Our immigration laws protect illegal aliens

[Sweet Willy]

Exigency trumps probable cause.
It was said that innocent until proven guilty is our bedrock principle - not with forfeiture laws! You are guilty until you prove your innocence!
Inforce the law at the border, in the work place - wherever! If the US would do that there would be alot less conversation about immigration - which amounts to squat!

You are not living in reality. The sheer logistics make it impossible to enforce the border. You may as well demand that the speed limit be enforced 100%. You CAN'T DO IT. The sheer numbers are impossible. How many speeders do you think get caught and why? DO you believe it would be reasonable to demand that we enforce traffic laws in the same manner people are demanding the border secure?

It's 2,000 miles and a lot of desert. Even if it were a nice, flat, paved highway.... say I - 40 from Charlotte, NC to Albuquerque, NM, how EXACTLY would you propose to keep pedestrians from crossing even a nice flat, straight highway, in the dead of the night and HOW WOULD YOU PAY FOR IT? You can't do it. It's been tried. The Berlin wall was only 90 miles long, guarded with shoot to kill orders and THOUSANDS STILL CROSSED IT.

You people are not thinking in realities. You are repeating shit you heard on TV. If this was as easy as you guys think it is, IT WOULD ALREADY BE DONE. Let me give you a HINT of the TRUTH: There is no conspiracy to let the illegals in. We have had this problem since the country was built.... and we NEVER have been able to stop it BECAUSE WE CAN'T. Get that through your head. The only approach is to attack the incentives.

 

[freedombecki]

Exigency trumps probable cause.
It was said that innocent until proven guilty is our bedrock principle - not with forfeiture laws! You are guilty until you prove your innocence!
Inforce the law at the border, in the work place - wherever! If the US would do that there would be alot less conversation about immigration - which amounts to squat!

It would be cool if the border were less porous.

We have manpower here. Unfortunately, it's easier to collect $60,000 a year in health benefits, welfare checks, food stamps, etc. than it is to work for a living making only $22,000, and having to be responsible for your own food, paying your own rent, medical costs, etc.

 

[Duped]

Exigency trumps probable cause.
It was said that innocent until proven guilty is our bedrock principle - not with forfeiture laws! You are guilty until you prove your innocence!
Inforce the law at the border, in the work place - wherever! If the US would do that there would be alot less conversation about immigration - which amounts to squat!

You are not living in reality. The sheer logistics make it impossible to enforce the border. You may as well demand that the speed limit be enforced 100%. You CAN'T DO IT. The sheer numbers are impossible. How many speeders do you think get caught and why? DO you believe it would be reasonable to demand that we enforce traffic laws in the same manner people are demanding the border secure?

It's 2,000 miles and a lot of desert. Even if it were a nice, flat, paved highway.... say I - 40 from Charlotte, NC to Albuquerque, NM, how EXACTLY would you propose to keep pedestrians from crossing even a nice flat, straight highway, in the dead of the night and HOW WOULD YOU PAY FOR IT? You can't do it. It's been tried. The Berlin wall was only 90 miles long, guarded with shoot to kill orders and THOUSANDS STILL CROSSED IT.

You people are not thinking in realities. You are repeating shit you heard on TV. If this was as easy as you guys think it is, IT WOULD ALREADY BE DONE. Let me give you a HINT of the TRUTH: There is no conspiracy to let the illegals in. We have had this problem since the country was built.... and we NEVER have been able to stop it BECAUSE WE CAN'T. Get that through your head. The only approach is to attack the incentives.

If you do a multi prong approach most would self deport. You can't catch them all but you can catch all you can. The reason you can't do it is because too many Americans hate this country and would rather give it away as I stated earlier. You can't kill all the rats but you wouldn't just leave them be because of it - you kill what you can. Others get the message and scurry around. I'm tired of these illegals with their chest stuck out like we owe them something. Enforce the laws where you can when you can. You ignored my ? earlier. Do you think we should enforce our laws?

