Palestine NEVER EXISTED!

[teddyearp]

 

[teddyearp]

Not very scholarly or bright.

Postcards from the 20's. The Agricultural School for Girls is a trophy mark of civilization for the 1920's in Tel Aviv.

From Stanford Univ Collections. I used to be there a lot..

LOL. Does not change the fact that:

 

[teddyearp]

Wow! How touching! Reminds me of...

 

[teddyearp]

Islam and Europe Timeline (355-1291 A.D.)

First, I want to welcome you to the fray here. Keep up the good work as you seem to post in a very intelligent manner without the need to post silly memes over and over and over and over again like Louie whose name I will not mention.

Second from your link:

624: Muhammad broke with his Jewish supporters because they refused to recognize him as a prophet and adopt Isalm. He chose now to emphasize the Arabness of the new religion and has his followers face Mecca when praying instead of Jerusalem. In the end, all the Jews were either banished or executed.

This makes my point for why the Muslim Arabs actually do not want the Jews to have their own country. Yes. After almost one thousand four hundred years, the followers of Mohammad still can not let it go.

 

[Challenger]

The fact is that military campaigns do move in new populations.

You'd be surprised. Unless those campaigns are part of a deliberate policy of colonisation, or mass migration most military campaigns of conquest merely superimpose a thin veneer of "new" ruling elites onto an indigenous population, who may or may not over time assimilate with the culture of their conquerors.

The assertion that Palestinians are "indigenous" and descendants of the ancient Canaanites (who were wiped out) is BS.

Who wiped out the Canaanites? There's no real archaeological evidence of any mass extinctions in the region.

Many Palestinians have lost their jobs because of BDS. On the other hand, The Israeli economy is growing. Useless boycott.

Irrelevant to this topic.

My mom's family were denied entry into the U.S. after WW2. If not for Israel, the only Jewish country which is a dot on the world map, where else could they have gone to?

Yes, probably thanks to Zionist pressure on Truman coupled with widespread American anti-semitism. This was always the Zionist plan to get as many fit and healthy displaced persons into Palestine after the war, it's lucky your parents were fit and healthy, many elderly or unfit Jewish people were ignored by, or refused aid from, the Zionists. As for where else could they have gone to, they could have returned to their various original native countries in Europe, there were no bans on Jewish French living in France, Belgians living in Belgium, etc. The UK took in many DPs after the war and apart from Palestine, they could have settled anywhere within the then British empire, Spain and Portugal accepted Jewish refugees as did many South American countries. the Zionist mantra that tey had nowhere else to go is a myth, as I've said before Zionists lie, period.

 

[Challenger]

Palestinians' at that time also included all of the Jews.

No. only those Jewish people who were allowed to settle in Palestine and who took Palestinian citizenship, there was no automatic "right of return" law in force at the time.

 

[Challenger]

"Zionism is a TRANSFER of the Jews. Regarding the TRANSFER of the [Palestinian] Arabs this is much easier than any other TRANSFER. There are Arab states in the vicinity . . . . and it is clear that if the [Palestinian] Arabs are removed [to these states] this will improve their condition and not the contrary."
--David Ben-Gurion 1944
Expulsion of the Palestinians: The Concept of "Transfer" in Zionist Political Thought, 1882-1948: Nur Masalha: 9780887282355: Amazon.com: Books

 

[Challenger]

The Muslim and Christian Palestinians are the descendants of the indigenous people of the area. That their ancestors converted to Christianity in 380 AD (in order to legally reside in Palestine) does not change who their ancestors were. Many of whom practiced Judaism before they converted to Christianity, and subsequently Islam.

Why do you continue to ignore the fact that there were many Jews who never converted?

I don't think Monti's ignoring the fact, it's just that in relation to the population as a whole these were a tiny minority, if they existed at all, within Palestine.

 

[Sixties Fan]

The fact is that military campaigns do move in new populations.

You'd be surprised. Unless those campaigns are part of a deliberate policy of colonisation, or mass migration most military campaigns of conquest merely superimpose a thin veneer of "new" ruling elites onto an indigenous population, who may or may not over time assimilate with the culture of their conquerors.

