide that you know when life or the soul enters the human being, then you are the only one on earth who know so for certain.

Again, my point is that the right ot privacy is based on the Courts interpretation of the 4th Amendment. The amendment does not read "Congress shall make no law infringing on the right to privacy, or to abortion on demand." As an interpretation, it is open to re-interpretation. My interpretation of it is that there is no authority in the Constitution for the federal gov't to regulate abortion one way or the other, so it should be delegated to the states, as per the 10th amendment. However, as I am not part of the majority opinion on teh Supreme Court, my opinion doesn't get to be part of the law.

If Jesus after his death on the cross instructed St. Paul and others to write his bible, why did he not see fit to include something so important which involved his heavenly realm of life the soul or the taking of the unborn from the womb?

What sort of god would avoid such a hot button issue as he was aware of abortion practices in his day some 2100 years ago? If Jesus could not prohibit abortion, how is it that his church seems to know more than Jesus himself?

Jesus didn't talk about a lot of things. Did he talk about abortion? No. Homosexuality? No. Gun control? No. etc. etc. ad nausem. That doesn't mean that he didn't have an opinion about it. For instance, homosexuality was specifically condemned in the OT (Jewish Law), and that was upheld by all members of society. So there was no need to address it. In the case of abortion... first, I'd love to know how you are so sure that he was aware of all the abortions going on in Jerusalem's back alleys; second, I'd like to see how rampant abortion was in that day, and third, I'd like to know how many partial-birth abortions there were in that day (since that was my original point). Fourth, you say that "Jesus could not prohibit abortion." I contend that it was not an issue that He needed to bring up, because people didn't need to be told that killing a baby growing inside its mother's womb was wrong.
 
go_jeff says

"Again, my point is that the right ot privacy is based on the Courts interpretation of the 4th Amendment. The amendment does not read "Congress shall make no law infringing on the right to privacy, or to abortion on demand." As an interpretation, it is open to re-interpretation. My interpretation of it is that there is no authority in the Constitution for the federal gov't to regulate abortion one way or the other, so it should be delegated to the states, as per the 10th amendment. However, as I am not part of the majority opinion on teh Supreme Court, my opinion doesn't get to be part of the law."

---The Declaration of Indepence supercedes all man made amendments to the Constitution which permits such amendments to begin with:

2nd paragraph:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.


That any government, whether it be Federal, State, Local or Municipal has NO right to remove these three unalienable freedoms inherent in all men and women nor infringe on men or women's safety and happiness. Nor interfer with a woman's safety and her right to her own happiness to continue with a non-souled entity within her. How much clearer does anyone need it to be that no human beings safety or happiness can be legislated away from them. The unborn child, like any alien is not a human until such time as the Creator makes it another citizen of this world. Neither the government, you or I know when that occurs.

"Jesus didn't talk about a lot of things. Did he talk about abortion? No. Homosexuality? No. Gun control? No. etc. etc. ad nausem. That doesn't mean that he didn't have an opinion about it."

Jesus did speak on homosexuality as defined in his Father's Old Testament. If Jesus did deem abortion a sin then he would certainly have mentioned it. Jesus did not talk about gun control as there were no guns to control. But Jesus reiterated his Father's commandment to refrain from the murder of living soul bearing human beings. If Jesus had an opinion on abortion, he certainly did keep it to himself otherwise you would see the anti-abortionist (killers) screaming from their voice boxes about it ad-nausem.

"For instance, homosexuality was specifically condemned in the OT (Jewish Law), and that was upheld by all members of society. So there was no need to address it. In the case of abortion... first, I'd love to know how you are so sure that he was aware of all the abortions going on in Jerusalem's back alleys;..."

Correct.... The Old Testament spoke against homosexuality but referenced the fact that a human being does not obtain the soul (as we understand it) until it took it's first breath and like with
Adam throughout the eons of time. In the case of abortion, it was not illegal and was not carried on in back alleys or garages but was done by the healers of the day with herbs and medicaments that induced the aborting of the fetus. Abortion in the time of Jesus was open and there was no prohibition against it as referenced by the only historian of that time. His name was Josephus.

"Fourth, you say that "Jesus could not prohibit abortion." I contend that it was not an issue that He needed to bring up, because people didn't need to be told that killing a baby growing inside its mother's womb was wrong."

