Our Thirty Year Experiment

[wihosa]

jp

We've been in a class war for three decades, it's just when the people demand something out of the society that then the elites cry "class warfare".

So what if we spend as much on our military as the rest of the world combined!

 

[johnrocks]

so johnnyrocks
for nearly fifty years we had expanding employment, rising wages and broad based prosperity and then we tried Reaganomics for the last thitry years, but somehow it was that time when things were good that is at fault?

So, it was expanding and then when it collapses and the bubbles start popping....it's Reaganomics fault, I'm no "Reagan Head" but how come one always gets the blame or the credit depending on the ideology one has?


Government created these bubbles with a reckless monetary policy for one thing; Greenspan needs his ass kicked; to blame this failure on markets and capitalism is akin to a kindergarten teacher taking sugar babies,gummy bears and cokes to class and then blaming the kids for having a sugar rush, government fostered greed with artificially low interest rates, the people simply took the bait.

 

[johnrocks]

The problem with righties is they just believe in Reaganomics because they do, it's a faith based thing I guess.

And lefties don't have as much faith in centralized planning...please

 

[wihosa]

flopper

Why would we care about those losers? If you're not one of the wealthy elite we just don't care about you.

By the way full employment would never do, we need high unemployment in order to keep wages low, we wouldn't want businesses to start bidding up the cost of scarce workers, now would we?

 

[wihosa]

johnnyrocks
Just who was setting the governemnt's agenda when "bubbles, reckless monetary policies..." were begun?

This is the result of"supply side" theory.

 

[johnrocks]

johnnyrocks
Just who was setting the governemnt's agenda when "bubbles, reckless monetary policies..." were begun?

This is the result of"supply side" theory.

Bubbles started because of a reckless Monetary policy,imho. It's not so simple as to blame it on just the R's or D's when both had their hands in the cookie jar. Read "Greenspan's Bubbles", you may agree or you may disagree but at least it talks about other things besides "your side bad,my side rocks" nonsense.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/GREENSPANS-BUBBLES-IGNORANCE-FEDERAL-RESERVE/dp/0071591583]Amazon.com: GREENSPAN'S BUBBLES: THE AGE OF IGNORANCE AT THE…[/ame]

 

[johnrocks]

Also look into Arthur Burns tenure as Federal Reserve Chairman, how LBJ took Fannie and Freddy off budget to hide the deficits caused by Vietnam and the New Society and Nixon taking us off of Bretton Woods and his price controls, among other things, both parties suck bro and it's "We the People" who are their pawns.

 

[wihosa]

The right always has to go to "the Dems did it too!"

Look there are many mistakes that were made by Dems, many of which were made while trying to appease the radical right. But the point of this thread is that our failing economy is a result of the right wing's "trickle down" "supply side" "voodoo economics" theory.

And all you can do is cling to some idea that government is bad, progressives are communists and somehow they are responsible for the problems created by the thrity years failed economic theory.

 

[Metternich]

With Republican efforts to destroy the unions...

I know I'm going to regret this, but how are Republicans doing this? Also, why do you only say Republicans? Have all Democrats always voted against Republicans?

 

[wihosa]

yes metternich
Of course there have been Dems that voted with the Repubs.

But, when discussing issues like this it is necessary to use generalities. On the subject of unions it is fair to say the D's support them and the R's do not.

It was Reagan who busted the air traffic contollers union with much fanfare and cheering from the Repubs.

 

[AVG-JOE]

ave joe

It is exactly your point on a world run by big business for big business that our country with a "Government of, by, and for the People" was intended to guard against.

"We, The People" is another of evolutions amazing tools for carving a Sentient World from a wet rock using Star Power for fuel.

 

[uscitizen]

soggy

Time to get the right wing talking points out of your head.

So when you've cut your expences to the necessities and you're still having a hard time keeping up with your bills the right thing to do is ask for a pay cut?

Yeah, let's cut taxes for Warren Buffet, he really needs it!

So, you're claiming we have cut our spending to the necessities? Are you high?

And yes, I'm sure you're a big fan of taxes.. for everyone else.

You show a ccomplete lack of understanding of taxation and economic growth.

I pay 3 to 4 times as much income tax as most people in my income range, because I have no children.

Yes, I want to raise other people's taxes. I want to raise them up to the same amount I PAY, if they make the same amount I pay.

