Paradoxical Earth.. Complex responses often misinterpreted...

I think he believes that only so called greenhouse gasses radiate energy.
That is a total lie. I have said time and again hot bodies radiate EM energy freely. It doesn't matter what it is.
 
That is only an observation that we don't know enough about the way energy moves through the system.
"We" is just you. I'm only referring to what can impede LW IR, as traverses from earth to outer space.

CO2 doesnt impeded IR..it absorbs and emits in a frav=ction of a nanosecond...if it doesn't lose the energy via collision first.
 
CO2 doesnt impeded IR..it absorbs and emits in a frav=ction of a nanosecond...if it doesn't lose the energy via collision first.
You got it totally backwards!!!

Molecules in a gas have average speeds of around 500 meters per second, and around 0.2 nanoSec between collisions. This is at room temperature and pressure. The average relaxation time that a CO2 molecule can hold the vibration state is much longer: 13 microsec. A random molecule is 26000 times more likely to hit the vibrating GHG molecule before it has a chance to emit a photon. That random molecule gains energy from the vibration and turns into heat.

My gosh you and billy have a tiresome lack of knowledge of physics, and yet you both continue to spout effluvium from your rectal sphincters. (metaphorically)
 
CO2 doesnt impeded IR..it absorbs and emits in a frav=ction of a nanosecond...if it doesn't lose the energy via collision first.
You got it totally backwards!!!

Molecules in a gas have average speeds of around 500 meters per second, and around 0.2 nanoSec between collisions. This is at room temperature and pressure. The average relaxation time that a CO2 molecule can hold the vibration state is much longer: 13 microsec. A random molecule is 26000 times more likely to hit the vibrating GHG molecule before it has a chance to emit a photon. That random molecule gains energy from the vibration and turns into heat.

My gosh you and billy have a tiresome lack of knowledge of physics, and yet you both continue to spout effluvium from your rectal sphincters. (metaphorically)
Where are you getting this crap?

Energy residency is 0.03ns. It is incapable of warming itself.. Empirically observed experiment proves that it can not warm itself... Only collision with a warmer molecule will warm it..
 
"CO2 is in fact linear, therefore has no dipole moment and hence, not much of a vibrational spectrum. And even for molecules that are polar and couple to an EM field via rotation, excitation of pure rotational modes is typically in the microwave range. In the IR range, the role of the rotational spectrum is that it modifies the vibrational spectrum (adds a fine structure with an additional selection rule to purely vibrational excitations). "



Reference What happens when a co2 molecule absorbs an infra red photon?


In other words, The CO2 molecule can not vibrate and warm.
 
"As a linear molecule, CO2 has 3N-5 = 3(3)-5 = 4 normal vibrational modes. One of these modes is a symmetric stretch, which has a net zero dipole moment at all times; therefore, the symmetric stretch cannot interact with the IR photon, as there is no means to connect the initial vibrational state to the final vibrational state. The symmetric stretch is IR-inactive."

Reference What happens when a co2 molecule absorbs an infra red photon?

In other words, all the molecule can do is pass IR... It is incapable of warming without collision in the other three modes of vibration.
 
Energy residency is 0.03ns. It is incapable of warming itself.. Empirically observed experiment proves that it can not warm itself... Only collision with a warmer molecule will warm it..
Residency of what and under what conditions. Give a link.
"CO2 is in fact linear, therefore has no dipole moment and hence, not much of a vibrational spectrum. And even for molecules that are polar and couple to an EM field via rotation, excitation of pure rotational modes is typically in the microwave range. In the IR range, the role of the rotational spectrum is that it modifies the vibrational spectrum (adds a fine structure with an additional selection rule to purely vibrational excitations). "
"As a linear molecule, CO2 has 3N-5 = 3(3)-5 = 4 normal vibrational modes. One of these modes is a symmetric stretch, which has a net zero dipole moment at all times; therefore, the symmetric stretch cannot interact with the IR photon, as there is no means to connect the initial vibrational state to the final vibrational state. The symmetric stretch is IR-inactive."

Reference What happens when a co2 molecule absorbs an infra red photon?

In other words, all the molecule can do is pass IR... It is incapable of warming without collision in the other three modes of vibration.

You quoted that out of context. In that same forum you quoted, only the inactive vibration mode:
As a linear molecule, CO2 has 3N-5 = 3(3)-5 = 4 normal vibrational modes. One of these modes is a symmetric stretch, which has a net zero dipole moment at all times; therefore, the symmetric stretch cannot interact with the IR photon, as there is no means to connect the initial vibrational state to the final vibrational state. The symmetric stretch is IR-inactive. In contrast, an asymmetric stretch involves a change in permanent dipole moment; therefore it is IR-active. Similarly, the two bending modes involve changes in the permanent dipole moments and are both IR-active.