Firstly I did not say that Jesus 'could not' prohibit abortion, I said he did not prohibit abortion. Secondly how is that you are aware of the morays and understandings of the people of Jesus time in Israel concerning abortions? For the historian Josephus didn't even find it important enough to mention that there was concern about the removal of a non-living baby with no soul growing in it's mother's womb of that time. As a matter of fact, the Old Testament gives significant evidence that a baby that never had taken a breath (i.e., still born or aborted) need not have the usual burial rights but if the baby died after its first breath it deserved the full burial rites and prayers of a living human being.

The religious Jews (and Jesus was a religious Jew) continue this Torah (Old Testament) edict to this very day.


All man has to go on is the words that were supposedly written by the Creator and not everyone imposing their personal opinions on others.
 
i agree. when the brain is formed, in my opinion, it is murder to abort, and the only way i can justify abortion is if the mothers life is in danger, or if it is a case of rape or incest. people need to take responsibility for their actions, and abortion should not be used as an "out" for parents who are not "ready".
furthermore, it should be law in all states that the father, if known, be notified if a woman goes for an abortion. going back to my statement of not using abortion as an "out", if the woman does not want the baby, after birth, the father should be given the chance to raise his child, or the child should be given up for adoption. men should have an equal say in such a lifechanging decision. we are more than just a donor of dna.
 
Originally posted by Green Lantern

"i agree. when the brain is formed, in my opinion, it is murder to abort,"

Answer me this then, when is the brain fully formed?

"and the only way i can justify abortion is if the mothers life is in danger, or if it is a case of rape or incest. people need to take responsibility for their actions, and abortion should not be used as an "out" for parents who are not "ready".

Then that is your personal opinion?

furthermore, it should be law in all states that the father, if known, be notified if a woman goes for an abortion. going back to my statement of not using abortion as an "out", if the woman does not want the baby,

You might then want to go to the US Supreme Court to change the current law to conform to your own personal opinion!

"after birth, the father should be given the chance to raise his child, or the child should be given up for adoption. men should have an equal say in such a lifechanging decision. we are more than just a donor of dna."

"The father then asked the divorce court judge, "If I put 75 cents in a coke machine and it gives me my coke, who does the coke belong to, me or the machine?"

I believe that it is the man's child as it is he who has the pains of conception, the woman just gets to carry the forming fetus around for awhile.

Seriously, abortion has been with mankind for many eons and the morality and ethics of same has always involved individual's personal choices. The legislation of morality is a very slippery slope.
 
You can talk about the brain, but what about 3 weeks into conception and the heart is beating, to me, a heart beat is life!!! what should the brain matter??? sorry, as long as the little thing inside of you has a beating heart, it's life!!!!!!!

As far as the Father is concerned, questioning a can of coke to being a father is silly!! DNA - all it take sis a blood test to determine who the Daddy is. And I have seen many cases where the Father didn't know about the baby and had asked why they weren't told, and that THEY had rights in knowing about it, and could have raised the child themselves, seldom, but it has been in some cases. Not to mention people wanting children that can't have them.
 
Originally posted by janeeng

"You can talk about the brain, but what about 3 weeks into conception and the heart is beating, to me, a heart beat is life!!! what should the brain matter??? sorry, as long as the little thing inside of you has a beating heart, it's life!!!!!!!"

A beating heart, a forming brain, a great toenail but what is the meaning of 'it's life?" A fetal puppy dog, a fish in roe eggs, a fetal elephant and a fetal human all have beating hearts and brain matter not to mention a growing virus has a form of life.

What constitutes a life and what constitutes a human soul as differentiated from all other life forms on the earth? You are bordering on theology and your own opinion with a beating heart or brain matter.

Have you ever heard of a dermoid cyst? This is a woman's ova that has not been fertilized but develops into a rather large mass of tissue that has incorporated into it, teeth, hair, thyroid tissue, heart tissue, brain tissue and many other bits and pieces of a human being. Is there a life or a soul somewhere in this abnormal growth on the uterus?


"As far as the Father is concerned, questioning a can of coke to being a father is silly!!"

It was meant to be a joke. Lighten up as it was an analogy.

