Our Thirty Year Experiment

[johnrocks]

You can blame a lot of that on things like NAFTA and "Comparative Advantage", not free market capitalism, just because a job is lost does not make us poorer because of it, we have gone from blacksmiths to car manufacturers to technological superiority in spite of government interferences.

We are on the verge of losing our tech superiority. Basede on our declining education system and other countries increasing education systems.
Also as soon as we engineer someting new we have China or someone make it for us.
you think they do not learn how it is made and works?
Industrial espionage no longer needs spies, just eager corporations.

We aren't probably that far apart, I don't trust corporatism anymore than I do government, they work in tatum with each other,imho.


What we do about it is left to opinions I suppose.

 

[uscitizen]

The problem with righties is they just believe in Reaganomics because they do, it's a faith based thing I guess.

And lefties don't have as much faith in centralized planning...please

Planning in America?

Short sightedness is mainly what got us in this mess.

anyone with half a brain could have seen the credit crisis coming. And the results of massive offshoring.
But the greedy bastards just looked as far as the next quarters profits or their next bonus.

 

[johnrocks]

The problem with righties is they just believe in Reaganomics because they do, it's a faith based thing I guess.

And lefties don't have as much faith in centralized planning...please

Planning in America?

Short sightedness is mainly what got us in this mess.

anyone with half a brain could have seen the credit crisis coming. And the results of massive offshoring.
But the greedy bastards just looked as far as the next quarters profits or their next bonus.

I think a lot of it;in fact, most of it; is monetary related.

 

[uscitizen]

And lefties don't have as much faith in centralized planning...please

Planning in America?

Short sightedness is mainly what got us in this mess.

anyone with half a brain could have seen the credit crisis coming. And the results of massive offshoring.
But the greedy bastards just looked as far as the next quarters profits or their next bonus.

I think a lot of it;in fact, most of it; is monetary related.

Money and the focus on it is Americas number one problem.
Fear is likely our second worst problem.
There are more important things than money and fear.

 

[uscitizen]

You can blame a lot of that on things like NAFTA and "Comparative Advantage", not free market capitalism, just because a job is lost does not make us poorer because of it, we have gone from blacksmiths to car manufacturers to technological superiority in spite of government interferences.

We are on the verge of losing our tech superiority. Basede on our declining education system and other countries increasing education systems.
Also as soon as we engineer someting new we have China or someone make it for us.
you think they do not learn how it is made and works?
Industrial espionage no longer needs spies, just eager corporations.

We aren't probably that far apart, I don't trust corporatism anymore than I do government, they work in tatum with each other,imho.


What we do about it is left to opinions I suppose.

Corporatists in our government and judicial system is likely the biggest source of our problems in America.
We have become a politicorp.

 

[johnrocks]

We are on the verge of losing our tech superiority. Basede on our declining education system and other countries increasing education systems.
Also as soon as we engineer someting new we have China or someone make it for us.
you think they do not learn how it is made and works?
Industrial espionage no longer needs spies, just eager corporations.

We aren't probably that far apart, I don't trust corporatism anymore than I do government, they work in tatum with each other,imho.


What we do about it is left to opinions I suppose.

Corporatists in our government and judicial system is likely the biggest source of our problems in America.
We have become a politicorp.

Like I stated...we're probably closer in our views than either realizes That might not be a good thing though, some thinks my views are a bit at times

 

[uscitizen]

We aren't probably that far apart, I don't trust corporatism anymore than I do government, they work in tatum with each other,imho.


What we do about it is left to opinions I suppose.

Corporatists in our government and judicial system is likely the biggest source of our problems in America.
We have become a politicorp.

Like I stated...we're probably closer in our views than either realizes That might not be a good thing though, some thinks my views are a bit at times

Yep on many views. However My views are just my own. I truely do not follow any party although I am liberal on humanistic issues. I am fiscally conservative, believe in reasonable gun ownership. But view the NRA as a political entity and do not belong.

I am pretty on many of my views as well.
Most on here who try to pigeon hole me with any group are totaly cornfused.
I am to put it simply me a pratmatistic party of one.
Contrary to ordinary.

 

[AVG-JOE]

The right always has to go to "the Dems did it too!"

Look there are many mistakes that were made by Dems, many of which were made while trying to appease the radical right. But the point of this thread is that our failing economy is a result of the right wing's "trickle down" "supply side" "voodoo economics" theory.

And all you can do is cling to some idea that government is bad, progressives are communists and somehow they are responsible for the problems created by the thrity years failed economic theory.

Why not just be honest and say "they both screwed us" or had a hand in it instead of playing partisan games? Not directed at just you, that is the mindset ;it seems; with the majority of people. I'll see one side credit FDR's domestic spending for getting us out of the GD and the other side going , it was military spending because of WWll and the fight is on without either side slowing down long enough to see that BOTH is government spending and to credit or blame one then the other needs to be credited or blamed. Why not question the status quo , too much repeating what the respective talking heads and parties say, question both sides at every turn, they both are working out of THEIR best interests....not yours or mine.