You left out what I bold faced!! Is that the only way you can make your point? By lying? You are being totally dishonest.

Rather than quoting opinions from a forum you should quote the actual experiments.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...laxation_of_CO2_in_CO2-N2_and_CO2-O2_mixtures
Vibrational relaxation in CO2-N2 and CO2-O2 mixtures is studied via the optic-acoustic effect.
For CO2-N2 a relaxation time of 12.8 ± 1.5 μs
for CO2-O2 8.8 ± 0.3 μs atm.

Measurement of vibrational relaxation times by the spectrophone. Application to CH4, CO2, N2O, COS, NH3 and HCN - Transactions of the Faraday Society (RSC Publishing)
The following times, expressed as relaxation times at 1 atm pressure, were required for vibrational energy excited in the modes indicated to transfer to translational energy:
... CO2, at 4.3 µ, 7.0±0.5 µsec..

Here is the mean time between collisions in air:
http://physics.bu.edu/~redner/211-sp06/class-macro-micro/kinetic_meanfreepath.html
Determine the typical collision time by:
τ = λ/v ≈ 10^-10 sec. That is in the range of 0.01 nSec.

That means collisions with excited CO2 is thousands of times more probable, or that CO2 can absorb photons from the earth and transfer it randomly to the other molecules in the atmosphere.

That is from physics observation and experiments. You remain a bald faced liar.
 
Energy residency is 0.03ns. It is incapable of warming itself.. Empirically observed experiment proves that it can not warm itself... Only collision with a warmer molecule will warm it..
Residency of what and under what conditions. Give a link.
"CO2 is in fact linear, therefore has no dipole moment and hence, not much of a vibrational spectrum. And even for molecules that are polar and couple to an EM field via rotation, excitation of pure rotational modes is typically in the microwave range. In the IR range, the role of the rotational spectrum is that it modifies the vibrational spectrum (adds a fine structure with an additional selection rule to purely vibrational excitations). "
"As a linear molecule, CO2 has 3N-5 = 3(3)-5 = 4 normal vibrational modes. One of these modes is a symmetric stretch, which has a net zero dipole moment at all times; therefore, the symmetric stretch cannot interact with the IR photon, as there is no means to connect the initial vibrational state to the final vibrational state. The symmetric stretch is IR-inactive."

Reference What happens when a co2 molecule absorbs an infra red photon?

In other words, all the molecule can do is pass IR... It is incapable of warming without collision in the other three modes of vibration.

You quoted that out of context. In that same forum you quoted, only the inactive vibration mode:
As a linear molecule, CO2 has 3N-5 = 3(3)-5 = 4 normal vibrational modes. One of these modes is a symmetric stretch, which has a net zero dipole moment at all times; therefore, the symmetric stretch cannot interact with the IR photon, as there is no means to connect the initial vibrational state to the final vibrational state. The symmetric stretch is IR-inactive. In contrast, an asymmetric stretch involves a change in permanent dipole moment; therefore it is IR-active. Similarly, the two bending modes involve changes in the permanent dipole moments and are both IR-active.

You left out what I bold faced!! Is that the only way you can make your point? By lying? You are being totally dishonest.

Rather than quoting opinions from a forum you should quote the actual experiments.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...laxation_of_CO2_in_CO2-N2_and_CO2-O2_mixtures
Vibrational relaxation in CO2-N2 and CO2-O2 mixtures is studied via the optic-acoustic effect.
For CO2-N2 a relaxation time of 12.8 ± 1.5 μs
for CO2-O2 8.8 ± 0.3 μs atm.

Measurement of vibrational relaxation times by the spectrophone. Application to CH4, CO2, N2O, COS, NH3 and HCN - Transactions of the Faraday Society (RSC Publishing)
The following times, expressed as relaxation times at 1 atm pressure, were required for vibrational energy excited in the modes indicated to transfer to translational energy:
... CO2, at 4.3 µ, 7.0±0.5 µsec..

Here is the mean time between collisions in air:
http://physics.bu.edu/~redner/211-sp06/class-macro-micro/kinetic_meanfreepath.html
Determine the typical collision time by:
τ = λ/v ≈ 10^-10 sec. That is in the range of 0.01 nSec.

That means collisions with excited CO2 is thousands of times more probable, or that CO2 can absorb photons from the earth and transfer it randomly to the other molecules in the atmosphere.

