Our founding fathers were not conservative

[theDoctorisIn]

I wonder if Our Founding Fathers enjoyed Ice Cream?

 

[Agit8r]

Provide the link.

You know Thomas Paine suggested both a progressive income tax, and Social Security, right?

That's a talking pointless.

I want you to provide the link to the THREAD in which you allegedly did your job.

i'll assume you are responding to me

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...g-father-american-revolutionary-quotes-4.html

 

[Flopper]

There is no doubt that the founding fathers were liberals. If not, we would be speaking with a British accent. For the most part they were afraid of political parties fearing that they would divide the government and make it totally ineffective. There was only one party, the Federalist who controlled the government till 1801. The Democratic Republican Party came on the scene in 1788.

There is really little resemblance to either of our political party. The founders on these parties would be horrified at the political parties of today. For the most part, the founders were well to do planters and businessmen, isolationist who's primary interest was economic freedom from the British. The only freedom they were really interested in was their own freedom. They owned slaves or were for most supported slavery. They were not particularly religions and would not have agreed that the United States was founded as a Christian Nation. Many of the founders believed that the government should be controlled by the landowners and were against the popular vote.

 

[rikules]

there, I said it. Feel free to prove me wrong with empirical fact. go on

i don't think it is fair to use the modern meanings of two such contentious terms in connection with our "forefathers"

"liberal" and "conservative" have MANY VARIED meanings through-out our society

when I think "liberal" I think FREEDOM, LIBERTY, PROGRESS

when glenn beck thinks "liberal" he thinks "HATES GOD, HATES FREEDOM, HATES America"

our forefathers were FREEDOM loving individualists who were willing to stand up to repressive tyranny.

I believe MANY conservatives AND liberals of today would do the very same thing.

 

[Agit8r]

There is no doubt that the founding fathers were liberals. If not, we would be speaking with a British accent. For the most part they were afraid of political parties fearing that they would divide the government and make it totally ineffective. There was only one party, the Federalist who controlled the government till 1801. The Democratic Republican Party came on the scene in 1788.

There is really little resemblance to either of our political party. The founders on these parties would be horrified at the political parties of today. For the most part, the founders were well to do planters and businessmen, isolationist who's primary interest was economic freedom from the British. The only freedom they were really interested in was their own freedom. They owned slaves or were for most supported slavery. They were not particularly religions and would not have agreed that the United States was founded as a Christian Nation. Many of the founders believed that the government should be controlled by the landowners and were against the popular vote.

the part about slavery is only partly true. take for instance James Madison's support for "colonization"

http://www.constitution.org/jm/18190615_evans.htm

sentiments echoed by Jefferson as well:

Rights of Mankind (1789-Present): States Rights...? Originalist?!

 

[Flopper]

There is no doubt that the founding fathers were liberals. If not, we would be speaking with a British accent. For the most part they were afraid of political parties fearing that they would divide the government and make it totally ineffective. There was only one party, the Federalist who controlled the government till 1801. The Democratic Republican Party came on the scene in 1788.

There is really little resemblance to either of our political party. The founders on these parties would be horrified at the political parties of today. For the most part, the founders were well to do planters and businessmen, isolationist who's primary interest was economic freedom from the British. The only freedom they were really interested in was their own freedom. They owned slaves or were for most supported slavery. They were not particularly religions and would not have agreed that the United States was founded as a Christian Nation. Many of the founders believed that the government should be controlled by the landowners and were against the popular vote.

the part about slavery is only partly true. take for instance James Madison's support for "colonization"

http://www.constitution.org/jm/18190615_evans.htm

sentiments echoed by Jefferson as well:

Rights of Mankind (1789-Present): States Rights...? Originalist?!

Jefferson and Washington were slave owners as well as a number of other. Most of the founders accepted slavery and did not oppose it. Exceptions were Franklin and Adams who took a strong stand against slavery and supported freeing the slaves. Madison was against slavery but did not feel they should be freed in the US but rather sent back to Africa.

I think we were a bit hypocritical when we we prided ourselves as the land of free while thousands were slaves. The land of bondage might have been more appropriate.

 

[JBeukema]

No it doesn't. When it comes to tyranny, it doesn't take "radicals" to rise against it. It takes people who believe they are obligated to fight tyranny, and liberals don't have a monopoly on that. In fact, they don't even have a place in that.

conservative: favouring the status quo or a return to the status quo ante


they were called tories or loyalists

 

[JBeukema]

No it doesn't. When it comes to tyranny, it doesn't take "radicals" to rise against it. It takes people who believe they are obligated to fight tyranny, and liberals don't have a monopoly on that. In fact, they don't even have a place in that.

your stupidity is astounding

 

[JBeukema]

Well, let's think it through.

The fundamental values espoused by the Founders and Framers when it comes to government is in line with the thinking of today's conservatives.

The liberals reject the Founders' and Framers' notions of the proper role of government, by and large.

So, if it's true that in their day the Founders were not "conservatives," it's also true that in our day they would be anything but "liberals."

