"Opt Out" Scam Debunked

Anyone read Reid's 1500 page bill yet? The one he won't post. Why not let us read what is so imporant and helpful to the American people?

Mr. Obama, I want you to veto this, if any pork is in the bill or it costs over $900b. with ALL costs included.

Mz. Pelosi, 1900 pages? Really? Doesn't that scream over regulation and expensive?

it is comprehensive....spelling out concisely, everything.

this is what i have problems with...i personally would have prefered a summary before each provision or a summary of all provisions without all of the gobbledy gook that is necessary for spelling out the t's being crossed and the i's being dotted....but then there would have been complaints of hiding something....

i want someone to give me a summary of where any savings are made in all of these bills...congress should have that at their fingertips imo...
 
Grubby Harry Reid's "opt out" provision works the same way you can "opt out" of sending your kids to gubmint schools.

You can send your kids to the private school all you want, but you don't get to opt out of the taxes to pay for everyone who opts into the gubmint schools.

How many states will fall for that?


Page 94, Pelosi plan: "Prohibits the sale of private individual health insurance policies, beginning in 2013, forcing individuals to purchase coverage through the federal government." In 2013, after the 2012 presidential election. In 2013, there is no private insurance allowed. The sale of it will be prohibited.

SOURCE

Alot of it is highlighted. Good Thread, Dude.

and people wonder why those who work for insurance companies are against the bill
 
Anyone read Reid's 1500 page bill yet? The one he won't post. Why not let us read what is so imporant and helpful to the American people?

Mr. Obama, I want you to veto this, if any pork is in the bill or it costs over $900b. with ALL costs included.

Mz. Pelosi, 1900 pages? Really? Doesn't that scream over regulation and expensive?

it is comprehensive....spelling out concisely, everything.

this is what i have problems with...i personally would have prefered a summary before each provision or a summary of all provisions without all of the gobbledy gook that is necessary for spelling out the t's being crossed and the i's being dotted....but then there would have been complaints of hiding something....

i want someone to give me a summary of where any savings are made in all of these bills...congress should have that at their fingertips imo...

I disagree. It is comprehensive to hide the concise intent. Single payer in ten years or less.
 
toomuchtime said:
If Obama and Pelosi wanted to lower health insurance premiums, all they would have to do is use the same authority they are invoking to tell insurance companies what kind of policies they must sell and limit the company's right to raise premiums to tell insurance companies they they cannot pay providers any more than Medicare does. If they passed such a law premiums would go down without any public option and if they don't legislate lower compensation for providers, premiums will not go down even if there is a public option.

That would be the "trigger option," which is what will finally be passed, trust me.

toomuchtime said:
However, while Obama and Pelosi thought their supporters were stupid enough to believe the lie about insurance companies' "obscene" 3.5% profits being the cause of high insurance premiums, they were not stupid enough to believe it themselves, and that's why Pelosi and the other liberal Dems fought so hard to tie the public option's rates to Medicare, because they understood that if they didn't do that, the public option would not be able to offer lower rates.

Regarding private health insurance, employer based plans are going to be dramatically changed to the detriment of the employee starting in December when those plans will all be up for renewal for the following year. Those plans will be increasing the employer portion of the premium by as much as a whopping 10%, plus a heftier co-pay and/or deductible option. So if you think private insurance carriers aren't gearing up to screw its members even further, then you're not paying attention.

Obama's biggest campaign promise was health care reform, which a majority of ALL AMERICANS wanted (and I can post ALL the polling data again, if you wish), and a great number of that majority wanted "universal" care. That ultimately became an expected sticking point, and therefore the House and Senate spent nearly six months developing other alternatives. There was no way in hell that Obama (or Pelosi or Reid) were just going to throw in the towel. Again.

The trigger option would not force insurance companies to pay no more than Medicare rates; the most robust trigger option being contemplated would only set up a public option that would pay Medicare rates, and if it is not accompanied by coercive legislation to force health care providers to accept those rates, it is unclear it will have any effect on health care premiums beyond a relatively small number of individual policy holders.