The assertion that Palestinians are "indigenous" and descendants of the ancient Canaanites (who were wiped out) is BS.

Who wiped out the Canaanites? There's no real archaeological evidence of any mass extinctions in the region.

Many Palestinians have lost their jobs because of BDS. On the other hand, The Israeli economy is growing. Useless boycott.

Irrelevant to this topic.

My mom's family were denied entry into the U.S. after WW2. If not for Israel, the only Jewish country which is a dot on the world map, where else could they have gone to?

Yes, probably thanks to Zionist pressure on Truman coupled with widespread American anti-semitism. This was always the Zionist plan to get as many fit and healthy displaced persons into Palestine after the war, it's lucky your parents were fit and healthy, many elderly or unfit Jewish people were ignored by, or refused aid from, the Zionists. As for where else could they have gone to, they could have returned to their various original native countries in Europe, there were no bans on Jewish French living in France, Belgians living in Belgium, etc. The UK took in many DPs after the war and apart from Palestine, they could have settled anywhere within the then British empire, Spain and Portugal accepted Jewish refugees as did many South American countries. the Zionist mantra that tey had nowhere else to go is a myth, as I've said before Zionists lie, period.

<<Who wiped out the Canaanites? There's no real archaeological evidence of any mass extinctions in the region.>

No one "wiped out" the Canaanites. The tribes in the region became the Nation of Israel with King David. The Jebusites of Jerusalem converted to Judaism. They were not killed once Jerusalem was conquered by King David and the Israelites.


"Palestinians" as it is viewed now, are the Arabs, and only the Arabs, Christians or Muslims as per 1964 when that Nationality was adopted by Arafat and the KGB.

During the Mandate, because the British chose to call that Mandate Palestine, and not Israel, Everyone who lived or moved there until Israel declared Independence was known as a Palestinian, and held Palestinian passports to be able to travel.

Before the end of the Ottoman hold of the area, 1917, no Arabs ever considered themselves Palestinians, nor called themselves that.

They were Muslims first and belonged to both the Muslim and Arab Nations.

Twist and turn the word Palestine until there is nothing left, it will not change the facts that the word Palestine and its nationalism were forced on the Arabs living in
what had been the Mandate for Palestine.

had the British chosen any other name for that Mandate, Arafat and the KGB would have adopted that name and still attempted to make them the indigenous people of the land, and not the actual indigenous ones - the Jews.

No denial of the Jews being the indigenous people of that land is ever going to make them stop being the indigenous people of that land.

 

[P F Tinmore]

"Palestinians" as it is viewed now, are the Arabs, and only the Arabs, Christians or Muslims as per 1964 when that Nationality was adopted by Arafat and the KGB.

Drawing up the framework of nationality, Article 30 of the Treaty of Lausanne stated:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipso facto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred.”​

The automatic, ipso facto, change from Ottoman to Palestinian nationality was dealt with in Article 1, paragraph 1, of the Citizenship Order, which declared:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”​

Genesis of Citizenship in Palestine and Israel

Article 7. Jews of Palestinian origin are considered Palestinians if they are willing to live peacefully and loyally in Palestine.

The Original Palestine National Charter (1964)

 

[Sixties Fan]

"Palestinians" as it is viewed now, are the Arabs, and only the Arabs, Christians or Muslims as per 1964 when that Nationality was adopted by Arafat and the KGB.

Drawing up the framework of nationality, Article 30 of the Treaty of Lausanne stated:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipso facto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred.”​

The automatic, ipso facto, change from Ottoman to Palestinian nationality was dealt with in Article 1, paragraph 1, of the Citizenship Order, which declared:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”​

Genesis of Citizenship in Palestine and Israel

Article 7. Jews of Palestinian origin are considered Palestinians if they are willing to live peacefully and loyally in Palestine.

The Original Palestine National Charter (1964)

"Palestine National Charter" ?????

That is the PLO as in Palestinian Liberation Organization intent of "Liberating" what was left from the war of 1948. All of Israel.
The Egyptians had Gaza. The Jordanians had Judea, Samaria and the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem.


You do not care what you read.