 

[LilOlLady]

The lil ol lady is deranged.

The 4th amendment protects me and every American from unreasonable searches. There is no such protection for illegals. An American can not be legally forced to produce ID. The governing case law is Hiibel. Illegals have no such protection. However, you don't get to toss me and my rights under the bus because you're a bitter old lady who has some axe to grind with illegals. We don't let you profile people and ask for ID because it would mean that x number of Americans would have to show ID, adverse to the 4th amendment. We would even end up deporting some Americans who might not be able to produce ID. You see, there is no requirement for an American to even possess ID. It's a fundamnetal little thing we like to call "freedom". Crossing the border illegally is a misdemeanor. We (sane Americans) are not going to be sacrificing the 4th amendment anytime soon in order to catch a bunch of misdemeanors.

wrong answer. Obama, DOJ and ACLU protects illegal aliens. If I am stopped on a traffice violation I MUST who driver license, registration and proof of insurance and If I cannot I will be ticketed and have to produce them in court or else. Illegal aliens are turned over to ICE and released.
I am bitter about illegal immigration and I make no apology. Every american over the age of 18 is required by law to carry identification.
Those 20 million MISDEMEANORS is destroying the country. And some of them are gang members dealing in drugs, etc
Otrher are killling and raping.
You talk like a third grader on crack.

 

[Sweet Willy]

Exigency trumps probable cause.
It was said that innocent until proven guilty is our bedrock principle - not with forfeiture laws! You are guilty until you prove your innocence!
Inforce the law at the border, in the work place - wherever! If the US would do that there would be alot less conversation about immigration - which amounts to squat!

You are not living in reality. The sheer logistics make it impossible to enforce the border. You may as well demand that the speed limit be enforced 100%. You CAN'T DO IT. The sheer numbers are impossible. How many speeders do you think get caught and why? DO you believe it would be reasonable to demand that we enforce traffic laws in the same manner people are demanding the border secure?

It's 2,000 miles and a lot of desert. Even if it were a nice, flat, paved highway.... say I - 40 from Charlotte, NC to Albuquerque, NM, how EXACTLY would you propose to keep pedestrians from crossing even a nice flat, straight highway, in the dead of the night and HOW WOULD YOU PAY FOR IT? You can't do it. It's been tried. The Berlin wall was only 90 miles long, guarded with shoot to kill orders and THOUSANDS STILL CROSSED IT.

You people are not thinking in realities. You are repeating shit you heard on TV. If this was as easy as you guys think it is, IT WOULD ALREADY BE DONE. Let me give you a HINT of the TRUTH: There is no conspiracy to let the illegals in. We have had this problem since the country was built.... and we NEVER have been able to stop it BECAUSE WE CAN'T. Get that through your head. The only approach is to attack the incentives.

If you do a multi prong approach most would self deport. You can't catch them all but you can catch all you can. The reason you can't do it is because too many Americans hate this country and would rather give it away as I stated earlier. You can't kill all the rats but you wouldn't just leave them be because of it - you kill what you can. Others get the message and scurry around. I'm tired of these illegals with their chest stuck out like we owe them something. Enforce the laws where you can when you can. You ignored my ? earlier. Do you think we should enforce our laws?

No, I did not ignore your question.

We do enforce our laws to the best of our ability. In fact, we have set records the last two years running for enforcing our laws. However, anyone that stops to think for a moment can't help but realize that more enforcement is not going to make the sort of impact you seem to want. If more enforcement could cause you to see vast improvements, you already would have. We have RECORD levels of enforcement and instead of recognizing the monumental efforts we have made and the ton of money we have spent and the best results ever.... instead, you and your ilk swallow the pack of lies the politicians sell you and speak as if we are doing the worst job ever... when the exact opposite is true: we are doing the best job ever... BUT, you are RIGHT in one aspect: it's not enough. And it never will be. The numbers just don't lie. You will never see anymore of an impact on illegals numbers, due to enforcement, then you have ever seen an impact on speeders, due to enforcement. It's the same logistical game. Too many of them to do anything about. So.... do you keep hiring cops until there is a cop for ever three cars on the road? Or do you install speed bumps?

