Op-Ed: Historic Justice: A Kurdish State Now

[Sally]

I think a lot of us are hoping that the Kurds finally get their nation.

Op-Ed: Historic Justice: A Kurdish State Now

The Kurds have a right to independence. Their lack of it until now is an unjust and tragic accident of history.


Published: Thursday, October 23, 2014 12:54 AM


Dr. Mordechai Kedar
Dr. Mordechai Kedar is a senior lecturer in the Department of Arabic at...
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The borders of most of the Arab countries east of the Mediterranean were delineated in the period following WWI, on the ruins of the Ottoman Empire. The borders were fixed on the basis of British and French interests and the ties those two countries had formed with local groups.



Two non-Muslim groups were granted independence: The Jews were given Britain's pledge – in the form of The Balfour Declaration – that it would help establish a National Home for them, and France granted the Christians dwelling north of Israel the country of Lebanon, as separate from Syria. The Zionist movement was active and visible in the political corridors of Britain, while the French empathized with the fears the Lebanese Christians held of becoming a minority in a country with a Muslim majority.

Continue at:

Historic Justice A Kurdish State Now - Op-Eds - Arutz Sheva

 

[Moonglow]

So the Kurds represent the nice Muslims?

 

[Sally]

So the Kurds represent the nice Muslims?

The Kurds are a very ancient people, and by now (since they number in the millions and millions), they should have their own state.

 

[Coyote]

I agree, they should have autonomy. But it will be tricky since they are spread in Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey...yet another nice legacy of colonial rule that divided up the Mid East and left the Kurds out in the cold.

Perhaps since Syria and Iraq are both failed states - something can be cobbled from them.

It won't be politically easy because groups like the PKK are also listed as a terrorist group.

 

[Sally]

I agree, they should have autonomy. But it will be tricky since they are spread in Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey...yet another nice legacy of colonial rule that divided up the Mid East and left the Kurds out in the cold.

Perhaps since Syria and Iraq are both failed states - something can be cobbled from them.

It won't be politically easy because groups like the PKK are also listed as a terrorist group.

How about something cobbled out of Syria, Iraq, Turkey and Iran for the Kurds? These countries might be happy to carve out a sliver of their land for the Kurds so that when these slivers are put together they will amount to a new country for the Kurds. Weren't the Pakistani Muslims able to get a huge part of India for themselves, so why can't these other countries give something for the Kurds?

 

[Coyote]

I agree, they should have autonomy. But it will be tricky since they are spread in Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey...yet another nice legacy of colonial rule that divided up the Mid East and left the Kurds out in the cold.

Perhaps since Syria and Iraq are both failed states - something can be cobbled from them.

It won't be politically easy because groups like the PKK are also listed as a terrorist group.

How about something cobbled out of Syria, Iraq, Turkey and Iran for the Kurds? These countries might be happy to carve out a sliver of their land for the Kurds so that when these slivers are put together they will amount to a new country for the Kurds. Weren't the Pakistani Muslims able to get a huge part of India for themselves, so why can't these other countries give something for the Kurds?

Because they are all independent nations. I don't see Turkey or Iran giving up land, and keep in mind - the Kurds too have been involved in terrorism against those countries in their quest for autonomy as well. That complicates things. I just think...with Syria and Iraq in shambles and little government control...that might be more realistic.

 

[irosie91]

Anyone interesting in just what the kurds are------should read the writings of people who "have been there"........sorry---I cannot cite them from memory----but my all time fave for
insight into a society is "short stories"-------People who have lived amongst kurds or encountered them------have done some writing which provide insight into the "culture"------as far as I could discern they are very undereducated-----"rough riders" living way up in the mountains----an EXTREMELY
tribal type lifestyle-----by no means "gentle"----while most are muslims-----there are (or at least--were) both Christian and jewish and some other stuff--enclaves------small but present----at least--in iran and turkey. The yazidis------apparently some kind of Zoroastrian are news
to me-----but no real surprise. Ancient muslim Baghdad
had a considerable Zoroastrian population (ask sheherazad) Minority groups in Islamic lands tend to
"take to the hills" as one recourse. Zoroastrians were also "dhimmis"
under shariah law

 

[Coyote]

NPR did an interesting interview on the Kurds:

Understanding The Kurds Different Roles In Different Conflicts Parallels NPR

 

[irosie91]

NPR did an interesting interview on the Kurds:

Understanding The Kurds Different Roles In Different Conflicts Parallels NPR

THIANKS Coyote---it would be a good article for anyone who
----knows absolutely nothing about the kurds------a kind of reading on the second grade level

 

[Sally]

NPR did an interesting interview on the Kurds:

Understanding The Kurds Different Roles In Different Conflicts Parallels NPR

THIANKS Coyote---it would be a good article for anyone who
----knows absolutely nothing about the kurds------a kind of reading on the second grade level

When you really get down to it, there are so many Turks in Germany (probably 3rd generation by now) and so many Iranians who fled Iran for the West so there should be some silver of land both from Turkey and Iran which could be given over to the Kurds. Imagine if all the Turks and Iranians didn't leave their countries how many millions would be there now. So the space that they would have taken up can be given to the Kurds.