 

[Sixties Fan]

"Palestinians" as it is viewed now, are the Arabs, and only the Arabs, Christians or Muslims as per 1964 when that Nationality was adopted by Arafat and the KGB.

Drawing up the framework of nationality, Article 30 of the Treaty of Lausanne stated:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipso facto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred.”​

The automatic, ipso facto, change from Ottoman to Palestinian nationality was dealt with in Article 1, paragraph 1, of the Citizenship Order, which declared:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”​

Genesis of Citizenship in Palestine and Israel

Article 7. Jews of Palestinian origin are considered Palestinians if they are willing to live peacefully and loyally in Palestine.

The Original Palestine National Charter (1964)

Palestine was always a region. Israel was a Nation. Egypt was a Nation.
Syria was a Nation. Persia/Iran was a Nation.

Palestine was seen as a region one went to. A territory. Never a country or a Nation.
That is what we are talking about.
Jews as a Nation
Palestinians as a Nation.

There was never a People or Nation known as Palestine or Palestinians.

The Mandate refers to the region as Ottoman territory. Not as a country.
It refers to all of its inhabitants, Jews, Arabs, Muslims, Christians, Bahai, etc as Palestinians for the sake of the Mandate.
All other Mandates, and Egypt, etc created a Nationality once they formed a Nation after WWI, including TransJordan, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, etc.

No Nationality was defined in the Mandate for Palestine until Israel was finally recreated in 1948 and assumed the Jewish Nationality.

The Arabs only began to Nationally call themselves Palestinians after 1964. After Arafat went to Moscow and created that Nationality with the KGB.
Before that they saw themselves as part of Greater Syria, where the part where Israel was would be part of Syria.
They see themselves primarily as Muslims and Arabs.
It was that way from the 7th Century invasion out of Arabia all the way to 1964.

A region is not a country. Canaan was not a country. It was a region and the name of one of the tribes in the region.


Genesis of Citizenship in Palestine and Israel

Nationality in Palestine under British occupation, 1917-1922
18During this period Palestine was first placed under military rule and then under civil administration. From 9 December 1917 (when the province of Jerusalem was occupied by the British army as part of World War I in which Britain and Turkey were enemies) until the adoption of the Palestine Mandate on 24 July 1922 by the Council of the League of Nations, the international legal status of the country remained undetermined. As a result, the nationality of Palestine inhabitants, like that of the inhabitants of other ex-Ottoman territories at the time, remained similarly undetermined.

• 33 Abraham Baumkoller,Le mandat sur la Palestine (Paris: Librairie Arthur Rousseau, 1931), pp. 67-72; (...)
• 34 Herbert Samuel, An Interim Report on the Civil Administration of Palestine, 1 July 1920-30 July 19 (...)

19Britain’s occupation did not alter, in law, the international status of Palestine as an occupied Turkish territory. The allied powers meanwhile gathered in San Remo, Italy, to discuss a deal with Turkey and determine the future of Palestine (then including Trans-Jordan), along with Iraq and Syria (thenincluding Lebanon). On 25 April 1920, those powers decided that Ottoman Arabic-speaking territories would not be restored to Turkey.33 Instead, France was allotted a mandate for Syria and Britain was given mandates for Iraq and Palestine. Shortly after the San Remo conference, Britain declared unilateral mandate over Palestine on 1 July 1920. Britain simultaneously established a civil administration to replace the military government that had ruled the country since December 1917.34

20As the unilaterally declared mandate had no international legal effect, Palestine remained, at least nominally, an Ottoman territory. Britain itself accepted this international legal position. In May 1922, shortly before the adoption of the Mandate, Norman Bentwich, then Legal Secretary of the British-run government of Palestine, wrote:

• 35 “Mandated Territories,” supra note 6, p. 53.

