"Palestinian" PM Making It Crystal Clear

[Gurdari]

As I alluded to earlier, there were a lot of terrible things that the US did during WW2 in response to terrible things that the enemy did to us. Specifically, the atom bombs dropped on Japan, were to terrorize and shock Japanese people and emperor. In reality they saved a lot of lives on both sides. After that, conventions of war were changed.

Whoa, explain how it saved lives... Japan was close to defeat and really, those were massive civillian casualties with the most destructive weapon ever at the time... are you telling me that dropping smaller bombs on military targets would've escalated things?

To answer your question directly, blowing up a home of suspected insurgents does not equal the same. The people who are in there are involved and therefore fair game, or if not, should know not to be there.

The people who are there? The people who live in their town you mean? What the hell are they doing? Staying inside their homes while we drop bombs! Fools! Are you involved with everything in your town? If there are criminals in your city, you deserve to be killed? WTF?

 

[Gurdari]

this question? it is stupid. where in your "suspected "scenario are the "suspects" in the house firing at us?

If they are shooting at us, they pretty much remove suspicion don't they? when have I ever suggested that hot pursuit was not appropriate?

I'll concede this point: If people inside a house are shooting at your bomber from their bedroom window... maybe you know they are hostile.

 

[glockmail]

Whoa, explain how it saved lives... Japan was close to defeat and really, those were massive civillian casualties with the most destructive weapon ever at the time... are you telling me that dropping smaller bombs on military targets would've escalated things?



The people who are there? The people who live in their town you mean? What the hell are they doing? Staying inside their homes while we drop bombs! Fools! Are you involved with everything in your town? If there are criminals in your city, you deserve to be killed? WTF?

Japan my have been close to defeat, but as you recall in every battle the vast majority of troops would fight until death. This was a fervent “insect mentality” that was beyond rationale. Their civilians were taught the same attitude. If we had to invade their capital with conventional means, it would have caused several hundred of our guys and perhaps several millions of theirs.

It was well publicized that certain areas of Baghdad were going to be bombed, and anyone fool enough not to believe that would be in great danger.

 

[Annie]

Whoa, explain how it saved lives... Japan was close to defeat and really, those were massive civillian casualties with the most destructive weapon ever at the time... are you telling me that dropping smaller bombs on military targets would've escalated things?



The people who are there? The people who live in their town you mean? What the hell are they doing? Staying inside their homes while we drop bombs! Fools! Are you involved with everything in your town? If there are criminals in your city, you deserve to be killed? WTF?

I'd respond that it came from your post earlier on 'occupation.' The Japanese, while the aggressor against the US, as far as the war went, had convinced both the military and civilian population to fight to the death, for the US would rape, kill, etc.

There was no choice but excessive/decisive force or the loss of a great number of American lives. The choice was made. Warning, bomb. No surrender, another devestating bomb, surrender.

Since that time, the US has not used 'decisive/excessive' force. We are in the quagmires of our own making. Have been how many times now? BTW, I am NOT advocating the use of any nuclear weapon.

 

[glockmail]

....
Since that time, the US has not used 'decisive/excessive' force. We are in the quagmires of our own making. Have been how many times now? BTW, I am NOT advocating the use of any nuclear weapon.

We don't need to. We also used magnesium boms during WW2 with devastating effect.

Thanks for reminding us about the warning. Today's terrorists don't give any such warnings, unless you consider the blanket threats from some cave that have become routine.

 

[Annie]

We don't need to. We also used magnesium boms during WW2 with devastating effect.

Thanks for reminding us about the warning. Today's terrorists don't give any such warnings, unless you consider the blanket threats from some cave that have become routine.

That's my job.

 

[Gurdari]

Japan my have been close to defeat, but as you recall in every battle the vast majority of troops would fight until death. This was a fervent “insect mentality” that was beyond rationale. Their civilians were taught the same attitude. If we had to invade their capital with conventional means, it would have caused several hundred of our guys and perhaps several millions of theirs.

It was well publicized that certain areas of Baghdad were going to be bombed, and anyone fool enough not to believe that would be in great danger.

'We warned you to leave the city' is no excuse. Even if that was a realistic option for 100,000 familes it still reeks. Most terrorism committed AGAINST the western powers was a reaction to terorism committed BY western powers. WHat would you do if you were warned to get out of your city? Flood the streets with the rest of the thousands of people, and die anyways?

We may not agree on WW2, and I thought it was more about flexing muscle to show other nations the US was a serious player, than just winning over Japan...

 

[Gurdari]

I'd respond that it came from your post earlier on 'occupation.' The Japanese, while the aggressor against the US, as far as the war went, had convinced both the military and civilian population to fight to the death, for the US would rape, kill, etc.