Actually, they were mostly Liberals. They damn near copied Locke word-for-word in some of their writings.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Liberals tell us the founders rejected the notion that we were a powerless nation ruled by a foreign Monarch -- so we could become a nation of sock puppets ruled by Washington DC

 

[California Girl]

No it doesn't. When it comes to tyranny, it doesn't take "radicals" to rise against it. It takes people who believe they are obligated to fight tyranny, and liberals don't have a monopoly on that. In fact, they don't even have a place in that.

conservative: favouring the status quo or a return to the status quo ante


they were called tories or loyalists

Conservative: favoring traditional views or values.

Glib one liners don't actually add value.

 

[California Girl]

Y'all realize that the founders were individuals, right? A bunch of different people, with different ideas and different politics who came together to found the greatest nation on earth. Instead of trying to pretend they were all one thing or another, perhaps you should pay them the respect they are due.

 

[code1211]

there, I said it. Feel free to prove me wrong with empirical fact. go on

They might not have been Conservative, but they were very committed to the power of the States and the restraint of the power of the Feds and they were against taxation. They went to war over the tax on a breakfast beverage.

They seemed to be pretty committed to the ideas of rights endowed by a creator,
gun ownership,
personal property and property rights,
limiting court awarded penalties and reserving to either the people or the States any rights not specifically assigned to the Feds.

All of these things are currently opposed by the Libs. According to the text of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, if these guys were not Conservatives, they put in a bunch of effort ot hide that fact form their contemporaries.

Must have been Closet Liberals.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

The Founding Fathers fought for: Government run health care, government takeover and control of the horse and buggy industry, federal government control of the banks and 2 year unemployment insurance; it's all right there in Constitution 2.0, the Living, Breathing Liberal Constitution

 

[bigrebnc1775]

there, I said it. Feel free to prove me wrong with empirical fact. go on

They obviously weren't conservative. They were revolutionaries, which makes them radicals.

“Lest we forget at least an over-the-shoulder acknowledgment to the very first radical: from all our legends, mythology, and history... the first radical known to man who rebelled against the establishment and did it so effectively that he at least won his own kingdom — Lucifer.” Saul Alinsky

 

[code1211]

there, I said it. Feel free to prove me wrong with empirical fact. go on

Why don't you do your job and prove your point?

In the founding/revolutionary quote thread i provided around 30 very telling quotes that proved conclusively that the ideas of the organizer of the Boston Tea Party (Sam Adams), the author of Common Sense (Tom Paine), the author of the Declaration of Independence (Tom Jefferson) and the Author of our Bill of Rights (Jemmy Madison) were significantly at variance with the fundamental (as well as many petty) talking points of modern conservatism. I did my job

In my few years of drawing breath, I've found that talk is cheap and deeds are precious to echo ol' Ross P.

Show me the laws these folks passed to support your thesis. Start with the Constitution and continue on through the Bill of Rights.

The individuals were all really bright folks, but it is not their individual work that produced the USA, it is their combined and blended ideas of justice in the spirit of comprimise and accord that produced the Declaration, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

Those years of creation were magic. There have been very few instances when a collection of geniuses gathered at the particular place and time at the crossroads of history to intentionally make a thing that is better than anything that came before.

Their bias and parochialism is evidenced in every word they wrote, but so are their ideals and their goals.

By the standards of today, these guys (old, white guys) were very, very Conservative.

 

[code1211]

In the founding/revolutionary quote thread i provided around 30 very telling quotes that proved conclusively that the ideas of the organizer of the Boston Tea Party (Sam Adams), the author of Common Sense (Tom Paine), the author of the Declaration of Independence (Tom Jefferson) and the Author of our Bill of Rights (Jemmy Madison) were significantly at variance with the fundamental (as well as many petty) talking points of modern conservatism. I did my job

Provide the link.

You know Thomas Paine suggested both a progressive income tax, and Social Security, right?

Thomas Paine was expelled from the United States after the Revolution by the Founding Fathers.

 

[code1211]

There is no doubt that the founding fathers were liberals. If not, we would be speaking with a British accent. For the most part they were afraid of political parties fearing that they would divide the government and make it totally ineffective. There was only one party, the Federalist who controlled the government till 1801. The Democratic Republican Party came on the scene in 1788.

There is really little resemblance to either of our political party. The founders on these parties would be horrified at the political parties of today. For the most part, the founders were well to do planters and businessmen, isolationist who's primary interest was economic freedom from the British. The only freedom they were really interested in was their own freedom. They owned slaves or were for most supported slavery. They were not particularly religions and would not have agreed that the United States was founded as a Christian Nation. Many of the founders believed that the government should be controlled by the landowners and were against the popular vote.

I was going to argue with your point, but you seem to be doing fine on your own.

 

[California Girl]

At the risk of repeating myself.... it is ridiculous to compare the beliefs of the founders to either 'liberals' or 'conservatives' as we understand those terms today.

The founders were individuals. Fact. They didn't all think alike. Fact. Y'all look like fools arguing this shit. Fact.

 

[editec]

there, I said it. Feel free to prove me wrong with empirical fact. go on

Trying to shoehorn 18th century politicians into the insane definitions we currently use when we say "conservative" or "liberal" is always an exercise in futility.

Given that we have completely distorted the means of those (from a political science standpoint) these debates are a waste of time.