 

[Coyote]

NPR did an interesting interview on the Kurds:

Understanding The Kurds Different Roles In Different Conflicts Parallels NPR

THIANKS Coyote---it would be a good article for anyone who
----knows absolutely nothing about the kurds------a kind of reading on the second grade level

When you really get down to it, there are so many Turks in Germany (probably 3rd generation by now) and so many Iranians who fled Iran for the West so there should be some silver of land both from Turkey and Iran which could be given over to the Kurds. Imagine if all the Turks and Iranians didn't leave their countries how many millions would be there now. So the space that they would have taken up can be given to the Kurds.

Ya...but Sally...you are overlooking Human Nature.

 

[Coyote]

NPR did an interesting interview on the Kurds:

Understanding The Kurds Different Roles In Different Conflicts Parallels NPR

THIANKS Coyote---it would be a good article for anyone who
----knows absolutely nothing about the kurds------a kind of reading on the second grade level

Well Rosie...most people don't and the transcript doesn't reflect the entire interview.

I thought Sally might find it interesting given her lack of knowledge in the history of that region

 

[irosie91]

NPR did an interesting interview on the Kurds:

Understanding The Kurds Different Roles In Different Conflicts Parallels NPR

THIANKS Coyote---it would be a good article for anyone who
----knows absolutely nothing about the kurds------a kind of reading on the second grade level

When you really get down to it, there are so many Turks in Germany (probably 3rd generation by now) and so many Iranians who fled Iran for the West so there should be some silver of land both from Turkey and Iran which could be given over to the Kurds. Imagine if all the Turks and Iranians didn't leave their countries how many millions would be there now. So the space that they would have taken up can be given to the Kurds.

Ya...but Sally...you are overlooking Human Nature.

whose "human nature"?? the issue is ...... do the kurds have anything like "rights"??? I do agree that the turks and Iranians and even the Iraqis AIN"T about to give up anything to NO ONE

 

[Sally]

NPR did an interesting interview on the Kurds:

Understanding The Kurds Different Roles In Different Conflicts Parallels NPR

THIANKS Coyote---it would be a good article for anyone who
----knows absolutely nothing about the kurds------a kind of reading on the second grade level

When you really get down to it, there are so many Turks in Germany (probably 3rd generation by now) and so many Iranians who fled Iran for the West so there should be some silver of land both from Turkey and Iran which could be given over to the Kurds. Imagine if all the Turks and Iranians didn't leave their countries how many millions would be there now. So the space that they would have taken up can be given to the Kurds.

Ya...but Sally...you are overlooking Human Nature.

whose "human nature"?? the issue is ...... do the kurds have anything like "rights"??? I do agree that the turks and Iranians and even the Iraqis AIN"T about to give up anything to NO ONE

I have to laugh. All of a sudden Coyote is a scholar when it comes to the Kurds??? Naturally these countries would be unwilling to give even a sliver of land to the millions and millions of Kurds for their own country. Maybe India should have held out and not given a chunk of land to the Muslims to make the country of Pakistan.

 

[Coyote]

I've long been interested in the Kurds....maybe longer than you Sally. We've let them down so many times.

I don't know why you harp on Pakistan. It has nothing to do with the Kurds...

Why do you think it would be so easy to as you say "carve a sliver" of land out?

I know some of the issues in Iraq, related to making the Kurdish region autonomous was one of resources - the Kurdish area was resource rich for example. A lot of conflicts that might superficially be religious or ethnic are often about resources.

And then, ther's the other aspect pointed out in this 2nd grade article - the Kurds aren't exactly a united group.

How would you convince Iran and Turkey (and Syria and Iraq) to give up a portion of their nations to the Kurds? How would access to resources be divied up?

 

[Sally]

I've long been interested in the Kurds....maybe longer than you Sally. We've let them down so many times.

I don't know why you harp on Pakistan. It has nothing to do with the Kurds...