Again, if Obama and Pelosi really wanted to reduce health insurance premiums, they would try to pass legislation that would force all insurance companies to pay no more than Medicare rates to health care providers instead of lying to the American people about the "obscene" 3.5% profit health insurers make being the cause of the high cost of health insurance. Without such coercive legislation a public option is no more than a political ploy and an ideological gesture that has nothing to do with lowering health insurance premiums or otherwise improving health care for the American people.

As for insurance companies getting ready to screw workers, get a clue. It's the employer, and sometimes the union, that decides what kind of coverage the worker gets and what it will cost him/her, not the insurance companies. Insurance companies compete for the sale by trying to give the employer what it wants at a price it is willing to pay. If Obama and Pelosi really wanted to see health insurers become more responsive to the needs of workers, they would try to amend ERISA as Senator Wyden has urged so that workers would be able to choose the company plan or a voucher to shop for their own individual plans; then insurers would be competing to try to give workers the insurance coverage they want at a price they are willing to pay, but under what is by default the Obama-Pelosi plan, insurers will go on trying to please the employer and ignoring the needs of the workers since under the Obama-Pelosi plan, workers have no say in determining what kind of health insurance coverage they will have or what it will cost. What kind of health care reform is that?

It is important to distinguish between affordable access to health care and affordable access to health insurance. When one considers the large numbers of free and sliding scale federally funded and privately funded clinics everywhere in the US that already provide comprehensive medical and dental care based on your ability to pay, the US already has nearly universal access to affordable health care. The bills being considered by Congress aim to increase affordable access to health insurance, but as Diane Feinstein worried, some of the cost cutting measures in these bills may actually reduce funding for these clinics and as several studies have warned some measures may cause health insurance premiums to increase more rapidly, perhaps forcing some to drop their health insurance, it is not clear if these bills will increase or decrease affordable access to health care.
 
Grubby Harry Reid's "opt out" provision works the same way you can "opt out" of sending your kids to gubmint schools.

You can send your kids to the private school all you want, but you don't get to opt out of the taxes to pay for everyone who opts into the gubmint schools.

How many states will fall for that?


Page 94, Pelosi plan: "Prohibits the sale of private individual health insurance policies, beginning in 2013, forcing individuals to purchase coverage through the federal government." In 2013, after the 2012 presidential election. In 2013, there is no private insurance allowed. The sale of it will be prohibited.

SOURCE

Alot of it is highlighted. Good Thread, Dude.
Limbaugh is lying.
 
Grubby Harry Reid's "opt out" provision works the same way you can "opt out" of sending your kids to gubmint schools.

You can send your kids to the private school all you want, but you don't get to opt out of the taxes to pay for everyone who opts into the gubmint schools.

How many states will fall for that?


Page 94, Pelosi plan: "Prohibits the sale of private individual health insurance policies, beginning in 2013, forcing individuals to purchase coverage through the federal government." In 2013, after the 2012 presidential election. In 2013, there is no private insurance allowed. The sale of it will be prohibited.

SOURCE

Alot of it is highlighted. Good Thread, Dude.
Limbaugh is lying.

Although I suspect you may be right, I would like to see some evidence to that. Have you got any?

I have read other bills that clearly show intent to wipe out the insurance industry and to force all of us into the Public Option which will become a single payer plan. Those that cannot see that preventing insurance companies from selling new policies (not approved by the government) and competing in the open market will destroy the industry are either blind or stupid.

What proof do you have that Pelosi's plan does not prohibit the sale of private individual health insurance in 2013? I suspect what Pelosi's plan really does is eliminate the ability of private insurers to sell plans. In other words, puts such outrageous restrictions on the plans (thus eliminating our choices) that any private insurer that "survives" will be nothing more than a shell of the Public Option.

Immie
 
Last edited:
Page 94, Pelosi plan: "Prohibits the sale of private individual health insurance policies, beginning in 2013, forcing individuals to purchase coverage through the federal government." In 2013, after the 2012 presidential election. In 2013, there is no private insurance allowed. The sale of it will be prohibited.