The facts are that we have never and will never enforce the border with man power. Can't be done. It's not sustainable. You simply can't patrol thousands of square miles of desert forever at the level it takes to be even 50% effective, and ever pay for it. It'll break us in ten years, before even 3 million are gone.

Look, I can't over power your brain from the people who are using you and everyone else to leverage this issue as a tool. But that's what you have to figure out if you want to lead your officials to do something rather than have them lad you on this wild goose chase. Jan Brewer and Joe Arapio and the rest know they can't make a dent in this thing with cops. But they also know that it's a great issue to rattle cages with. The illegals are on the border for a few hours or a day at most, when they cross it. They are on the job EVERY SINGLE DAY at the same plant, dressing chickens. But you guys let these politicos distract you from the chicken plant and look at the border where we can't be effective, never have been in 200 years. We know where these people are and we know how to make them leave.

But go ahead.... elect these people who are going to blow your money on more men and equipment while their campaign donors stand behind the border patrol waving dollar bills at poor people. You will NEVER see results in your lifetime from enforcement any better than you have already seen. We've topped out on reasonable enforcement levels. The only effective thing left is to take the jobs. Why not? It cost us next to nothing. Do yo think we're supposed to keep on with "dare" situation of "if you can make it across the border, you're home free.... cause we won;t touch your boss once you get here..." ? Is that the proposition you want to keep? Cause it's working like 10 pounds of shit in a 5 pound bag.

 

[sealybobo]

Our immigration laws protect illegal employers

 

[LilOlLady]

Probable cause is a wonderfully elastic term isn't it?

My question therefore remains: Why are legal aliens required to carry their Resident Alien card at all times (it is, I believe, a misdemeanor)? Why not just regular state ID?

The only logical explanation IMO would seem to be that they are required to be able to provide proof that they are in the country legally. Maybe that's too obvious though. These things are never quite as cut and dried as they seem.

Interesting info, BTW. Thanks.

It's not even probable cause needed to ask for ID. It is "reasonable suspicion", which is less than probable cause.

Non citizens may well be required to have an ID on them, but the problem is, how do you go about enforcing people to produce this ID without stepping on citizens rights who DO NOT have to carry ID or produce it? So... what is the procedure for when a guy maybe looks a certain way, so the town cop now has a state mandate to check his status, but the guy was born in East LA and doesn't have a green card AND he has no license or ID, which is perfectly legal as an American citizen?

Just isn't anyway around the situation without stepping all over the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. There are multiple adverse effects on the right to freedom of travel and the right against illegal searches.

Fact is, none of this is needed if we had the balls to go after the corporations and millionaires that hire these people. But as always, it is nearly impossible to do anything meaningful against people who can afford large campaign contributions.

I agree broadly speaking, though I don't think that going after the corporations solves the issue. It helps, but it's not the be all and end all.

NO one is stopping jose and maria on the street asking for their id.

 

[Sweet Willy]

The lil ol lady is deranged.

The 4th amendment protects me and every American from unreasonable searches. There is no such protection for illegals. An American can not be legally forced to produce ID. The governing case law is Hiibel. Illegals have no such protection. However, you don't get to toss me and my rights under the bus because you're a bitter old lady who has some axe to grind with illegals. We don't let you profile people and ask for ID because it would mean that x number of Americans would have to show ID, adverse to the 4th amendment. We would even end up deporting some Americans who might not be able to produce ID. You see, there is no requirement for an American to even possess ID. It's a fundamnetal little thing we like to call "freedom". Crossing the border illegally is a misdemeanor. We (sane Americans) are not going to be sacrificing the 4th amendment anytime soon in order to catch a bunch of misdemeanors.

wrong answer. Obama, DOJ and ACLU protects illegal aliens. If I am stopped on a traffice violation I MUST who driver license, registration and proof of insurance and If I cannot I will be ticketed and have to produce them in court or else. Illegal aliens are turned over to ICE and released.
I am bitter about illegal immigration and I make no apology. Every american over the age of 18 is required by law to carry identification.
Those 20 million MISDEMEANORS is destroying the country. And some of them are gang members dealing in drugs, etc
Otrher are killling and raping.
You talk like a third grader on crack.

