Partial Birth Abortion Ban

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by 5stringJeff, Oct 2, 2003.

  1. janeeng
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    janeeng Guest

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    You can talk about the brain, but what about 3 weeks into conception and the heart is beating, to me, a heart beat is life!!! what should the brain matter??? sorry, as long as the little thing inside of you has a beating heart, it's life!!!!!!!

    As far as the Father is concerned, questioning a can of coke to being a father is silly!! DNA - all it take sis a blood test to determine who the Daddy is. And I have seen many cases where the Father didn't know about the baby and had asked why they weren't told, and that THEY had rights in knowing about it, and could have raised the child themselves, seldom, but it has been in some cases. Not to mention people wanting children that can't have them.
     
  2. ajwps
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    Originally posted by janeeng

    "You can talk about the brain, but what about 3 weeks into conception and the heart is beating, to me, a heart beat is life!!! what should the brain matter??? sorry, as long as the little thing inside of you has a beating heart, it's life!!!!!!!"

    A beating heart, a forming brain, a great toenail but what is the meaning of 'it's life?" A fetal puppy dog, a fish in roe eggs, a fetal elephant and a fetal human all have beating hearts and brain matter not to mention a growing virus has a form of life.

    What constitutes a life and what constitutes a human soul as differentiated from all other life forms on the earth? You are bordering on theology and your own opinion with a beating heart or brain matter.

    Have you ever heard of a dermoid cyst? This is a woman's ova that has not been fertilized but develops into a rather large mass of tissue that has incorporated into it, teeth, hair, thyroid tissue, heart tissue, brain tissue and many other bits and pieces of a human being. Is there a life or a soul somewhere in this abnormal growth on the uterus?


    "As far as the Father is concerned, questioning a can of coke to being a father is silly!!"

    It was meant to be a joke. Lighten up as it was an analogy.

    "DNA - all it take sis a blood test to determine who the Daddy is. And I have seen many cases where the Father didn't know about the baby and had asked why they weren't told, and that THEY had rights in knowing about it, and could have raised the child themselves, seldom, but it has been in some cases. Not to mention people wanting children that can't have them."

    Great argument for adoption of unwanted babies but the reality is that some women and men do not want to deliver a live baby that takes a breath just to give it up for adoption while others do. Each human being is ultimately responsible for their own actions (notwithstanding Jesus forgiving of sins on Sunday only to begin again on Monday) making the decision to abort or adopt a personal decision which is impossible to legislate by any court of man.

    Like prostitution, abortion has been here since recorded time and will be with us as long as humans inhabit the earth.
     
  3. 5stringJeff
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    5stringJeff Senior Member

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    First, while the Declaration is a very important paper, and while it is in many ways the foundation of our government, it technicaly has no legal standing - that is, one cannot appeal a law simply because it violates something in the DoI. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land.
    Secondly, while the government is there to allow for our life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, every law on the books is there to decrease those rights in return for internal security. For example, it made Gary Ridgeway (the Green River Killer) very happy to pick up prostitutes, kill them, and throw their bodies in the river. Obviously, it's against the law, even though it infringes on his right to pursue happiness.

    OK, let me clarify... Jesus, during His earthly ministry, did not address homosexuality. This is because people understood that is was wrong.

    How about the OT references like, "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you," (Jeremiah), or similiar references in the Psalms? It would seem that a human is known by God before most people today would call that person a "viable fetus."
    I have not read Josephus, but I have never heard of his references to abortion. I don't suppose you could summarize them? I find it hard to believe that, in an age when many infants didn't survive their first years, and people had several children in the hopes that a few survived, that abortion would have been widespread.

    Here's your exact quote:
    Religious rites aside, it was still a tragedy when a baby was bron stillborn.

    First, Jesus was the opposite of a religious Jew - in fact, he condemned the Jew's religiousness because in practicing the Law, they lost sight of the spirit of the Law. If Jesus had beena typical religious Jew, He would not have been so reviled by the priests of the day.
    Second, if the words were only "supposedly" written by the Creator, what weight does that hold? It might as well just be another book - unless the words are truly divinely inspired. But that's another thread altogether.
     
  4. janeeng
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    Do any of us truly know when the spirit is entered to the body??? I can't say I know, but I would think that once a fetus has formed a heart and brain, why wouldn't it be entered then?
     
  5. jon_forward
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    jon_forward Active Member

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    maybe I look it this in a radical way but I believe that once the egg and sperm join together AND start to grow, one cell-two cells four cells and so on there is LIFE! where there is growth there is life. would not the spirit present then?
     
  6. ajwps
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    Originally posted by gop_jeff

    "First, while the Declaration is a very important paper, and while it is in many ways the foundation of our government, it technicaly has no legal standing - that is, one cannot appeal a law simply because it violates something in the DoI. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land. Secondly, while the government is there to allow for our life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, every law on the books is there to decrease those rights in return for internal security. For example, it made Gary Ridgeway (the Green River Killer) very happy to pick up prostitutes, kill them, and throw their bodies in the river. Obviously, it's against the law, even though it infringes on his right to pursue happiness."

