Orthodox Jews and Zionism

[irosie91]

You know, talking about the Q'uran and hadiths, etc., in the context of the Palestine/Israeli conflict is mysterious to me. It rarely happened 40 years ago, not even sure how often it happens now....


emity -----what rarely happened 40 years ago? Talking about the Koran?-----
no one talked about the Koran 40 years ago------on the INTERNET?------you
had access to the internet 40 years ago? I do agree that people in the US
did not talk much about the Koran 40 years ago-----I read it about 45 years ago---
but most of the muslims I knew never actually read it (of course I read an English
translation). Want a funny story?----I read the Koran and decided my copy must
be a MISPRINT because it recounted biblical stories with LOTS OF MISTAKES---
so I decided to give my copy to a muslim I knew (Pakistani) --and urge him
to report the mistakes to the publisher. He took a look at the book and said---"no---
this is fine" (picthall) There is no way to understand the situation in the
middle east without knowing something about islam

 

[Picaro]

Nobody is defending those who do. Here again, your mentality is so xenophobic that everytime something like this happens you "the Palestinians did it." Its that collective punishment mentality.

We're waiting on all those alleged 'moderates' to make themselves known; apparently they don't exist. We've been waiting for something like 14 centuries.

You forget that in the UK we are more conservative and can read the Koran and hadiths, and we can question the verses that call for mass murder, violence, theft and rape without being seen as racists. So we see what the Palestinians are saying and doing and tie that in with what the Koran and hadiths are preaching and see the violence and bloodshed now endemic within islam. We see the likes of you spreading your ISLAMONAZI LIES AND PROPAGANDA and denying your religious affiliations under kithman and taqiya, defending the violent, criminally insane Palestinian terrorists

I've owned an excellent translation of the Koran since my college days and courses in comparative religion; the M. Pickthall translations. I'm aware of the abrogation practice as well as taqqiya and kithman commandments.

I'm also convinced Islam is not a religion, just a psychotic homocidal political ideology based on reading the Koran. Any culture that uses children as the 'Palestinians' do is not a culture that can be reformed or changed without eliminating Islam from it entirely. Just as sociopathic and degenerate are those in the western media and faux' Peace Left' who support them and defend them. The latter are even worse, as they aren't subjected to living under Islamic psychosis and brainwashing.

 

[aris2chat]

You know, talking about the Q'uran and hadiths, etc., in the context of the Palestine/Israeli conflict is mysterious to me. It rarely happened 40 years ago, not even sure how often it happens now....


emity -----what rarely happened 40 years ago? Talking about the Koran?-----
no one talked about the Koran 40 years ago------on the INTERNET?------you
had access to the internet 40 years ago? I do agree that people in the US
did not talk much about the Koran 40 years ago-----I read it about 45 years ago---
but most of the muslims I knew never actually read it (of course I read an English
translation). Want a funny story?----I read the Koran and decided my copy must
be a MISPRINT because it recounted biblical stories with LOTS OF MISTAKES---
so I decided to give my copy to a muslim I knew (Pakistani) --and urge him
to report the mistakes to the publisher. He took a look at the book and said---"no---
this is fine" (picthall) There is no way to understand the situation in the
middle east without knowing something about islam

Government, science and university but not the general public till 25 yrs ago.

 

[Billo_Really]

That's what you are saying.

I just wanted to clarify Coyote's stance. Not yours.

You were clear. Even if you don't understand much of what I said about the reversal of your Goebbels 101.

I understand it didn't make any sense and since you won't explain it in more detail, I'm probably right!

 

[Ropey]

Not only is the comparison misplaced but also Billo uses Joseph Goebbels (who was the creator of the propaganda and disinformation tactics of the Nazi's) when comparing Israel and the Territories to prewar Germany.

So, he's just doing what the Palestinians do when they say that the Jews are attacking themselves to make it appear that the Palestinians are involved.

I know one thing. These Palestinians who are Israeli citizens don't want to leave Israel even if/when there are land swaps.

I also know that to equate Nazi Germany pre-wwII and Israel/Gaza is disinformation.

The disinformation Goebbels used was that the Jews were going to take over Germany. The Palestinians attack Israel and say that Israel wants to take them over.

While they could have had their own state and partition in 1948.

Now they have a dream and a fight.

A fight. Not a slaughter. Goebbels 101

A fight in which both Egypt and Jordan have made peace but the rest of the Arab states have not and remain fighting and as Syria is still in a state of war with Israel (just re-declared a while ago) it's important to maintain a security with Lebanon, Syria and Both the outlying areas of Egypt and Jordan where the Palestinian's various militias have their military organizations also spread out.

It's a fight from declared war and the disinformation is that it's not a fight, it's a holocaust.

Hmmm... reversal of the Billo statement of Israel using Goebbell's strategy on the Palestinians.

But that's ok. Billo isn't as bad as Goebells just as Israel isn't as bad as the Nazis.

/sarcasm off

That's what you are saying.

I just wanted to clarify Coyote's stance. Not yours.

You were clear. Even if you don't understand much of what I said about the reversal of your Goebbels 101.

I understand it didn't make any sense and since you won't explain it in more detail, I'm probably right!

Keep your probabilities and see my post above.

 

[Billo_Really]

Keep your probabilities and see my post above.