You are a bitter one and also completely and wholly wrong. No American is required to carry any form of ID. Period. It's been said and shown, the law and case law cited.

Driving is a privilege, not a right. You have a license to prove your qualification to drive an automobile, not to identify yourself as a citizen.

No, the country is not being destroyed by illegals. You talk like chicken little. We came very close to being destroyed recently but it wasn't poor Hispanics that caused it. It was rich, white bankers.

The implication that illegal aliens represent some great crime threat is totally bogus and has been debunked over and over Illegals are much less likely to commit crimes in the US than citizens. Just like the last guy claiming that illegals crimes in Arizona were "off the charts", you are full of crap. In Arizona, crime is DOWN across the board over the past 7 years. Not up. Blatant propaganda lie. And you're even more full of them than that guy.

Illegals are a problem. They are not a plague. There are some very reasonable and effective ways to solve this problem without spending tons of wasted money and without stepping on the constitution. Why there is such a problem with a harsh approach to employment, I can't figure. Everyone knows that what makes them go home. But it appears that if we don't rough them up, break a leg or two and smash some heads, you assholes won't be happy.

At any rate, take my word, so long as the loudest message is the one you guys are spouting, you will never see any significant gains on this in your life time. You will die with the bitter taste of hate on your lips. Cause it just isn't possible to go get them all. Too many of them. It's not hard to understand.

Cheers!

 

[Duped]

You are not living in reality. The sheer logistics make it impossible to enforce the border. You may as well demand that the speed limit be enforced 100%. You CAN'T DO IT. The sheer numbers are impossible. How many speeders do you think get caught and why? DO you believe it would be reasonable to demand that we enforce traffic laws in the same manner people are demanding the border secure?

It's 2,000 miles and a lot of desert. Even if it were a nice, flat, paved highway.... say I - 40 from Charlotte, NC to Albuquerque, NM, how EXACTLY would you propose to keep pedestrians from crossing even a nice flat, straight highway, in the dead of the night and HOW WOULD YOU PAY FOR IT? You can't do it. It's been tried. The Berlin wall was only 90 miles long, guarded with shoot to kill orders and THOUSANDS STILL CROSSED IT.

You people are not thinking in realities. You are repeating shit you heard on TV. If this was as easy as you guys think it is, IT WOULD ALREADY BE DONE. Let me give you a HINT of the TRUTH: There is no conspiracy to let the illegals in. We have had this problem since the country was built.... and we NEVER have been able to stop it BECAUSE WE CAN'T. Get that through your head. The only approach is to attack the incentives.

If you do a multi prong approach most would self deport. You can't catch them all but you can catch all you can. The reason you can't do it is because too many Americans hate this country and would rather give it away as I stated earlier. You can't kill all the rats but you wouldn't just leave them be because of it - you kill what you can. Others get the message and scurry around. I'm tired of these illegals with their chest stuck out like we owe them something. Enforce the laws where you can when you can. You ignored my ? earlier. Do you think we should enforce our laws?

No, I did not ignore your question.

We do enforce our laws to the best of our ability. In fact, we have set records the last two years running for enforcing our laws. However, anyone that stops to think for a moment can't help but realize that more enforcement is not going to make the sort of impact you seem to want. If more enforcement could cause you to see vast improvements, you already would have. We have RECORD levels of enforcement and instead of recognizing the monumental efforts we have made and the ton of money we have spent and the best results ever.... instead, you and your ilk swallow the pack of lies the politicians sell you and speak as if we are doing the worst job ever... when the exact opposite is true: we are doing the best job ever... BUT, you are RIGHT in one aspect: it's not enough. And it never will be. The numbers just don't lie. You will never see anymore of an impact on illegals numbers, due to enforcement, then you have ever seen an impact on speeders, due to enforcement. It's the same logistical game. Too many of them to do anything about. So.... do you keep hiring cops until there is a cop for ever three cars on the road? Or do you install speed bumps?