That is from physics observation and experiments. You remain a bald faced liar.
You are obviously a science denier.. Funny how, when you are shown facts about how a molecular structure reacts you deny it because you do not understand it. This is exactly why I choose not to discuss these intricacies with people like you.

Tell me again where the tropospheric hot spot is again, empirically observed and verified proving your hypothesis... I must have missed when you posted it.

CO2 requires collision to warm. CO2 does not stretch and therefore will not warm itself. The majority of gases in our atmosphere are opaque to LWIR and the amount of CO2 is so small that it will most likely not react with another CO2 molecule. Again you fail to see the whole picture and you fail to understand how the energy is transmitted and what is receiving it.
 
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You are obviously a science denier.. Funny how, when you are shown facts about how a molecular structure reacts you deny it because you do not understand it. This is exactly why I choose not to discuss these intricacies with people like you.

Cut the crap troll. I get it. You don't have a response that directly addresses the issues. You posted out-of-context science chat from a different forum, but are too afraid to address the observed, measured empirical data that denies your post #85-87.

Just face it. GHG's can cause the air to gain some of the 396 W/m^2 energy emanating from the earth surface, and you guys have no science do disprove it.
 
Paradoxical Earth.. Complex responses often misinterpreted.

As I watch many claim global warming for the current weather events, it appears it is time for some sanity and a reality check. The earth has always been a paradoxical presentation and its high time people were taught that what they see is in far to short a time span for any realistic determination to be made about what our climate is doing.

When the sun is active the flows from the sun, like wind, push against our atmosphere. As the earth rotates this pressure pushes atmosphere to the poles increasing the mass of the atmosphere above them. The NASA photo below shows how solar wind pushes against the magnetosphere and against our atmosphere.

View attachment 172129

When the wind reduces so do the pressures against our atmosphere. If you spin a partially filled balloon and apply a wind pressure against it the center will flatten and the ends round. This is what happens to earths atmosphere.

When there is high pressures against our atmosphere from the sun the depth of atmosphere above the equator decreases and above the poles increase.

View attachment 172131

This allows the polar jet to reside high in latitudes and warming of the equator will push towards the polls keeping the polar jet tightly constrained to the poles. This is a warming globe.

With cooling and low solar influence things are very different. With low pressures (as we have today) against the magnetosphere and atmosphere, the mass of the atmosphere is flung out due to earths rotation, allowing the atmosphere near the poles to be drawn to the equator.

View attachment 172132

The draw down of atmosphere causes the polar Cells to thin and widen pulling the polar jet to mid latitudes. This results in a paradoxical warming of the arctic regions and massive cooling of the mid latitudes. The thin atmosphere mass above the poles allows heat escape to accelerate.

What we see today is a natural and normal presentation of the earth entering a cooling phase. With Solar influence now slated to be very low for the next 30-60 years our cooling is just beginning.

As we near the new thermal equilibrium of the earths new energy input/output levels, the zones will return to what we have seen as normal over recent years. When that happens, the poles will freeze over rapidly and glaciation will resume. Many Northern Hemisphere glaciers have already begun to increase in size. The ice mass on Greenland has tripled in just three years.

This is just the beginning..

Non-linear dynamic systems are unpredictable..by definition. The natural component is unpredictable, by definition.

Nonlinear Dynamics and Chaos | With Applications to Physics, Biology, Chemistry, and Engineering


" Our work in the previous three chapters has revealed quite a bit about chaotic systems, but something important is missing: intuition. We know what happens but not why it happens. For instance, we don’t know what causes sensitive dependence on initial conditions, nor how a differential equation can generate a fractal attractor. Our first goal is to understand such things in a simple, geometric way."
 
CO2 requires collision to warm. CO2 does not stretch and therefore will not warm itself. The majority of gases in our atmosphere are opaque to LWIR and the amount of CO2 is so small that it will most likely not react with another CO2 molecule. Again you fail to see the whole picture and you fail to understand how the energy is transmitted and what is receiving it.

You missed the boat again.

First: CO2 actually does "stretch" in a longitudinal mode. It simply isn't a mode that can absorb LW IR. The transverse vibration modes are the ones that absorb LW IR or thermal photons from the earth. Look it up.

Second: the majority of gases in the atmosphere are transparent, not opaque to LW IR. Look it up.

Third: CO2 reacting with another CO2 has no bearing on the dynamics of the atmosphere.
 
CO2 requires collision to warm. CO2 does not stretch and therefore will not warm itself. The majority of gases in our atmosphere are opaque to LWIR and the amount of CO2 is so small that it will most likely not react with another CO2 molecule. Again you fail to see the whole picture and you fail to understand how the energy is transmitted and what is receiving it.

You missed the boat again.