Why do you think it would be so easy to as you say "carve a sliver" of land out?

I know some of the issues in Iraq, related to making the Kurdish region autonomous was one of resources - the Kurdish area was resource rich for example. A lot of conflicts that might superficially be religious or ethnic are often about resources.

And then, ther's the other aspect pointed out in this 2nd grade article - the Kurds aren't exactly a united group.

How would you convince Iran and Turkey (and Syria and Iraq) to give up a portion of their nations to the Kurds? How would access to resources be divied up?

Yes, we all have become scholars via the Internet, haven't we, Coyote? I bring up Pakistan because that was a country carved out of another country. If these four countries have been having trouble with the Kurds because the Kurds don't have their own country, maybe it would be in their best interests to give up some land for the Kurds so they wouldn't be bothered by the Kurds any more.

 

[Coyote]

I've long been interested in the Kurds....maybe longer than you Sally. We've let them down so many times.

I don't know why you harp on Pakistan. It has nothing to do with the Kurds...

Why do you think it would be so easy to as you say "carve a sliver" of land out?

I know some of the issues in Iraq, related to making the Kurdish region autonomous was one of resources - the Kurdish area was resource rich for example. A lot of conflicts that might superficially be religious or ethnic are often about resources.

And then, ther's the other aspect pointed out in this 2nd grade article - the Kurds aren't exactly a united group.

How would you convince Iran and Turkey (and Syria and Iraq) to give up a portion of their nations to the Kurds? How would access to resources be divied up?

Yes, we all have become scholars via the Internet, haven't we, Coyote? I bring up Pakistan because that was a country carved out of another country. If these four countries have been having trouble with the Kurds because the Kurds don't have their own country, maybe it would be in their best interests to give up some land for the Kurds so they wouldn't be bothered by the Kurds any more.

Many many countries have been carved out of other countries by collonial powers. We can thank that legacy for the artificial boundaries that led to some of the chaos we see today in the Middle East and Africa. I just wonder why you continuously make an example of India and Pakistan.

Unlike that example - which really involved only one country intitially (India) and split into not 2 but eventually 3 countries (Bangladesh being the third) because the powers that drew up the partition assumed that religion would be the only point of commonality (wrong).

Why do you think that those countries would give up land for an automous Kurdistan? In practical terms - what is in it for them?

How would you divy up resources and address security?

Is this not similar to Israel giving up the West Bank to the Palestinians then?

It's not really simple I'm thinking.

 

[Sally]

I've long been interested in the Kurds....maybe longer than you Sally. We've let them down so many times.

I don't know why you harp on Pakistan. It has nothing to do with the Kurds...

Why do you think it would be so easy to as you say "carve a sliver" of land out?

I know some of the issues in Iraq, related to making the Kurdish region autonomous was one of resources - the Kurdish area was resource rich for example. A lot of conflicts that might superficially be religious or ethnic are often about resources.

And then, ther's the other aspect pointed out in this 2nd grade article - the Kurds aren't exactly a united group.

How would you convince Iran and Turkey (and Syria and Iraq) to give up a portion of their nations to the Kurds? How would access to resources be divied up?

Yes, we all have become scholars via the Internet, haven't we, Coyote? I bring up Pakistan because that was a country carved out of another country. If these four countries have been having trouble with the Kurds because the Kurds don't have their own country, maybe it would be in their best interests to give up some land for the Kurds so they wouldn't be bothered by the Kurds any more.

Many many countries have been carved out of other countries by collonial powers. We can thank that legacy for the artificial boundaries that led to some of the chaos we see today in the Middle East and Africa. I just wonder why you continuously make an example of India and Pakistan.

Unlike that example - which really involved only one country intitially (India) and split into not 2 but eventually 3 countries (Bangladesh being the third) because the powers that drew up the partition assumed that religion would be the only point of commonality (wrong).

Why do you think that those countries would give up land for an automous Kurdistan? In practical terms - what is in it for them?

How would you divy up resources and address security?

Is this not similar to Israel giving up the West Bank to the Palestinians then?

It's not really simple I'm thinking.

In Europe, many boundaries of countries have changed, and somehow the individual countries don't seem to be the worse for it. I seem to be for the countries involved to give up a little land for the Kurds, and you appear to disagree with it. We don't have to go on and on with this. We each can have our individual thoughts about this matter without dragging it out here. All we can do is wait to see what the future will bring the Kurds.

 

[Coyote]

I've long been interested in the Kurds....maybe longer than you Sally. We've let them down so many times.

I don't know why you harp on Pakistan. It has nothing to do with the Kurds...