The facts are that we have never and will never enforce the border with man power. Can't be done. It's not sustainable. You simply can't patrol thousands of square miles of desert forever at the level it takes to be even 50% effective, and ever pay for it. It'll break us in ten years, before even 3 million are gone.

Look, I can't over power your brain from the people who are using you and everyone else to leverage this issue as a tool. But that's what you have to figure out if you want to lead your officials to do something rather than have them lad you on this wild goose chase. Jan Brewer and Joe Arapio and the rest know they can't make a dent in this thing with cops. But they also know that it's a great issue to rattle cages with. The illegals are on the border for a few hours or a day at most, when they cross it. They are on the job EVERY SINGLE DAY at the same plant, dressing chickens. But you guys let these politicos distract you from the chicken plant and look at the border where we can't be effective, never have been in 200 years. We know where these people are and we know how to make them leave.

But go ahead.... elect these people who are going to blow your money on more men and equipment while their campaign donors stand behind the border patrol waving dollar bills at poor people. You will NEVER see results in your lifetime from enforcement any better than you have already seen. We've topped out on reasonable enforcement levels. The only effective thing left is to take the jobs. Why not? It cost us next to nothing. Do yo think we're supposed to keep on with "dare" situation of "if you can make it across the border, you're home free.... cause we won;t touch your boss once you get here..." ? Is that the proposition you want to keep? Cause it's working like 10 pounds of shit in a 5 pound bag.

I agree with you that we should go for the Jobs 100% Wen we catch illegals we should also give them enough punishment to deter them from reentry. Empty the non violent drug offenders from prison and make some room for them! You can't have the same ones getting caught continually. You have to go after these santuaries also. The feds need to go after anyone who abrogates their authority; provides haven for ILLEGALS!

 

[Sweet Willy]

If you do a multi prong approach most would self deport. You can't catch them all but you can catch all you can. The reason you can't do it is because too many Americans hate this country and would rather give it away as I stated earlier. You can't kill all the rats but you wouldn't just leave them be because of it - you kill what you can. Others get the message and scurry around. I'm tired of these illegals with their chest stuck out like we owe them something. Enforce the laws where you can when you can. You ignored my ? earlier. Do you think we should enforce our laws?

No, I did not ignore your question.

We do enforce our laws to the best of our ability. In fact, we have set records the last two years running for enforcing our laws. However, anyone that stops to think for a moment can't help but realize that more enforcement is not going to make the sort of impact you seem to want. If more enforcement could cause you to see vast improvements, you already would have. We have RECORD levels of enforcement and instead of recognizing the monumental efforts we have made and the ton of money we have spent and the best results ever.... instead, you and your ilk swallow the pack of lies the politicians sell you and speak as if we are doing the worst job ever... when the exact opposite is true: we are doing the best job ever... BUT, you are RIGHT in one aspect: it's not enough. And it never will be. The numbers just don't lie. You will never see anymore of an impact on illegals numbers, due to enforcement, then you have ever seen an impact on speeders, due to enforcement. It's the same logistical game. Too many of them to do anything about. So.... do you keep hiring cops until there is a cop for ever three cars on the road? Or do you install speed bumps?

The facts are that we have never and will never enforce the border with man power. Can't be done. It's not sustainable. You simply can't patrol thousands of square miles of desert forever at the level it takes to be even 50% effective, and ever pay for it. It'll break us in ten years, before even 3 million are gone.