"DNA - all it take sis a blood test to determine who the Daddy is. And I have seen many cases where the Father didn't know about the baby and had asked why they weren't told, and that THEY had rights in knowing about it, and could have raised the child themselves, seldom, but it has been in some cases. Not to mention people wanting children that can't have them."

Great argument for adoption of unwanted babies but the reality is that some women and men do not want to deliver a live baby that takes a breath just to give it up for adoption while others do. Each human being is ultimately responsible for their own actions (notwithstanding Jesus forgiving of sins on Sunday only to begin again on Monday) making the decision to abort or adopt a personal decision which is impossible to legislate by any court of man.

Like prostitution, abortion has been here since recorded time and will be with us as long as humans inhabit the earth.
 
Originally posted by ajwps
---The Declaration of Indepence supercedes all man made amendments to the Constitution which permits such amendments to begin with:

That any government, whether it be Federal, State, Local or Municipal has NO right to remove these three unalienable freedoms inherent in all men and women nor infringe on men or women's safety and happiness. Nor interfer with a woman's safety and her right to her own happiness to continue with a non-souled entity within her. How much clearer does anyone need it to be that no human beings safety or happiness can be legislated away from them. The unborn child, like any alien is not a human until such time as the Creator makes it another citizen of this world. Neither the government, you or I know when that occurs.

First, while the Declaration is a very important paper, and while it is in many ways the foundation of our government, it technicaly has no legal standing - that is, one cannot appeal a law simply because it violates something in the DoI. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land.
Secondly, while the government is there to allow for our life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, every law on the books is there to decrease those rights in return for internal security. For example, it made Gary Ridgeway (the Green River Killer) very happy to pick up prostitutes, kill them, and throw their bodies in the river. Obviously, it's against the law, even though it infringes on his right to pursue happiness.

Jesus did speak on homosexuality as defined in his Father's Old Testament. If Jesus did deem abortion a sin then he would certainly have mentioned it. Jesus did not talk about gun control as there were no guns to control. But Jesus reiterated his Father's commandment to refrain from the murder of living soul bearing human beings. If Jesus had an opinion on abortion, he certainly did keep it to himself otherwise you would see the anti-abortionist (killers) screaming from their voice boxes about it ad-nausem.

OK, let me clarify... Jesus, during His earthly ministry, did not address homosexuality. This is because people understood that is was wrong.

Correct.... The Old Testament spoke against homosexuality but referenced the fact that a human being does not obtain the soul (as we understand it) until it took it's first breath and like with Adam throughout the eons of time. In the case of abortion, it was not illegal and was not carried on in back alleys or garages but was done by the healers of the day with herbs and medicaments that induced the aborting of the fetus. Abortion in the time of Jesus was open and there was no prohibition against it as referenced by the only historian of that time. His name was Josephus.

How about the OT references like, "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you," (Jeremiah), or similiar references in the Psalms? It would seem that a human is known by God before most people today would call that person a "viable fetus."
I have not read Josephus, but I have never heard of his references to abortion. I don't suppose you could summarize them? I find it hard to believe that, in an age when many infants didn't survive their first years, and people had several children in the hopes that a few survived, that abortion would have been widespread.

Firstly I did not say that Jesus 'could not' prohibit abortion, I said he did not prohibit abortion. Secondly how is that you are aware of the morays and understandings of the people of Jesus time in Israel concerning abortions? For the historian Josephus didn't even find it important enough to mention that there was concern about the removal of a non-living baby with no soul growing in it's mother's womb of that time. As a matter of fact, the Old Testament gives significant evidence that a baby that never had taken a breath (i.e., still born or aborted) need not have the usual burial rights but if the baby died after its first breath it deserved the full burial rites and prayers of a living human being.

Here's your exact quote:
If Jesus could not prohibit abortion, how is it that his church seems to know more than Jesus himself?
Religious rites aside, it was still a tragedy when a baby was bron stillborn.

The religious Jews (and Jesus was a religious Jew) continue this Torah (Old Testament) edict to this very day.
All man has to go on is the words that were supposedly written by the Creator and not everyone imposing their personal opinions on others.