There was no choice but excessive/decisive force or the loss of a great number of American lives. The choice was made. Warning, bomb. No surrender, another devestating bomb, surrender.

Since that time, the US has not used 'decisive/excessive' force. We are in the quagmires of our own making. Have been how many times now? BTW, I am NOT advocating the use of any nuclear weapon.

So which was it? If the Japanese would never surrender, why did they?

Since that time the US has not done what,exactly? Excessive/decisive force? What about Shock and awe, wasn't that by definition excessive (shocking) and decisive? How many cluster bombs were used? How much white phosphorous (show Saddam how to really use Chem weapons!)? Ar eyou sure the US army did not deploy and tactical nukes? Smaller bunker busting bombs?

 

[Annie]

So which was it? If the Japanese would never surrender, why did they?

Since that time the US has not done what,exactly? Excessive/decisive force? What about Shock and awe, wasn't that by definition excessive (shocking) and decisive? How many cluster bombs were used? How much white phosphorous (show Saddam how to really use Chem weapons!)? Ar eyou sure the US army did not deploy and tactical nukes? Smaller bunker busting bombs?

By definition the casualties in Iraq show "Shock & Awe" was not excessive, quite the contrary.

As for the rest, silly.

 

[90K]

Oh and for clarification on the use of Cluster Bombs: they weren't used in specific targets, they are used against troops or armored targets like tanks and personnel carriers.
And the use of Willy Peter? that isn't used much anymore except in creating light for target detection and varification.

 

[Gurdari]

By definition the casualties in Iraq show "Shock & Awe" was not excessive, quite the contrary.

As for the rest, silly.

Nice of you to decide what amount of deaths are 'excessive' but isn't tens of thousands just that?

And come one, 'silly' is hardly a rebuttal...

 

[Gurdari]

Oh and for clarification on the use of Cluster Bombs: they weren't used in specific targets, they are used against troops or armored targets like tanks and personnel carriers.
And the use of Willy Peter? that isn't used much anymore except in creating light for target detection and varification.

The armered personnel carriers of the insurgents?

White phosphorous burns the shit out of skin, look at the youngest insurgents - like the ones who would otherwise be in kindergarten if their country wasn't smashed.

 

[90K]

The armered personnel carriers of the insurgents?

White phosphorous burns the shit out of skin, look at the youngest insurgents - like the ones who would otherwise be in kindergarten if their country wasn't smashed.

Willy Peter. Well it burns through you it doesn't need air to burn.
What you need is a real live tour of a explosive plant an learn the true facts of percise bombing and the collateral damage.
I won't lie I know some targets got messed up that weren't actual targets. Those are rare situations but unless you actually followed the US on every bombing run I can't say you are the expert. I can say and have proof that huge crater where Saddam was supposed to be and wasn't. At my work we were already scaling back to 500 pound bombs to limit the collateral damage and we used those bombs and it did as advertised. War isn't fun the US told the people of Iraq they do ther best to target known sights of the government. Iraq was also targeting it's own neighborhoods so it isn't all our nations fault.

 

[Gurdari]

I could use a tour, in fact a lesson on how it's all made and deployed would be good too. IS this mean you are a munitions maker, or whatever it's called?

I also think a tour of a refugee camp that's been hit with those same munitions (even if Israel did it, not US) would be good too. More info always helps, and more perspective always helps. Thanks for more perspective, regardless of the debates outcome.

 

[glockmail]

'We warned you to leave the city' is no excuse. Even if that was a realistic option for 100,000 familes it still reeks. Most terrorism committed AGAINST the western powers was a reaction to terorism committed BY western powers. WHat would you do if you were warned to get out of your city? Flood the streets with the rest of the thousands of people, and die anyways?

We may not agree on WW2, and I thought it was more about flexing muscle to show other nations the US was a serious player, than just winning over Japan...

Our warnings saved lives. If I had lived there, I would have got my ass out of Dodge.

 

[Gurdari]

Our warnings saved lives. If I had lived there, I would have got my ass out of Dodge.

I see, you saved lives... we saved lives by warning that we were about to take lives. Which we did. Maybe more lives would be saved if you stayed home.

Get outta Dodge..?

Really? Move your entire family out of a war zone on roads that are destroyed and under constant fire with no vehicle. Sure, shouldn't take more than an hour.
Remember the Lebanese families and the Israeli leaflets? Try hailing a cab in rush hour, then try hailing a cab in Lebanon when fighterjetss are blowing the place to hell and everyone is in a panic. I know YOU could, but many families aren't as resourceful.