First: CO2 actually does "stretch" in a longitudinal mode. It simply isn't a mode that can absorb LW IR. The transverse vibration modes are the ones that absorb LW IR or thermal photons from the earth. Look it up.

Second: the majority of gases in the atmosphere are transparent, not opaque to LW IR. Look it up.

Third: CO2 reacting with another CO2 has no bearing on the dynamics of the atmosphere.
Tell me again where your empirically observed hot spot is again...

No matter how many times you delude yourself the empirical evidence outs your position as one that is falsified.
 
First: CO2 actually does "stretch" in a longitudinal mode. It simply isn't a mode that can absorb LW IR. The transverse vibration modes are the ones that absorb LW IR or thermal photons from the earth. Look it up.
LOL

Try again: There are only 4 vibration modes in a CO2 molecule. The one that can cause warming within the molecule is "IR-inactive". The other three are kinetic in nature and can only warm with collision. This was verified by empirical experiment just last year in the Boulder Colorado's AP lab. Where earths atmospheric mixture, minus water vapor, was placed in a 30' tube and narrow band LWIR was introduced. No warming was seen in the tube until water vapor reached 46% (humidity). The earths average is 38% with many regions (like the poles) which are <10%.

Without water vapor our atmosphere is opaque to LWIR.

Again where is your 'Hot Spot'... I'll wait..
 
GHG's can cause the air to gain some of the 396 W/m^2 energy emanating from the earth surface, and you guys have no science do disprove it.
The Trenbreth miscalculations and doubling of energy within the earths atmosphere is a fraud. There is only 396W/m^2 going out bound and less than 33W/m^2 is reflected or redirected towards earth. That is where Trenbreth failed in his calculations saying it is roughly 139w/m^2. Trenbreth inserted over 90W/m^2 into our atmosphere that does not belong.

There is no missing heat which is also why there is no hot spot.
 
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The one that can cause warming within the molecule is "IR-inactive".
That's wrong.
The other three are kinetic in nature and can only warm with collision.
That's wrong.
Without water vapor our atmosphere is opaque to LWIR.
That's wrong.
Again where is your 'Hot Spot'... I'll wait..
The "hot spot" has to do with models involving water vapor and latent heat, etc. That is certainly a hot topic in the understanding of modeling complexities of the atmosphere, but state changes of water vapor is not related to the more basic physics of LWIR exciting the transverse modes of CO2 etc. It is premature to introduce more complex topics when you deny the simpler topic of accepted radiation physics. As I said before, I have not read any of the IPCC documents to know details of the controversy.

.
 
The Trenbreth miscalculations and doubling of energy within the earths atmosphere is a fraud. There is only 396W/m^2 going out bound and less than 33W/m^2 is reflected or redirected towards earth. That is where Trenbreth failed in his calculations saying it is roughly 139w/m^2. Trenbreth inserted over 90W/m^2 into our atmosphere that does not belong.

There is no missing heat which is also why there is no hot spot.
I really don't care what Trenberth thinks. Since you deny the properties of radiation physics, I really don't care what you think anymore either.
 
CO2 doesnt impeded IR..it absorbs and emits in a frav=ction of a nanosecond...if it doesn't lose the energy via collision first.
You got it totally backwards!!!

Molecules in a gas have average speeds of around 500 meters per second, and around 0.2 nanoSec between collisions. This is at room temperature and pressure. The average relaxation time that a CO2 molecule can hold the vibration state is much longer: 13 microsec. A random molecule is 26000 times more likely to hit the vibrating GHG molecule before it has a chance to emit a photon. That random molecule gains energy from the vibration and turns into heat.

My gosh you and billy have a tiresome lack of knowledge of physics, and yet you both continue to spout effluvium from your rectal sphincters. (metaphorically)
Where are you getting this crap?

Energy residency is 0.03ns. It is incapable of warming itself.. Empirically observed experiment proves that it can not warm itself... Only collision with a warmer molecule will warm it..
He just makes it up as he goes.
 
The Trenbreth miscalculations and doubling of energy within the earths atmosphere is a fraud. There is only 396W/m^2 going out bound and less than 33W/m^2 is reflected or redirected towards earth. That is where Trenbreth failed in his calculations saying it is roughly 139w/m^2. Trenbreth inserted over 90W/m^2 into our atmosphere that does not belong.

There is no missing heat which is also why there is no hot spot.
I really don't care what Trenberth thinks. Since you deny the properties of radiation physics, I really don't care what you think anymore either.

You accept the same flawed physics that result in the models being so wrong,,,the same physics trenberth applies.

Once again...in real science, what happens to hypotheses that experience even one predictive failure?
 

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