SOURCE

Alot of it is highlighted. Good Thread, Dude.
Limbaugh is lying.

Although I suspect you may be right, I would like to see some evidence to that. Have you got any?

I have read other bills that clearly show intent to wipe out the insurance industry and to force all of us into the Public Option which will become a single payer plan. Those that cannot see that preventing insurance companies from selling new policies (not approved by the government) and competing in the open market will destroy the industry are either blind or stupid.

What proof do you have that Pelosi's plan does not prohibit the sale of private individual health insurance in 2013? I suspect what Pelosi's plan really does is eliminate the ability of private insurers to sell plans. In other words, puts such outrageous restrictions on the plans (thus eliminating our choices) that any private insurer that "survives" will be nothing more than a shell of the Public Option.

Immie
Limbaugh falsely claimed House bill "prohibits the sale" of private individual insurance | Media Matters for America

There's a link on there also to the entire bill.
 
Limbaugh is lying.

Although I suspect you may be right, I would like to see some evidence to that. Have you got any?

I have read other bills that clearly show intent to wipe out the insurance industry and to force all of us into the Public Option which will become a single payer plan. Those that cannot see that preventing insurance companies from selling new policies (not approved by the government) and competing in the open market will destroy the industry are either blind or stupid.

What proof do you have that Pelosi's plan does not prohibit the sale of private individual health insurance in 2013? I suspect what Pelosi's plan really does is eliminate the ability of private insurers to sell plans. In other words, puts such outrageous restrictions on the plans (thus eliminating our choices) that any private insurer that "survives" will be nothing more than a shell of the Public Option.

Immie
Limbaugh falsely claimed House bill "prohibits the sale" of private individual insurance | Media Matters for America

There's a link on there also to the entire bill.

media matters? LOL what a fuckin' LAUGH. Limbaugh quoted the Fuckin' BILL you DOPE.
 
Although I suspect you may be right, I would like to see some evidence to that. Have you got any?

I have read other bills that clearly show intent to wipe out the insurance industry and to force all of us into the Public Option which will become a single payer plan. Those that cannot see that preventing insurance companies from selling new policies (not approved by the government) and competing in the open market will destroy the industry are either blind or stupid.

What proof do you have that Pelosi's plan does not prohibit the sale of private individual health insurance in 2013? I suspect what Pelosi's plan really does is eliminate the ability of private insurers to sell plans. In other words, puts such outrageous restrictions on the plans (thus eliminating our choices) that any private insurer that "survives" will be nothing more than a shell of the Public Option.

Immie
Limbaugh falsely claimed House bill "prohibits the sale" of private individual insurance | Media Matters for America

There's a link on there also to the entire bill.

media matters? LOL what a fuckin' LAUGH. Limbaugh quoted the Fuckin' BILL you DOPE.
No he didn't...which is why I said he was lying.

The bill is linked at the site I posted, you can read it for yourself but I doubt you will.
 
toomuchtime said:
As for insurance companies getting ready to screw workers, get a clue. It's the employer, and sometimes the union, that decides what kind of coverage the worker gets and what it will cost him/her, not the insurance companies. Insurance companies compete for the sale by trying to give the employer what it wants at a price it is willing to pay.


All I know is what I hear, which doesn't look good for employees who don't stay right on top of their employer-sponsored health care.

CNN.com/transcripts -- House Call, 10/31/09:

GUPTA: We are back with HOUSE CALL. You know, for a lot of us with employer-sponsored health insurance, including myself, late fall is when we start to sign up for a new health insurance plan. But for some of us, the whole process is going to be different for 2010 and we got the best in the business, personal finance editor Gerri Willis to help talk us through it. And you know, I haven't been able to go to the meetings yet, describing, explaining some of this. I know you have, but it is confusing. What changes are we talking about here?

GERRI WILLIS, CNN PERSONAL FINANCE EDITOR: Yes. Hey there, Sanjay.

We've been studying this for a couple of weeks now and big surprise: your costs are going to go up as employers ship more of the health care cost burden onto our shoulders. Next year, you can expect to pay 10 percent more, that's $4,000, including co-pays and premiums. About 10 percent of employers will drop you from their health care plan if you don't ...