Look, I can't over power your brain from the people who are using you and everyone else to leverage this issue as a tool. But that's what you have to figure out if you want to lead your officials to do something rather than have them lad you on this wild goose chase. Jan Brewer and Joe Arapio and the rest know they can't make a dent in this thing with cops. But they also know that it's a great issue to rattle cages with. The illegals are on the border for a few hours or a day at most, when they cross it. They are on the job EVERY SINGLE DAY at the same plant, dressing chickens. But you guys let these politicos distract you from the chicken plant and look at the border where we can't be effective, never have been in 200 years. We know where these people are and we know how to make them leave.

But go ahead.... elect these people who are going to blow your money on more men and equipment while their campaign donors stand behind the border patrol waving dollar bills at poor people. You will NEVER see results in your lifetime from enforcement any better than you have already seen. We've topped out on reasonable enforcement levels. The only effective thing left is to take the jobs. Why not? It cost us next to nothing. Do yo think we're supposed to keep on with "dare" situation of "if you can make it across the border, you're home free.... cause we won;t touch your boss once you get here..." ? Is that the proposition you want to keep? Cause it's working like 10 pounds of shit in a 5 pound bag.

I agree with you that we should go for the Jobs 100% Wen we catch illegals we should also give them enough punishment to deter them from reentry. Empty the non violent drug offenders from prison and make some room for them! You can't have the same ones getting caught continually. You have to go after these santuaries also. The feds need to go after anyone who abrogates their authority; provides haven for ILLEGALS!

And that's the thing we should get behind. It is the single most effective tool we have.

As far as punishment... again... that is just your revenge or spite reflex kicking in and many people feel the same way. Aside from why you feel that way, you should question what it will cost to punish them. Take their money? They have none. Imprison them? Great... give them 3 hots and a cot and you pay the bill. Again... you aren't thinking. Punishment is futile. You can't punish someone enough to deter them if they were already willing to walk across 150 miles of desert to get here. If we allowed beatings or torture we could inflict punishment that would deter, but as it stands, the most punishment we can dish out amounts to a vacation for poor, hungry people. Even Joe's tents in the desert are satisfactory for these folks. Don't forget, they come from very poor and harsh conditions.

Let me back up and set one prerequisite: you have to be smarter than the illegal. That's the first requirement.

If you take the jobs, the ones here go home, on their own dime AND the rest stop coming soon as they hear that they can't work here anymore. It is literally that simple. The rest of this is just bitter and angry people who see some people poor and defenseless enough to take out some frustrations on. No need for that. We can send them packing without losing our moral standards.

 

[Duped]

No, I did not ignore your question.

We do enforce our laws to the best of our ability. In fact, we have set records the last two years running for enforcing our laws. However, anyone that stops to think for a moment can't help but realize that more enforcement is not going to make the sort of impact you seem to want. If more enforcement could cause you to see vast improvements, you already would have. We have RECORD levels of enforcement and instead of recognizing the monumental efforts we have made and the ton of money we have spent and the best results ever.... instead, you and your ilk swallow the pack of lies the politicians sell you and speak as if we are doing the worst job ever... when the exact opposite is true: we are doing the best job ever... BUT, you are RIGHT in one aspect: it's not enough. And it never will be. The numbers just don't lie. You will never see anymore of an impact on illegals numbers, due to enforcement, then you have ever seen an impact on speeders, due to enforcement. It's the same logistical game. Too many of them to do anything about. So.... do you keep hiring cops until there is a cop for ever three cars on the road? Or do you install speed bumps?

The facts are that we have never and will never enforce the border with man power. Can't be done. It's not sustainable. You simply can't patrol thousands of square miles of desert forever at the level it takes to be even 50% effective, and ever pay for it. It'll break us in ten years, before even 3 million are gone.

Look, I can't over power your brain from the people who are using you and everyone else to leverage this issue as a tool. But that's what you have to figure out if you want to lead your officials to do something rather than have them lad you on this wild goose chase. Jan Brewer and Joe Arapio and the rest know they can't make a dent in this thing with cops. But they also know that it's a great issue to rattle cages with. The illegals are on the border for a few hours or a day at most, when they cross it. They are on the job EVERY SINGLE DAY at the same plant, dressing chickens. But you guys let these politicos distract you from the chicken plant and look at the border where we can't be effective, never have been in 200 years. We know where these people are and we know how to make them leave.