First, Jesus was the opposite of a religious Jew - in fact, he condemned the Jew's religiousness because in practicing the Law, they lost sight of the spirit of the Law. If Jesus had beena typical religious Jew, He would not have been so reviled by the priests of the day.
Second, if the words were only "supposedly" written by the Creator, what weight does that hold? It might as well just be another book - unless the words are truly divinely inspired. But that's another thread altogether.
 
Do any of us truly know when the spirit is entered to the body??? I can't say I know, but I would think that once a fetus has formed a heart and brain, why wouldn't it be entered then?
 
maybe I look it this in a radical way but I believe that once the egg and sperm join together AND start to grow, one cell-two cells four cells and so on there is LIFE! where there is growth there is life. would not the spirit present then?
 
Originally posted by gop_jeff

"First, while the Declaration is a very important paper, and while it is in many ways the foundation of our government, it technicaly has no legal standing - that is, one cannot appeal a law simply because it violates something in the DoI. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land. Secondly, while the government is there to allow for our life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, every law on the books is there to decrease those rights in return for internal security. For example, it made Gary Ridgeway (the Green River Killer) very happy to pick up prostitutes, kill them, and throw their bodies in the river. Obviously, it's against the law, even though it infringes on his right to pursue happiness."

Jeff do you know what the original functions of the US government were intended as defined by the founders?

1) Protect America from foreign invaders
2) Print money
3) Settle disputes between states

That was it.......

The Amendments to the Constitution have radically changed those three functions that were designed to prevent the government from getting into American's lives, liberties and pursuit of happiness as laid down for the citizens of these United States.

As for people like murderers having any rights under the Constitution, the fact that they took the civil liberties of others invalidates their own. English law and subsequently most western law was based on the premises laid down by the infamous Ten Commandments.

The taking of an unborn child (abortion) does not qualify as a taking of life or the removal of any civil liberties enjoyed by a forming baby that may or may not have a living soul within it.

The Commandment that prohibits the murder of a living soul is covered under the precepts of this Law. But the precept does not cover the taking of a non-life as described within the text of the Old Testament. [/b]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus did speak on homosexuality as defined in his Father's Old Testament. If Jesus did deem abortion a sin then he would certainly have mentioned it. Jesus did not talk about gun control as there were no guns to control. But Jesus reiterated his Father's commandment to refrain from the murder of living soul bearing human beings. If Jesus had an opinion on abortion, he certainly did keep it to himself otherwise you would see the anti-abortionist (killers) scream from their voice boxes about it ad-nausem.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"OK, let me clarify... Jesus, during His earthly ministry, did not address homosexuality. This is because people understood that is was wrong."

Oh but Jesus did directly address homosexuality. Did Jesus not state that he had not come to change one iota or dot of the original Old Testament that he lived by his entire 31 years? Homosexuality was addressed in the Old Testament.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Correct.... The Old Testament spoke against homosexuality but referenced the fact that a human being does not obtain the soul (as we understand it) until it took it's first breath and like with Adam throughout the eons of time. In the case of abortion, it was not illegal and was not carried on in back alleys or garages but was done by the healers of the day with herbs and medicaments that induced the aborting of the fetus. Abortion in the time of Jesus was open and there was no prohibition against it as referenced by the only historian of that time. His name was Josephus.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"How about the OT references like, "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you," (Jeremiah), or similiar references in the Psalms?"

That’s easy. As I can read the original Hebrew text; the reference is that G-d knew you before He formed you in the womb and as the soul that was created and held by the Creator until the time that the baby took its first breath. There is no reference to the fact that the Creator knew you while your soul was within the forming baby.

"It would seem that a human is known by God before most "people today would call that person a "viable fetus."

True, very true...

"I have not read Josephus, but I have never heard of his references to abortion. I don't suppose you could summarize them? I find it hard to believe that, in an age when many infants didn't survive their first years, and people had several children in the hopes that a few survived, that abortion would have been widespread."

Josephus was a Jewish historian whose writings remain mostly intact today except for the inclusion of the few Jesus references inserted many years after Josephus' death. Josephus wrote the history of the day in ways that were not direct because he too would have been just another crucified Jew among the thousands upon thousands killed by the Romans in their way of execution.