“The principles enunciated in the Mandate await the beginning of realisation when the Council of the League of Nations shall at last have given its decision. And it is only when that step has been taken that the sovereign powers of the Mandatory can be effective, and the ‘damnosa hereditas’ from the Ottoman Empire… can be finally discarded… The Mandatory… will be entrusted with the control of the foreign relations of the Mandated State, and will have the right to afford diplomatic and consular protection to citizens of Palestine outside its territorial limits. Palestine will have a separate Government and form a separate national unity with its particular citizenship.”35

 

[P F Tinmore]

“The principles enunciated in the Mandate await the beginning of realisation when the Council of the League of Nations shall at last have given its decision. And it is only when that step has been taken that the sovereign powers of the Mandatory can be effective, and the ‘damnosa hereditas’ from the Ottoman Empire… can be finally discarded… The Mandatory… will be entrusted with the control of the foreign relations of the Mandated State, and will have the right to afford diplomatic and consular protection to citizens of Palestine outside its territorial limits. Palestine will have a separate Government and form a separate national unity with its particular citizenship.”35

Of course this was all pre Treaty of Lausanne when Palestine was still occupied Turkish territory.

The Mandatory… will be entrusted with the control of the foreign relations of the Mandated State.​

Mandated State does not mean that the Mandate was the state. Mandated State means the state of Palestine under Mandate.

 

[Hollie]

“The principles enunciated in the Mandate await the beginning of realisation when the Council of the League of Nations shall at last have given its decision. And it is only when that step has been taken that the sovereign powers of the Mandatory can be effective, and the ‘damnosa hereditas’ from the Ottoman Empire… can be finally discarded… The Mandatory… will be entrusted with the control of the foreign relations of the Mandated State, and will have the right to afford diplomatic and consular protection to citizens of Palestine outside its territorial limits. Palestine will have a separate Government and form a separate national unity with its particular citizenship.”35

Of course this was all pre Treaty of Lausanne when Palestine was still occupied Turkish territory.

The Mandatory… will be entrusted with the control of the foreign relations of the Mandated State.​

Mandated State does not mean that the Mandate was the state. Mandated State means the state of Palestine under Mandate.

You realize that your invented "country of Disney Pal'istan" never existed, right?

 

[ForeverYoung436]

“The principles enunciated in the Mandate await the beginning of realisation when the Council of the League of Nations shall at last have given its decision. And it is only when that step has been taken that the sovereign powers of the Mandatory can be effective, and the ‘damnosa hereditas’ from the Ottoman Empire… can be finally discarded… The Mandatory… will be entrusted with the control of the foreign relations of the Mandated State, and will have the right to afford diplomatic and consular protection to citizens of Palestine outside its territorial limits. Palestine will have a separate Government and form a separate national unity with its particular citizenship.”35

Of course this was all pre Treaty of Lausanne when Palestine was still occupied Turkish territory.

The Mandatory… will be entrusted with the control of the foreign relations of the Mandated State.​

Mandated State does not mean that the Mandate was the state. Mandated State means the state of Palestine under Mandate.

You realize that your invented "country of Disney Pal'istan" never existed, right?

No, he doesn't realize that, or the fact that Palestine was just the name of a geographic area. In the past, many ppl called it Southern Syria.

 

[Sixties Fan]

“The principles enunciated in the Mandate await the beginning of realisation when the Council of the League of Nations shall at last have given its decision. And it is only when that step has been taken that the sovereign powers of the Mandatory can be effective, and the ‘damnosa hereditas’ from the Ottoman Empire… can be finally discarded… The Mandatory… will be entrusted with the control of the foreign relations of the Mandated State, and will have the right to afford diplomatic and consular protection to citizens of Palestine outside its territorial limits. Palestine will have a separate Government and form a separate national unity with its particular citizenship.”35

Of course this was all pre Treaty of Lausanne when Palestine was still occupied Turkish territory.

The Mandatory… will be entrusted with the control of the foreign relations of the Mandated State.​

Mandated State does not mean that the Mandate was the state. Mandated State means the state of Palestine under Mandate.

The Turkish lost the war. Forget about the Treaty of Lausanne.

The Mandate for Palestine (Israel)
It was to be the State of Israel.
With eventually a majority Jewish population and minority non Jewish.

77% of the Mandate for Palestine was illegally given by the British trustees to the foreign-non-Jewish Arab clan recently (WWI) made to flee Arabia.

The whole 100% of the mandate for Palestine was to be given to the Jews as it was their ancient homeland. All of it.