As political ideologies go The Right, circa Y-2K, will forever bear the stigma of being the vehicle that 'Survival of the Fittest' used to drive the last economy off of a cliff in an effort to shake off greed, a tool that becomes more of a liability as we evolve toward World - Religion is another tool whose days are surely numbered as it changes from an asset to a liability for humanity.

Reagan may have set the stage but G.W. Bush will have histories honor of being the poster-boy for today's painful evolutionary step.

 

[GWV5903]

boedicca
Last time I checked 13T was "over 12T"

You seem to understand that we have a structural defict but you don't seem to understand that it began when we started cutting taxes for billionaires.

Now it's billionaires, so the households who make $250K or more need not worry about their taxes going up? Better inform Obummer he made a mistake, again......

 

[AVG-JOE]

Planning in America?

Short sightedness is mainly what got us in this mess.

anyone with half a brain could have seen the credit crisis coming. And the results of massive offshoring.
But the greedy bastards just looked as far as the next quarters profits or their next bonus.

I think a lot of it;in fact, most of it; is monetary related.

Money and the focus on it is Americas number one problem.
Fear is likely our second worst problem.
There are more important things than money and fear.

It has also been one of her greatest strengths. Americans will balance the crushing need for a future with personal security with the need for a secure future for the community because there is no place 'just west of here' to run to and evolution dictates that survival will require her to learn to live as a community.

America will ROCK in the next economy and the infrastructure and knowledge about harvesting resources provided by the lessons of Big Business as an economic endeavor will be one major reason why.

 

[AVG-JOE]

We just did not deregulate and cut taxes enough!
It is the darn Democrats fault!
It would have worked if not for those obstructionist libtards.

Don't damn the people and their need for infrastructure and education and don't damn the industrialist, capitalist or entrepreneur who had the vision to see profit and productivity in a world of educated people with infrastructure. Damn your political representative if he is more concerned with who gets the contract than what infrastructure gets built.

 

[uscitizen]

We just did not deregulate and cut taxes enough!
It is the darn Democrats fault!
It would have worked if not for those obstructionist libtards.

Don't damn the people and their need for infrastructure and education and don't damn the industrialist, capitalist or entrepreneur who had the vision to see profit and productivity in a world of educated people with infrastructure. Damn your political representative if he is more concerned with who gets the contract than what infrastructure gets built.

HUH?

Anyway the only thing that industrialists and such care about infrastructure is that someone else pays for it.

 

[AVG-JOE]

iamwhatiseem's point is spot on. Far too many of us have bought into the something for nothing notion. Say what you will, but you can't have nearly half the nation paying no income taxes, tax the other half into the poor house and then promise free ______ (fill in the blanks) to everybody.

It ain't gonna happen.

The solution is not lower taxes any more than the solution is higher taxes. The solution is fair taxes, like a sales tax.

Buy a Ferrari, pay Ferrari taxes - buy an '01 Fiesta, pay less.

Given the fairly wide divide between what it means to be 'very wealthy' what it means to be po' in America today, a sales tax alone would be extremely regressive unless it was balanced by a ridiculous income tax of like 5% on incomes over - like a million a year, but it would be a whole lot simpler and a whole lot more fair than what we currently do.

The fact that we, as a people, support an economic endeavor worth many billions of dollars per year just to do the paperwork required to earn a living in this country will make us look pretty stupid in the history books of the future, IMHO.

What were H & R Blocks profits last year?

 

[saveliberty]

So we had a stable and expanding economy for alsmot fifty years and since the "conservative era" started we have had falling wages, soaring deficits, crumbling infrastructure but somehow it was the result of Keynsian economics?

It was Keynsian economixs which built this country into the manufacturing powerhouse it was until Reagan.

The proof is in the pudding!

History does not support you. Cheap labor, division of labor and advancements in technology built the country. Men of vision.

 

[Darkwind]

Well, it's been thirty years now. Thirty years since "Reaganomics" was begun and what has been the result? For many at this site I suspect that this time frame may exceed their memories (they may not be old enough). Some of us though do remember a time before soaring budget deficits, wild military spending and destructive un-restrained greed.

There was a time when one worker could support a family. Typically mom could stay home to raise the children and nurture productive citizens. Now it takes two or even three incomes just to keep a family in a home.

Middle class families could expect to send their children to college, save for retirement, go to the doctor and even have two weeks of paid vacation. Not any more. Now more and more people are slipping into a "new" class of American citizens, that being the "working class", those who work low paying jobs which provide no benifits and leave people living pay check to pay check. AKA the working poor.

Before "supply siders" began setting national policy America was the greatest producer of finished goods in the world. Now we are the greatest importer of finished goods, sending our money to other countries for the necessities of daily life. We were the greatest crediter nation, now we are the greatest debter nation.

Huge tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations along with massive government spending on the military was suppossed to spur our economy. It did to an extent because the government outlays amounted to a economic "stimulus package".

Unfortunately, the huge tax cuts coupled with foolish reductions on import tariffs were simply an incentive for the capitalists to liquidate assets here in America, pocket the proceeds and then use some of it to re-open the factories they closed in other countries where labor and environmental standards were weak or non-exisitent. It's been great for capitalists, bad for the vast majority of Americans. High taxes on capitalists provide and incentive for profits to be re-invested in the companies thus enlarging and strengthening them, leading to higher employment and wages.