Josephus wrote of the abortion methods being employed by the healers of his day some 2100 years ago. He wrote nothing about the religious implications of abortion as evidenced by the absence of its prohibition and which did not exist amongst the people of ancient Israel.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Firstly I did not say that Jesus 'could not' prohibit abortion, I said he did not prohibit abortion. Secondly how is that you are aware of the morays and understandings of the people of Jesus time in Israel concerning abortions? For the historian Josephus didn't even find it important enough to mention that there was concern about the removal of a non-living baby with no soul growing in it's mother's womb of that time. As a matter of fact, the Old Testament gives significant evidence that a baby that never had taken a breath (i.e., still born or aborted) need not have the usual burial rights but if the baby died after its first breath it deserved the full burial rites and prayers of a living human being.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Here's your exact quote:"

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If Jesus could not prohibit abortion, how is it that his church seems to know more than Jesus himself?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you for correcting my error in using the word could instead of did not which was my original thought.

"Religious rites aside, it was still a tragedy when a baby was bron stillborn."

Yes it is always a tragedy for the relatives of a stillborn who usually wish for potential progeny to carry on their lineage.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The religious Jews (and Jesus was a religious Jew) continue this Torah (Old Testament) edict to this very day.
All man has to go on is the words that were supposedly written by the Creator and not everyone imposing their personal opinions on others.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"First, Jesus was the opposite of a religious Jew - in fact, he condemned the Jew's religiousness because in practicing the Law, they lost sight of the spirit of the Law. If Jesus had beena typical religious Jew, He would not have been so reviled by the priests of the day."

First, Jesus was a religious Jew during his own lifetime. His special status as a savior and deity was written and revised many years and times after his crucifixion. Ergo Jesus activities and beliefs while walking the earth were neither recorded by Jesus nor his disciples and therefore a matter of pure faith by Christianity. The belief that the Jews lost the spirit of the law or that Jesus was reviled by the priests is pure conjecture and also a matter of faith and a great reason for Jew hating. (see Mel Gibson’s movie “Passion” for evidence of this blaming of all the Jews throughout times for an act of the Roman prelate who simply washed his hands to cleans his guilt

"Second, if the words were only "supposedly" written by the Creator, what weight does that hold? It might as well just be another book - unless the words are truly divinely inspired. But that's another thread altogether."

That statement is true as well. The belief that the Creator wrote the Old Testament was only witnessed by several hundred thousands who saw Moses go up to fire and smoke topped mountain and return with the words and documents as dictated by G-d. This fact also a matter of pure faith and a subject for another thread.
__________________
 
maybe I look it this in a radical way but I believe that once the egg and sperm join together AND start to grow, one cell-two cells four cells and so on there is LIFE! where there is growth there is life. would not the spirit present then?

Thanks jon_forward, I am glad to see that we agree on this too! I find it hard to believe that a spirit would enter a body later than this. Do you think it waits until the child is born to see whether or not a Mother will aboard the baby? The egg and sperm joining together and producing life is a miracle to begin with, that there would show me, if life is given to begin with, then a spirit is given with it.
 
Originally posted by ajwps
The taking of an unborn child (abortion) does not qualify as a taking of life or the removal of any civil liberties enjoyed by a forming baby that may or may not have a living soul within it.

I'm really trying to keep this on the partial birth abortion topic... however, I disagree that an abortion does not consititute taking life. It ends the baby's life.

Oh but Jesus did directly address homosexuality. Did Jesus not state that he had not come to change one iota or dot of the original Old Testament that he lived by his entire 31 years? Homosexuality was addressed in the Old Testament.

Topic for a different thread... I could write pages on this.

Josephus was a Jewish historian whose writings remain mostly intact today except for the inclusion of the few Jesus references inserted many years after Josephus' death. Josephus wrote the history of the day in ways that were not direct because he too would have been just another crucified Jew among the thousands upon thousands killed by the Romans in their way of execution.
Josephus wrote of the abortion methods being employed by the healers of his day some 2100 years ago. He wrote nothing about the religious implications of abortion as evidenced by the absence of its prohibition and which did not exist amongst the people of ancient Israel.

I'm familiar with who Josephus is, I've just never had a chance to read his works. As far as the Jesus texts being inserted after his death, I'd love to see the history of Josephus's text.
It sounds like you are a practicing Jew... is that correct? (if you don't mind me asking.)
However, I stand by my original point: I find it hard to believe that, in an age when many infants didn't survive their first years, and people had several children in the hopes that a few survived, that abortion would have been widespread.