But go ahead.... elect these people who are going to blow your money on more men and equipment while their campaign donors stand behind the border patrol waving dollar bills at poor people. You will NEVER see results in your lifetime from enforcement any better than you have already seen. We've topped out on reasonable enforcement levels. The only effective thing left is to take the jobs. Why not? It cost us next to nothing. Do yo think we're supposed to keep on with "dare" situation of "if you can make it across the border, you're home free.... cause we won;t touch your boss once you get here..." ? Is that the proposition you want to keep? Cause it's working like 10 pounds of shit in a 5 pound bag.

I agree with you that we should go for the Jobs 100% Wen we catch illegals we should also give them enough punishment to deter them from reentry. Empty the non violent drug offenders from prison and make some room for them! You can't have the same ones getting caught continually. You have to go after these santuaries also. The feds need to go after anyone who abrogates their authority; provides haven for ILLEGALS!

And that's the thing we should get behind. It is the single most effective tool we have.

As far as punishment... again... that is just your revenge or spite reflex kicking in and many people feel the same way. Aside from why you feel that way, you should question what it will cost to punish them. Take their money? They have none. Imprison them? Great... give them 3 hots and a cot and you pay the bill. Again... you aren't thinking. Punishment is futile. You can't punish someone enough to deter them if they were already willing to walk across 150 miles of desert to get here. If we allowed beatings or torture we could inflict punishment that would deter, but as it stands, the most punishment we can dish out amounts to a vacation for poor, hungry people. Even Joe's tents in the desert are satisfactory for these folks. Don't forget, they come from very poor and harsh conditions.

Let me back up and set one prerequisite: you have to be smarter than the illegal. That's the first requirement.

If you take the jobs, the ones here go home, on their own dime AND the rest stop coming soon as they hear that they can't work here anymore. It is literally that simple. The rest of this is just bitter and angry people who see some people poor and defenseless enough to take out some frustrations on. No need for that. We can send them packing without losing our moral standards.

It's not revenge for me, it is a deterrent. The truth is that many are flustered - they know
this can't continue but don't know what to do. I'm for all of the above, and refine what gives results.

 

[LilOlLady]

Again, no person – regardless his status – can be compelled to provide identification absent probable cause or reasonable suspicion.



If by ‘profiling’ one means an illegal search, yes; having a ‘foreign accent’ is neither probable cause nor reasonable suspicion. There are natural born American citizens who have accents, citizens born in Puerto Rico, for example. And many naturalized citizens have accents.

Probable cause is a wonderfully elastic term isn't it?

My question therefore remains: Why are legal aliens required to carry their Resident Alien card at all times (it is, I believe, a misdemeanor)? Why not just regular state ID?

The only logical explanation IMO would seem to be that they are required to be able to provide proof that they are in the country legally. Maybe that's too obvious though. These things are never quite as cut and dried as they seem.

Interesting info, BTW. Thanks.

It's not even probable cause needed to ask for ID. It is "reasonable suspicion", which is less than probable cause.

Non citizens may well be required to have an ID on them, but the problem is, how do you go about enforcing people to produce this ID without stepping on citizens rights who DO NOT have to carry ID or produce it? So... what is the procedure for when a guy maybe looks a certain way, so the town cop now has a state mandate to check his status, but the guy was born in East LA and doesn't have a green card AND he has no license or ID, which is perfectly legal as an American citizen?

Just isn't anyway around the situation without stepping all over the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. There are multiple adverse effects on the right to freedom of travel and the right against illegal searches.

Fact is, none of this is needed if we had the balls to go after the corporations and millionaires that hire these people. But as always, it is nearly impossible to do anything meaningful against people who can afford large campaign contributions.