Goebbels was responsible for state sanctioned propaganda. Propaganda that trashed the Jews 24/7. That propaganda covered all forms of media and was specifically used to mis-inform the general population that the Jews were this mythical threat to the country's security.

Now fast forward to today and you got the same propaganda going on, only with a different target.........Palestinian's. And the big mis-information myth, is that Palestinian's want to drive Israel into the sea; want to kill all the Jews; are taught this by their religion; and of coarse, they're a threat to the country's security.

And you keep repeating this bullshit over and over with the hopes that one day it will become true.

Now, about what you said...

So, he's just doing what the Palestinians do when they say that the Jews are attacking themselves to make it appear that the Palestinians are involved.

...that statement makes no sense, because:

• I wasn't talking about what Palestinian's do, I was talking about what the Israeli's do
• I didn't say anything about Jews attacking themselves....huh?
• Who the fuck are "themselves"? The Jews? The Palestinian's? The French?
• "...to make it appear that the Palestinian's are involved."

If the Palestinian's are attacked, how could they not be involved?

Like I said, that statement made no sense!

The disinformation Goebbels used was that the Jews were going to take over Germany.

The disinformation here is Israeli propaganda saying the Pals want to drive the Jews into the sea. Which is really a joke, when you think about it. They're a population under occupation of a foreign force. If they don't have the military muscle to end the occupation, then they certainly don't have enough of that muscle to drive the most militarized country on the planet, into the sea.

The Palestinians attack Israel and say that Israel wants to take them over.

And this is just a lie. The occupation has been going on a lot longer than the rocket attacks. The occupation started 34 years before the rocket attacks began, so the Palestinian's did not "attack" Israel, they "responded" to the occupation after 34 years.

An occupational force cannot claim self defense.

 

[Ropey]

Here's the thing Billo. You want me to discuss that the Israeli want the land the Palestinians are on but they were willing and signed to agree to let them have that land and even more in 1948.

Since then, the Palestinian cause has been hijacked by those who don't want Israel there.

You're one of those and you use the same format of a reversal that Goebbells used with the Jews of Germany.

The disinformation Goebbels used was that the Jews were going to take over Germany.

You cut the context out.

The disinformation Goebbels used was that the Jews were going to take over Germany. The Palestinians attack Israel and say that Israel wants to take them over.

There we are.

 

[Coyote]

Ok boys....lets get back on topic....ok? Or, kind of close to it anyway

I can't find the topic----I looked----but there are more than 200 posts-----
I gave up. topic???? anyone.... TOPIC?????
...,,,lets play NAME THE TOPIC .........

Rosie...just sit back, relax and read the posts...you can have some of my popcorn

 

[MHunterB]

The topic doesn't exist: as was explained many pages ago, those people being quoted were not part of the Orthodox movement, nor part of mainstream normative Judaism of any movement.

So whatever they have to say is not representative of actual Judaism as ever practiced (which is 'authentic' Judaism) - and in fact is liable to be heretical since that is the issue over which the Hasidim were initially 'excommunicated' (something which Judaism has only done on exceedingly rare occasions).

What fascinates me is, these are people who are willing to persecute gays and restrict the rights of women - just how does that fit in with the pseudo-egalitarian 'standards' of the so-claimed 'progressives' who champion everyone who attacks Zionism?

There is evidently some cognitive dissonance involved....

 

[Coyote]

The topic doesn't exist: as was explained many pages ago, those people being quoted were not part of the Orthodox movement, nor part of mainstream normative Judaism of any movement.

So whatever they have to say is not representative of actual Judaism as ever practiced (which is 'authentic' Judaism) - and in fact is liable to be heretical since that is the issue over which the Hasidim were initially 'excommunicated' (something which Judaism has only done on exceedingly rare occasions).

What fascinates me is, these are people who are willing to persecute gays and restrict the rights of women - just how does that fit in with the pseudo-egalitarian 'standards' of the so-claimed 'progressives' who champion everyone who attacks Zionism?

There is evidently some cognitive dissonance involved....

Maybe they don't "champion everyone who attacks Zionism" but rather, the rights of every people to self determination and a homeland?

That might be what it comes down to...not just "attacking Zionism", or basing the right to self determination on other rights. They are seperate.

 

[MHunterB]

The topic doesn't exist: as was explained many pages ago, those people being quoted were not part of the Orthodox movement, nor part of mainstream normative Judaism of any movement.

So whatever they have to say is not representative of actual Judaism as ever practiced (which is 'authentic' Judaism) - and in fact is liable to be heretical since that is the issue over which the Hasidim were initially 'excommunicated' (something which Judaism has only done on exceedingly rare occasions).

What fascinates me is, these are people who are willing to persecute gays and restrict the rights of women - just how does that fit in with the pseudo-egalitarian 'standards' of the so-claimed 'progressives' who champion everyone who attacks Zionism?

There is evidently some cognitive dissonance involved....

Maybe they don't "champion everyone who attacks Zionism" but rather, the rights of every people to self determination and a homeland?

That might be what it comes down to...not just "attacking Zionism", or basing the right to self determination on other rights. They are seperate.

Have I been denying that the Palestinians have a right to their homeland? Is that an inherent concept of Zionism? NO, and NO. I've tried to make that very clear, but still Hadassah is being condemned simply because it's a Zionist organization.

So NO, that isn't what's been going on around here lately. It hasn't been about the Palestinians or what they need or want or should have, not at all. Would that it were!