First, Jesus was a religious Jew during his own lifetime. His special status as a savior and deity was written and revised many years and times after his crucifixion. Ergo Jesus activities and beliefs while walking the earth were neither recorded by Jesus nor his disciples and therefore a matter of pure faith by Christianity. The belief that the Jews lost the spirit of the law or that Jesus was reviled by the priests is pure conjecture and also a matter of faith and a great reason for Jew hating. (see Mel Gibson’s movie “Passion” for evidence of this blaming of all the Jews throughout times for an act of the Roman prelate who simply washed his hands to cleans his guilt.

"Second, if the words were only "supposedly" written by the Creator, what weight does that hold? It might as well just be another book - unless the words are truly divinely inspired. But that's another thread altogether."

That statement is true as well. The belief that the Creator wrote the Old Testament was only witnessed by several hundred thousands who saw Moses go up to fire and smoke topped mountain and return with the words and documents as dictated by G-d. This fact also a matter of pure faith and a subject for another thread.

Wow... definitely another 15-page thread in the making! :) But definitely not on the abortion topic.
 
Originally posted by gop_jeff

"I'm really trying to keep this on the partial birth abortion topic... however, I disagree that an abortion does not constitute taking life. It ends the baby's life."

Jeff you must decide when life (the soul) begins and what constitutes a 'life.' There are many things that have life but are not human beings. When a human being forms in its mother uterus, there are several facts of which you should be aware.

1) The fluid water in which the forming fetus (baby) forms is actually every mineral constituent by percentage which is nothing more than sea water.

2) The very early stages of human development in utero, the forming baby is not different in appearance from monkeys, mice, fish, elephants or most other animal forms of life.

3) In the early stages of development of each human embryo has gill slits (like fish) on each of us and a small tail (like mice) that eventually turns inward to become your sacrum bone.

All mammals including humans have beating hearts, movement with the formation of little limbs, facial expressions, brains and everything else humans are endowed with during development.

What makes humans different and better than our family of mammals? Answer: The ability to choose between good and evil.

The question remains that you have failed to answer. When is what we euphemistically call a soul placed into the human baby constituting what you seem to refer as 'life?'

"Topic for a different thread... I could write pages on this."

Great lets do just that later.


"I'm familiar with who Josephus is, I've just never had a chance to read his works. As far as the Jesus texts being inserted after his death, I'd love to see the history of Josephus's text.
It sounds like you are a practicing Jew... is that correct? (if you don't mind me asking.)

Yes I am

However, I stand by my original point: I find it hard to believe that, in an age when many infants didn't survive their first years, and people had several children in the hopes that a few survived, that abortion would have been widespread."

Abortion like prostitution has been widespread for eons of time. Even though infant mortality was high in the years before modern medicine, women have always had their own reasons to terminate their baby before birth.

The entire works of Josephus (Flavius) in English, remember he was a Jew who had to be careful not to get crucified, so he took on his Roman rulers appearance and name but left a remarkable history of the times around Jesus life.

http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/JOSEPHUS.HTM

The following site addresses the apparent insertions of Jesus into his historical writings. This also should be read.

http://www.carm.org/evidence/Josephus_Jesus.htm


"Wow... definitely another 15-page thread in the making! But definitely not on the abortion topic."

For sure.....
 
Originally posted by Jon_Forward

"maybe I look it this in a radical way but I believe that once the egg and sperm join together AND start to grow, one cell-two cells four cells and so on there is LIFE! where there is growth there is life. "

Is that what you believe? Is that what the Creator believes as well/

"would not the spirit present then?"

The same life and morphology appears with all animal forms. How did you personally come to the revelation that the spirit (soul) become present at that particular time?

It seems that the Bible says that G-d formed man (Adam) from the dust of the earth (like when we die we go back to dust) and THEN HE BREATHED THE SOUL INTO HIS NOSTRILS MAKING HIM A MAN.

But that is not my opinion but a reading of the original words in the Hebrew and Aramaic languages that Jesus himself spoke. Maybe G-d got it wrong and you know the answer???
 

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