GUPTA: Wow.

WILLIS: ...participate in open enrollment. Previously, if you didn't make a decision, they just simply default you into last year's option. But this year, if you don't choose, you're going to be penalized.

Another new trend this year: companies are increasingly doing away with co-pays and introducing co-insurance. Co-insurance is the percentage a patient pays for a medical service generally after a planned deductible is met and it can vary by plan. And this is a big deal, Sanjay. A co-pay may cost you 25 bucks, right, but the average doctor's appointment or emergency room visit could run you 500 bucks or more.

Now, if your plan is moving towards co-insurance, make sure you call your doctors and find out what the average visit costs you without insurance so that you can figure out how much money you're going to be on the hook for. Employers are increasingly auditing who you cover under your health insurance plan to make sure your health plan doesn't cover people who are ineligible. And if your spouse is on a health plan but has other insurance options available, you could be paying more in premiums.

So, not a lot of good news here, Sanjay.

GUPTA: I know. When my most recent child was born, I had to show a lot of documentation to make sure that I get her on our exiting plan. So, it's pretty frightening, this idea that people could be dropped as well if they don't sign up. I hope a lot of people paid attention to what you were say there.

What -- you're famous for your tips. So, what are some of the best choices that we could possibly make this year for open enrollment?

WILLIS: Well, here's how you come to your decision about what plan you're going to choose. Look at the coverage you had last year. How much did you spend on co-pays and out-of-pocket costs. Did you see any doctors that were out of network for your plan? How long did your flexible spending account last? Now, most companies, they offer actual tools online that can help you analyze your health claims from last year. Ask if your company has this kind of estimator and make sure you take advantage of flexible spending accounts. This lets employees set aside pretax wages for certain medical expenses not covered by insurance. You have to use the money in that year or you lose it.

So, make sure you follow the guidelines. Again, this is not an easy thing to go through. But if you do the comparisons and really find out how you lined up against last year's plan and what it means for this year, you'll go a long way to choosing the right plan.

GUPTA: It's probably worth the time, it sounds like you're saying, and trying to at least anticipate what some of your health issues might be in any given year.

WILLIS: That's right, Sanjay. You've really got to figure out what you're going to need next year. If you're going to have a baby, if you're having a big life-changing event of some kind. Pay double, triple attention to what you're doing this year because it's really going to matter.
 
toomuchtime said:
It is important to distinguish between affordable access to health care and affordable access to health insurance. When one considers the large numbers of free and sliding scale federally funded and privately funded clinics everywhere in the US that already provide comprehensive medical and dental care based on your ability to pay, the US already has nearly universal access to affordable health care. The bills being considered by Congress aim to increase affordable access to health insurance, but as Diane Feinstein worried, some of the cost cutting measures in these bills may actually reduce funding for these clinics and as several studies have warned some measures may cause health insurance premiums to increase more rapidly, perhaps forcing some to drop their health insurance, it is not clear if these bills will increase or decrease affordable access to health care.

The whole purpose is to get those people affordable coverage who are stuck between a rock and a hard place: Earning too much to qualify for Medicaid, and not earning enough to afford private insurance.
 
toomuchtime said:
It is important to distinguish between affordable access to health care and affordable access to health insurance. When one considers the large numbers of free and sliding scale federally funded and privately funded clinics everywhere in the US that already provide comprehensive medical and dental care based on your ability to pay, the US already has nearly universal access to affordable health care. The bills being considered by Congress aim to increase affordable access to health insurance, but as Diane Feinstein worried, some of the cost cutting measures in these bills may actually reduce funding for these clinics and as several studies have warned some measures may cause health insurance premiums to increase more rapidly, perhaps forcing some to drop their health insurance, it is not clear if these bills will increase or decrease affordable access to health care.

The whole purpose is to get those people affordable coverage who are stuck between a rock and a hard place: Earning too much to qualify for Medicaid, and not earning enough to afford private insurance.

Looks like that goal is down the crapper. The Public Option will be more expensive than private insurance.
 

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