    Jeff do you know what the original functions of the US government were intended as defined by the founders?

    1) Protect America from foreign invaders
    2) Print money
    3) Settle disputes between states

    That was it.......

    The Amendments to the Constitution have radically changed those three functions that were designed to prevent the government from getting into American's lives, liberties and pursuit of happiness as laid down for the citizens of these United States.

    As for people like murderers having any rights under the Constitution, the fact that they took the civil liberties of others invalidates their own. English law and subsequently most western law was based on the premises laid down by the infamous Ten Commandments.

    The taking of an unborn child (abortion) does not qualify as a taking of life or the removal of any civil liberties enjoyed by a forming baby that may or may not have a living soul within it.

    The Commandment that prohibits the murder of a living soul is covered under the precepts of this Law. But the precept does not cover the taking of a non-life as described within the text of the Old Testament. [/b]

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    Jesus did speak on homosexuality as defined in his Father's Old Testament. If Jesus did deem abortion a sin then he would certainly have mentioned it. Jesus did not talk about gun control as there were no guns to control. But Jesus reiterated his Father's commandment to refrain from the murder of living soul bearing human beings. If Jesus had an opinion on abortion, he certainly did keep it to himself otherwise you would see the anti-abortionist (killers) scream from their voice boxes about it ad-nausem.
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    "OK, let me clarify... Jesus, during His earthly ministry, did not address homosexuality. This is because people understood that is was wrong."

    Oh but Jesus did directly address homosexuality. Did Jesus not state that he had not come to change one iota or dot of the original Old Testament that he lived by his entire 31 years? Homosexuality was addressed in the Old Testament.

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    Correct.... The Old Testament spoke against homosexuality but referenced the fact that a human being does not obtain the soul (as we understand it) until it took it's first breath and like with Adam throughout the eons of time. In the case of abortion, it was not illegal and was not carried on in back alleys or garages but was done by the healers of the day with herbs and medicaments that induced the aborting of the fetus. Abortion in the time of Jesus was open and there was no prohibition against it as referenced by the only historian of that time. His name was Josephus.
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    "How about the OT references like, "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you," (Jeremiah), or similiar references in the Psalms?"

    That’s easy. As I can read the original Hebrew text; the reference is that G-d knew you before He formed you in the womb and as the soul that was created and held by the Creator until the time that the baby took its first breath. There is no reference to the fact that the Creator knew you while your soul was within the forming baby.

    "It would seem that a human is known by God before most "people today would call that person a "viable fetus."

    True, very true...

    "I have not read Josephus, but I have never heard of his references to abortion. I don't suppose you could summarize them? I find it hard to believe that, in an age when many infants didn't survive their first years, and people had several children in the hopes that a few survived, that abortion would have been widespread."

    Josephus was a Jewish historian whose writings remain mostly intact today except for the inclusion of the few Jesus references inserted many years after Josephus' death. Josephus wrote the history of the day in ways that were not direct because he too would have been just another crucified Jew among the thousands upon thousands killed by the Romans in their way of execution.

    Josephus wrote of the abortion methods being employed by the healers of his day some 2100 years ago. He wrote nothing about the religious implications of abortion as evidenced by the absence of its prohibition and which did not exist amongst the people of ancient Israel.


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    Firstly I did not say that Jesus 'could not' prohibit abortion, I said he did not prohibit abortion. Secondly how is that you are aware of the morays and understandings of the people of Jesus time in Israel concerning abortions? For the historian Josephus didn't even find it important enough to mention that there was concern about the removal of a non-living baby with no soul growing in it's mother's womb of that time. As a matter of fact, the Old Testament gives significant evidence that a baby that never had taken a breath (i.e., still born or aborted) need not have the usual burial rights but if the baby died after its first breath it deserved the full burial rites and prayers of a living human being.
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    "Here's your exact quote:"

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    If Jesus could not prohibit abortion, how is it that his church seems to know more than Jesus himself?
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    Thank you for correcting my error in using the word could instead of did not which was my original thought.

    "Religious rites aside, it was still a tragedy when a baby was bron stillborn."

    Yes it is always a tragedy for the relatives of a stillborn who usually wish for potential progeny to carry on their lineage.

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    The religious Jews (and Jesus was a religious Jew) continue this Torah (Old Testament) edict to this very day.
    All man has to go on is the words that were supposedly written by the Creator and not everyone imposing their personal opinions on others.
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    "First, Jesus was the opposite of a religious Jew - in fact, he condemned the Jew's religiousness because in practicing the Law, they lost sight of the spirit of the Law. If Jesus had beena typical religious Jew, He would not have been so reviled by the priests of the day."