That would be fair wouldn't it?

why should ones without children subsidize those with children.
That is not encouraging personal responsibility for ones family.
In fact US social structure supports others with children unable to pay for them.
Why have them if you cannot afford to support them?
Kinda like buying houses and cars you cannot pay for?

 

[uscitizen]

One thing for sure on the US economic system.
the rules have changed with globalization and poorer nations competing with richer ones.
The way we do things HAS to change or we go down the drain.

 

[johnrocks]

The right always has to go to "the Dems did it too!"

Look there are many mistakes that were made by Dems, many of which were made while trying to appease the radical right. But the point of this thread is that our failing economy is a result of the right wing's "trickle down" "supply side" "voodoo economics" theory.

And all you can do is cling to some idea that government is bad, progressives are communists and somehow they are responsible for the problems created by the thrity years failed economic theory.

Why not just be honest and say "they both screwed us" or had a hand in it instead of playing partisan games? Not directed at just you, that is the mindset ;it seems; with the majority of people. I'll see one side credit FDR's domestic spending for getting us out of the GD and the other side going , it was military spending because of WWll and the fight is on without either side slowing down long enough to see that BOTH is government spending and to credit or blame one then the other needs to be credited or blamed. Why not question the status quo , too much repeating what the respective talking heads and parties say, question both sides at every turn, they both are working out of THEIR best interests....not yours or mine.

 

[uscitizen]

With Republican efforts to destroy the unions...

I know I'm going to regret this, but how are Republicans doing this? Also, why do you only say Republicans? Have all Democrats always voted against Republicans?

No many obviously voted for Bush a time or two.
And many who would have voted for hillary refused to vote for a black man as president.

 

[wihosa]

uscitizen

Trade between nations is differnt today only in the amount of trade. The need to protect domestic industries with tariffs is the same as it was when the framers instituted those tariffs. Unfortunately we listened to the capitalists who knew they could make a lot of money if we would do away with tariffs.

Well we did, they did and now many of the good paying jobs are gone and we're worse off for it.

 

[johnrocks]

You can blame a lot of that on things like NAFTA and "Comparative Advantage", not free market capitalism, just because a job is lost does not make us poorer because of it, we have gone from blacksmiths to car manufacturers to technological superiority in spite of government interferences.

 

[uscitizen]

uscitizen

Trade between nations is differnt today only in the amount of trade. The need to protect domestic industries with tariffs is the same as it was when the framers instituted those tariffs. Unfortunately we listened to the capitalists who knew they could make a lot of money if we would do away with tariffs.

Well we did, they did and now many of the good paying jobs are gone and we're worse off for it.

for the USA at least it is different in that many of our industries have moved their manufacturing facilities offshore to low labor places and import the manufactured goods back to the USA.
Jobs go away here and wages drop. This is an unsustainable model. From the USA's point of view at least. Good for the other countries as their standards of living increases.

However in one way it might be good for world peace. would we want to nuke our source of cell phones and computers?

 

[uscitizen]

You can blame a lot of that on things like NAFTA and "Comparative Advantage", not free market capitalism, just because a job is lost does not make us poorer because of it, we have gone from blacksmiths to car manufacturers to technological superiority in spite of government interferences.

We are on the verge of losing our tech superiority. Basede on our declining education system and other countries increasing education systems.
Also as soon as we engineer someting new we have China or someone make it for us.
you think they do not learn how it is made and works?
Industrial espionage no longer needs spies, just eager corporations.

 

[AVG-JOE]

With Republican efforts to destroy the unions and eliminate minimum wage, their goals become quite clear, a fully employed America with wages a fraction of what they are today. America manufacturing will then be able to compete with China and third world countries. Workers will of course have to make a few sacrifices.

The wages of the Chinese and other 'third world' middle classes coming up and in line with reality on an ever shrinking planet will do much more. The wages of Europe and her spawn America will balance down a little, but there are still a LOT of resources on this planet to exploit. At some point in time nobody will have a gold toilet, but at the same time, nobody will starve, either.

America will ROCK in the next economy because more and more American workers are getting dividend-paying stock in the companies they work for as compensation, and smart Americans are buying stock in their suppliers and competitors.

The Chinese will do well in the next economy because government will still have a major role and, compared to Americans at least, the Chinese trust the government they are inheriting.