"Trickle-down" theory coupled with the right wing assault on organized labor has served to drive down the cost of labor. Now you may think that you are immune to this lowering of the wage base because you have a college education, but there are people in China and India with the equivalent education who will work for a third what you will. I'm a General Building Contractor and one of the structural engineers I work with was shocked to find out that he had lost a job to a firm in India which engineered an entire house for only $1500.00, far less than the $7600.00 he had bid.

Of course some jobs can't be out sourced, like construction or meat packing. So, for those jobs the capitalists imported labor, all those illegal immigrants the right wing pretends to be so upset about. But of course, we don't have an illegal immigration problem, we have an illegal employment problem. Start rounding up illegal employers, fining or even sending them to jail and over night the illegal immigration problem would go away. As a side benifit we could stop demonizing Americans who "look" foreign.

So, now after this thirty years experiment the results are definitive. Huge federal debt, ever inceasing budget deficits, falling wages, falling rates of home ownership, almost non existent personal savings rates. And some how half of America has been fooled into believeing it is the result of "socialism".

It is important to note that free enterprise and capitlalism are not necessarily the same thing. Remember that a capitalist is one who makes all their money from intrest and dividends, everyone else is labor, regardless of what color your collar is.

It is imperative that we raise the wage base. Falling wages lead to a diminished tax base, the results of which can be seen in our crumbling infrastructure which decreases the chance of economic oportunity.

For almost fifty years after WWII America had rising wages and prosperity for all, then came the "Reagan Revolution" and we can see the results of this Thirty Year Experiment.

So, you are a Keynsian apologist without the benefit of ever having thought for yourself.

Oh, and your a liar. But by all means, don't let the stop you.

 

[saveliberty]

God almighty, it is both tragic and hilarious when simple minds get together and can't form an intelligent opinion among the lot.

The economic mess we are in goes faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar beyond Reagan or any President for that matter.
This economy is a perfect combination of:
Unbridled Greed
Complacency
Indifference
Carelessness
Cluelessness
Complete disregard for the future by politicians, businesses and even more so average Americans everywhere
Voracious inability of people to be satisfied with what they have
Brain-dead inability to think in a critical manner by a mushroom population of spoiled people living well beyond their means with not an inkling of care of what their actions do to each other.

Shall I go on.
Reaganomics...good God people.

The greed and thirst for power come from politicans, not the leaders of our economy. Your mindless fear of the builders in this country has allowed politicans to herd you like a sheep.

 

[jillian]

Our national debt was about 700 billion when Reagan took office. Where are we now?

What was it when bush took over? He said we had a surplus and that meant americans were entitled to a refund. Of course, then he started two wars and ran them on our credit card.

 

[Flopper]

With Republican efforts to destroy the unions...

I know I'm going to regret this, but how are Republicans doing this? Also, why do you only say Republicans? Have all Democrats always voted against Republicans?

Yeh, you'll probably regret it but here goes. The minimum wage was introduce in the US in 1938 and has been increased a number of times with substantial opposition from Republicans. Republican opposition to unions goes back to the 19th century. You need only google the history of labor unions to see the years of opposition to the unions by the Republican party. There are several reasons for Republican opposition to unions. First of all, the Republican Party has traditional been the party of big business in 19th and 20th century. Second Republican economist have long argued that free market forces should determine labor rates, not artificial rates establish by the government or unions.

There are always some Democrats and Republicans that will not vote with their party. In recent years, with polarization in the country, few congressman are willing to break ranks with their party. Only a few will vote their conscience or the wishes of their constituents.

 

[uscitizen]

Our national debt was about 700 billion when Reagan took office. Where are we now?

What was it when bush took over? He said we had a surplus and that meant americans were entitled to a refund. Of course, then he started two wars and ran them on our credit card.

We still had a debt when Bush took over so any surplus should have gone to pay that off.
Although I believe the only surplus was spun up in a blender.

 

[Flopper]

With Republican efforts to destroy the unions and eliminate minimum wage, their goals become quite clear, a fully employed America with wages a fraction of what they are today. America manufacturing will then be able to compete with China and third world countries. Workers will of course have to make a few sacrifices.

The wages of the Chinese and other 'third world' middle classes coming up and in line with reality on an ever shrinking planet will do much more. The wages of Europe and her spawn America will balance down a little, but there are still a LOT of resources on this planet to exploit. At some point in time nobody will have a gold toilet, but at the same time, nobody will starve, either.

America will ROCK in the next economy because more and more American workers are getting dividend-paying stock in the companies they work for as compensation, and smart Americans are buying stock in their suppliers and competitors.

The Chinese will do well in the next economy because government will still have a major role and, compared to Americans at least, the Chinese trust the government they are inheriting.

More and more higher paid workers are being offered stock in their company as a part of their compensation which may be a good thing. But for middle class earners, financial advisors recommend against any substantial ownership in company stock. The failure of the company can mean your retirement or savings are wiped out. Layoffs typically come when stock prices are low which again can be devastating for the employee. Few low end workers are able to afford ownership in company stock.