If you are wearing a sombero, huarche sandals and a serape with a group that look like the just crossed the border. That is reasonable suspicion. And I saw this happen to a group walking down the street and was loaded into a paddy wagon. Holcomb street in Reno. But that seldom happens. They are only asked doing a traffic violation or crime and them turned over to ICE who release them?
I asked myself. WTF were they thinking? Looking like illegal aliens. You rob a bank wearing a red hat, fool you ditch the red hat asap.

 

[tigerbob]

It's not even probable cause needed to ask for ID. It is "reasonable suspicion", which is less than probable cause.

Non citizens may well be required to have an ID on them, but the problem is, how do you go about enforcing people to produce this ID without stepping on citizens rights who DO NOT have to carry ID or produce it? So... what is the procedure for when a guy maybe looks a certain way, so the town cop now has a state mandate to check his status, but the guy was born in East LA and doesn't have a green card AND he has no license or ID, which is perfectly legal as an American citizen?

Just isn't anyway around the situation without stepping all over the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. There are multiple adverse effects on the right to freedom of travel and the right against illegal searches.

Fact is, none of this is needed if we had the balls to go after the corporations and millionaires that hire these people. But as always, it is nearly impossible to do anything meaningful against people who can afford large campaign contributions.

I agree broadly speaking, though I don't think that going after the corporations solves the issue. It helps, but it's not the be all and end all.

NO one is stopping jose and maria on the street asking for their id.

Yes, I know. Hence my caveat.

 

[Sweet Willy]

Probable cause is a wonderfully elastic term isn't it?

My question therefore remains: Why are legal aliens required to carry their Resident Alien card at all times (it is, I believe, a misdemeanor)? Why not just regular state ID?

The only logical explanation IMO would seem to be that they are required to be able to provide proof that they are in the country legally. Maybe that's too obvious though. These things are never quite as cut and dried as they seem.

Interesting info, BTW. Thanks.

It's not even probable cause needed to ask for ID. It is "reasonable suspicion", which is less than probable cause.

Non citizens may well be required to have an ID on them, but the problem is, how do you go about enforcing people to produce this ID without stepping on citizens rights who DO NOT have to carry ID or produce it? So... what is the procedure for when a guy maybe looks a certain way, so the town cop now has a state mandate to check his status, but the guy was born in East LA and doesn't have a green card AND he has no license or ID, which is perfectly legal as an American citizen?

Just isn't anyway around the situation without stepping all over the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. There are multiple adverse effects on the right to freedom of travel and the right against illegal searches.

Fact is, none of this is needed if we had the balls to go after the corporations and millionaires that hire these people. But as always, it is nearly impossible to do anything meaningful against people who can afford large campaign contributions.

If you are wearing a sombero, huarche sandals and a serape with a group that look like the just crossed the border. That is reasonable suspicion. And I saw this happen to a group walking down the street and was loaded into a paddy wagon. Holcomb street in Reno. But that seldom happens. They are only asked doing a traffic violation or crime and them turned over to ICE who release them?
I asked myself. WTF were they thinking? Looking like illegal aliens. You rob a bank wearing a red hat, fool you ditch the red hat asap.

No, the clothes you wear are not adequate for reasonable suspicion. If that were the case, we would also be able to question everyone wearing a suit and tie and loafers... because we all know that's what white collar criminals look like. And everyone wearing a "wife beater" t shirt can be questioned for obvious reasons. And if you're black... well, we all know what that means, right?

You have NO CLUE what you are talking about Lil Ol Lady. There is no way to know what "looks like you just crossed the border" actually looks like. Could I cross the border in a jogging suit? Could I cross the border in a military uniform? Could I cross the border in swim trunks and with a snorkel?

Clothing and "looks like" does not pass the standard for articulate reasonable suspicion. Not even close. The kind of clothes you wear are in no way reasonable to show you may have been involved in a crime.

Not to mention that only stupid assholes think that Hispanics actually wear sombreros and serapes. They wear jeans and t shirts, just like most common working people do. Kind of tells us reasonable folks where you are with this. Seek therapy.