    First, Jesus was a religious Jew during his own lifetime. His special status as a savior and deity was written and revised many years and times after his crucifixion. Ergo Jesus activities and beliefs while walking the earth were neither recorded by Jesus nor his disciples and therefore a matter of pure faith by Christianity. The belief that the Jews lost the spirit of the law or that Jesus was reviled by the priests is pure conjecture and also a matter of faith and a great reason for Jew hating. (see Mel Gibson’s movie “Passion” for evidence of this blaming of all the Jews throughout times for an act of the Roman prelate who simply washed his hands to cleans his guilt

    "Second, if the words were only "supposedly" written by the Creator, what weight does that hold? It might as well just be another book - unless the words are truly divinely inspired. But that's another thread altogether."

    That statement is true as well. The belief that the Creator wrote the Old Testament was only witnessed by several hundred thousands who saw Moses go up to fire and smoke topped mountain and return with the words and documents as dictated by G-d. This fact also a matter of pure faith and a subject for another thread.
    __________________
     
  7. janeeng
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    janeeng Guest

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    Thanks jon_forward, I am glad to see that we agree on this too! I find it hard to believe that a spirit would enter a body later than this. Do you think it waits until the child is born to see whether or not a Mother will aboard the baby? The egg and sperm joining together and producing life is a miracle to begin with, that there would show me, if life is given to begin with, then a spirit is given with it.
     
  8. 5stringJeff
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    5stringJeff Senior Member

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    I'm really trying to keep this on the partial birth abortion topic... however, I disagree that an abortion does not consititute taking life. It ends the baby's life.

    Topic for a different thread... I could write pages on this.

    I'm familiar with who Josephus is, I've just never had a chance to read his works. As far as the Jesus texts being inserted after his death, I'd love to see the history of Josephus's text.
    It sounds like you are a practicing Jew... is that correct? (if you don't mind me asking.)
    However, I stand by my original point: I find it hard to believe that, in an age when many infants didn't survive their first years, and people had several children in the hopes that a few survived, that abortion would have been widespread.


    Wow... definitely another 15-page thread in the making! :) But definitely not on the abortion topic.
     
  9. ajwps
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    Originally posted by gop_jeff

    "I'm really trying to keep this on the partial birth abortion topic... however, I disagree that an abortion does not constitute taking life. It ends the baby's life."

    Jeff you must decide when life (the soul) begins and what constitutes a 'life.' There are many things that have life but are not human beings. When a human being forms in its mother uterus, there are several facts of which you should be aware.

    1) The fluid water in which the forming fetus (baby) forms is actually every mineral constituent by percentage which is nothing more than sea water.

    2) The very early stages of human development in utero, the forming baby is not different in appearance from monkeys, mice, fish, elephants or most other animal forms of life.

    3) In the early stages of development of each human embryo has gill slits (like fish) on each of us and a small tail (like mice) that eventually turns inward to become your sacrum bone.

    All mammals including humans have beating hearts, movement with the formation of little limbs, facial expressions, brains and everything else humans are endowed with during development.

    What makes humans different and better than our family of mammals? Answer: The ability to choose between good and evil.

    The question remains that you have failed to answer. When is what we euphemistically call a soul placed into the human baby constituting what you seem to refer as 'life?'

    "Topic for a different thread... I could write pages on this."

    Great lets do just that later.


    "I'm familiar with who Josephus is, I've just never had a chance to read his works. As far as the Jesus texts being inserted after his death, I'd love to see the history of Josephus's text.
    It sounds like you are a practicing Jew... is that correct? (if you don't mind me asking.)

    Yes I am

    However, I stand by my original point: I find it hard to believe that, in an age when many infants didn't survive their first years, and people had several children in the hopes that a few survived, that abortion would have been widespread."

    Abortion like prostitution has been widespread for eons of time. Even though infant mortality was high in the years before modern medicine, women have always had their own reasons to terminate their baby before birth.

    The entire works of Josephus (Flavius) in English, remember he was a Jew who had to be careful not to get crucified, so he took on his Roman rulers appearance and name but left a remarkable history of the times around Jesus life.

    http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/JOSEPHUS.HTM

    The following site addresses the apparent insertions of Jesus into his historical writings. This also should be read.

    http://www.carm.org/evidence/Josephus_Jesus.htm


    "Wow... definitely another 15-page thread in the making! But definitely not on the abortion topic."

    For sure.....
     
  10. ajwps
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    ajwps Active Member

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    Originally posted by Jon_Forward

    "maybe I look it this in a radical way but I believe that once the egg and sperm join together AND start to grow, one cell-two cells four cells and so on there is LIFE! where there is growth there is life. "

    Is that what you believe? Is that what the Creator believes as well/

    "would not the spirit present then?"

    The same life and morphology appears with all animal forms. How did you personally come to the revelation that the spirit (soul) become present at that particular time?

    It seems that the Bible says that G-d formed man (Adam) from the dust of the earth (like when we die we go back to dust) and THEN HE BREATHED THE SOUL INTO HIS NOSTRILS MAKING HIM A MAN.

    But that is not my opinion but a reading of the original words in the Hebrew and Aramaic languages that Jesus himself spoke. Maybe G-d got it wrong and you know the answer???
     

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