Why do you think it would be so easy to as you say "carve a sliver" of land out?

I know some of the issues in Iraq, related to making the Kurdish region autonomous was one of resources - the Kurdish area was resource rich for example. A lot of conflicts that might superficially be religious or ethnic are often about resources.

And then, ther's the other aspect pointed out in this 2nd grade article - the Kurds aren't exactly a united group.

How would you convince Iran and Turkey (and Syria and Iraq) to give up a portion of their nations to the Kurds? How would access to resources be divied up?

Yes, we all have become scholars via the Internet, haven't we, Coyote? I bring up Pakistan because that was a country carved out of another country. If these four countries have been having trouble with the Kurds because the Kurds don't have their own country, maybe it would be in their best interests to give up some land for the Kurds so they wouldn't be bothered by the Kurds any more.

Many many countries have been carved out of other countries by collonial powers. We can thank that legacy for the artificial boundaries that led to some of the chaos we see today in the Middle East and Africa. I just wonder why you continuously make an example of India and Pakistan.

Unlike that example - which really involved only one country intitially (India) and split into not 2 but eventually 3 countries (Bangladesh being the third) because the powers that drew up the partition assumed that religion would be the only point of commonality (wrong).

Why do you think that those countries would give up land for an automous Kurdistan? In practical terms - what is in it for them?

How would you divy up resources and address security?

Is this not similar to Israel giving up the West Bank to the Palestinians then?

It's not really simple I'm thinking.

In Europe, many boundaries of countries have changed, and somehow the individual countries don't seem to be the worse for it. I seem to be for the countries involved to give up a little land for the Kurds, and you appear to disagree with it. We don't have to go on and on with this. We each can have our individual thoughts about this matter without dragging it out here. All we can do is wait to see what the future will bring the Kurds.

Depends on what you mean "the worse for it"...
the "dividing up" has often been the result of years, decades even centuries of war and grudge holding. Ireland being a good recent example.

You misunderstand me. I don't disagree. I just wonder how you will get them to agree, particularly if it involves resources.

I think it would be easier to get it from Syria and Iraq than Turkey and Iran.

 

[Sally]

I've long been interested in the Kurds....maybe longer than you Sally. We've let them down so many times.

I don't know why you harp on Pakistan. It has nothing to do with the Kurds...

Why do you think it would be so easy to as you say "carve a sliver" of land out?

I know some of the issues in Iraq, related to making the Kurdish region autonomous was one of resources - the Kurdish area was resource rich for example. A lot of conflicts that might superficially be religious or ethnic are often about resources.

And then, ther's the other aspect pointed out in this 2nd grade article - the Kurds aren't exactly a united group.

How would you convince Iran and Turkey (and Syria and Iraq) to give up a portion of their nations to the Kurds? How would access to resources be divied up?

Yes, we all have become scholars via the Internet, haven't we, Coyote? I bring up Pakistan because that was a country carved out of another country. If these four countries have been having trouble with the Kurds because the Kurds don't have their own country, maybe it would be in their best interests to give up some land for the Kurds so they wouldn't be bothered by the Kurds any more.

Many many countries have been carved out of other countries by collonial powers. We can thank that legacy for the artificial boundaries that led to some of the chaos we see today in the Middle East and Africa. I just wonder why you continuously make an example of India and Pakistan.

Unlike that example - which really involved only one country intitially (India) and split into not 2 but eventually 3 countries (Bangladesh being the third) because the powers that drew up the partition assumed that religion would be the only point of commonality (wrong).

Why do you think that those countries would give up land for an automous Kurdistan? In practical terms - what is in it for them?

How would you divy up resources and address security?

Is this not similar to Israel giving up the West Bank to the Palestinians then?

It's not really simple I'm thinking.

In Europe, many boundaries of countries have changed, and somehow the individual countries don't seem to be the worse for it. I seem to be for the countries involved to give up a little land for the Kurds, and you appear to disagree with it. We don't have to go on and on with this. We each can have our individual thoughts about this matter without dragging it out here. All we can do is wait to see what the future will bring the Kurds.

Depends on what you mean "the worse for it"...
the "dividing up" has often been the result of years, decades even centuries of war and grudge holding. Ireland being a good recent example.

You misunderstand me. I don't disagree. I just wonder how you will get them to agree, particularly if it involves resources.

I think it would be easier to get it from Syria and Iraq than Turkey and Iran.

I think I'll just let the countries involved figure that out, not that they would actually be willing to help the Kurds. I suggest we just wait and see what the future brings.