Yes, the "Mandatory", be it for Palestine, Lebanon, Syria or Iraq, was to be administered by the British and the French until all of those Mandates were ready to become States. That is what that sentence means.
<<The Mandatory… will be entrusted with the control of the foreign relations of the Mandated State.>>


The extreme Arabs attacked the Jews from 1920 on, in Mandate Palestine, with intention of never allowing the Jews to recreate their Nation.
There were many Arab leaders who were for the recreation of the Jewish Nation, but they were killed or made to run or hide by the extreme ones led by the Husseini Clan.

No different from what continues to happen today.
Moderate Muslims want peace with the Jews and Israel.
Extremists want to destroy Israel and the Jews and turn it into a Muslim Caliphate.
Ask Hamas. They want an Islamic Caliphate.
Ask ISIS. They want an Islamic Caliphate.

It is not about Israel or Palestine.

It is about all of that land continuing to be in Muslim hands.

 

[montelatici]

Interesting how some can "forget" 500 years of history during which Aelia Capitolina was the capital of Roman Palaestina until the Muslim conquest of Christian Palestine.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The whole 100% of the mandate for Palestine was to be given to the Jews as it was their ancient homeland. All of it.

So, who was going to give it to the Jews? The LoN did not own it. Britain didn't own it. The UN didn't own it. Nobody could give away what was not theirs.

 

[Sixties Fan]

The whole 100% of the mandate for Palestine was to be given to the Jews as it was their ancient homeland. All of it.

So, who was going to give it to the Jews? The LoN did not own it. Britain didn't own it. The UN didn't own it. Nobody could give away what was not theirs.

Those who won WWI, following the Balfour Declaration and the League of Nations
(the body which preceded the UN) gave the Jewish Homeland back to the Jews.
The League of Nation was there exactly to decide issues like that, and it was decided in the San Remo Accords that the Jews would be given the Mandate for Palestine.

The Muslims did not "own" any of the land they moved into for 1300 years.
For the past 400 years (1517-1917) the Ottoman Turks conquered and kept the land until their defeat.

The Muslims/Arabs ended up with the rest of the Ottoman Empire. That would be 99% of all of the land they had power over from 1517 to 1917.

Arabs being indigenous of Arabia, and the indigenous people of Syria, Lebanon,
and Iraq still being around......
How much of any of that land was even suggested be separated for the use of the Kurds or any other minority which is indigenous to any of that region?
As it should have been?

Zero !!!!

The indigenous minorities had rights to their own National Sovereign States.
But the Allies did not think or care about them, any more than England ended up caring how much of the Mandate for Palestine the Jews (the indigenous people)
ended up with.

That is why England simply gave.....77% of the Mandate to Muslims who hated Jews in 1922. So that the Jews would not have it.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The whole 100% of the mandate for Palestine was to be given to the Jews as it was their ancient homeland. All of it.

So, who was going to give it to the Jews? The LoN did not own it. Britain didn't own it. The UN didn't own it. Nobody could give away what was not theirs.

Those who won WWI, following the Balfour Declaration and the League of Nations
(the body which preceded the UN) gave the Jewish Homeland back to the Jews.
The League of Nation was there exactly to decide issues like that, and it was decided in the San Remo Accords that the Jews would be given the Mandate for Palestine.

The Muslims did not "own" any of the land they moved into for 1300 years.
For the past 400 years (1517-1917) the Ottoman Turks conquered and kept the land until their defeat.

The Muslims/Arabs ended up with the rest of the Ottoman Empire. That would be 99% of all of the land they had power over from 1517 to 1917.

Arabs being indigenous of Arabia, and the indigenous people of Syria, Lebanon,
and Iraq still being around......
How much of any of that land was even suggested be separated for the use of the Kurds or any other minority which is indigenous to any of that region?
As it should have been?

Zero !!!!

The indigenous minorities had rights to their own National Sovereign States.
But the Allies did not think or care about them, any more than England ended up caring how much of the Mandate for Palestine the Jews (the indigenous people)
ended up with.

That is why England simply gave.....77% of the Mandate to Muslims who hated Jews in 1922. So that the Jews would not have it.

You are ducking my question.