Ooorah!!!

[Mr.Fitnah]

I'm afraid you misunderstood me, jent. I'm not interested in out-of-context quotes from the Qur'an that you've copied and pasted; I want you to directly address what I posted and explain how your view of Islam is consistent with my in-context passages.

You view of Islam is bidah, innovation and rejects traditional Islam.

 

[Kalam]

Well I don't think you are in any position to make any demands of anyone .

Fortunately, your opinion doesn't mean much to me.

especially one based on a false premise.
If I recall correctly she asserted that Ishaq was widely respected in the ME, It is.

Wrong. She has repeatedly claimed that Sirat Rasul Allah is, in her own words, a "holy book."

Al Sira is an essential book to understand Islam and the life of Mohammad.

In your opinion, which is based on, what, a year or two of reading about Islam on Wahhabi internet websites?

Second your interpretation of the Quran is so far off sharia

Whose interpretation of sharia? How do you know that it's correct?

you are called Mu῾tazilī and not a muslim.

I'm called a Muslim by all of the Muslims I know.

You do not speak for mainstream Islam by any stretch you speak for an all but extinct sect.

I speak for Qur'anic Islam.

Your irrational interpretation of the Quran

Nothing about my interpretation of the Qur'an is "irrational." It's based on scriptural and historical context.

and subsequent dismissing of hadith arbitrarily based on that irrational interpretation

Oxymoronic.

,makes your view of Islam translucently ludicrous.

You attempt to dismiss it as such because you're unable to prove me wrong in religious discussions.

Making you an entertaining tool.

You've got the "tool" part down, but I wouldn't call you "entertaining."

 

[Kalam]

I'm afraid you misunderstood me, jent. I'm not interested in out-of-context quotes from the Qur'an that you've copied and pasted; I want you to directly address what I posted and explain how your view of Islam is consistent with my in-context passages.

You view of Islam is bidah, innovation and rejects traditional Islam.

I was speaking to jent. Be a troll somewhere else.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Fortunately, your opinion doesn't mean much to me.

Right back @ ya.

 

[JenT]

Well I don't think you are in any position to make any demands of anyone .

Fortunately, your opinion doesn't mean much to me.

But it does to me and anyone else wandering by.

Quote: Originally Posted by Mr.Fitnah
especially one based on a false premise. If I recall correctly she asserted that Ishaq was widely respected in the ME, It is.

Wrong. She has repeatedly claimed that Sirat Rasul Allah is, in her own words, a "holy book."

"Holy" - 1.Belonging to, derived from, or associated with a divine power; sacred.

Is Muhammad not associated with a divine power? Because the Sira is the oldest written document about the life of Muhammad, and even the website you directed me to uses it.

Quote: Originally Posted by Mr.Fitnah
Al Sira is an essential book to understand Islam and the life of Mohammad.

In your opinion, which is based on, what, a year or two of reading about Islam on Wahhabi internet websites?

Okay on THIS LINK. even the website YOU referred me to refers to the "The Life Of Muhammad", "A Translation of Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah", it's the same book

http://www.usmessageboard.com/1421400-post429.html

That took me a heck of a long time to find that, don't ask me again please

Quote: Originally Posted by Mr.Fitnah
Second your interpretation of the Quran is so far off sharia

Whose interpretation of sharia? How do you know that it's correct?

Research. Like everybody else. Anything can be translated. Anything can be researched.

Quote: Originally Posted by Mr.Fitnah
you are called Mu῾tazilī and not a muslim.

I'm called a Muslim by all of the Muslims I know.

what are you guys talking about?

Quote: Originally Posted by Mr.Fitnah
You do not speak for mainstream Islam by any stretch you speak for an all but extinct sect.

I speak for Qur'anic Islam.

Kalam, what's your background again? I'm sure you've already said, forgive me, I didn't write it down. Were you raised Muslim? Live in the ME?

Quote: Originally Posted by Mr.Fitnah
Your irrational interpretation of the Quran

Nothing about my interpretation of the Qur'an is "irrational." It's based on scriptural and historical context.

I don't think it's irrational. I think it's the part where Muhammad presents it in peace. You probably believe it is peace. Most western Muslims do. Our government is trying to convince everyone that's what it is, rewrite the whole religion. But it's not. And the fundamentalist Muslims know this and as soon as more people convert the demands go up right along with it.

Quote: Originally Posted by Mr.Fitnah
and subsequent dismissing of hadith arbitrarily based on that irrational interpretation

Oxymoronic.

not sure where the quotes ended there

Quote: Originally Posted by Mr.Fitnah
,makes your view of Islam translucently ludicrous.

You attempt to dismiss it as such because you're unable to prove me wrong in religious discussions.

Kalam, the method of Muhammad proves you wrong. History proves you wrong. Every Christian and Jew being slaughtered today proves you wrong. The only thing that doesn't prove you wrong is our government, whom I believe has bartered our public schools to indoctrinate Islam for whatever they could get.
How Clinton Surrendered Children Islam

 

[JenT]

HEY! This is my honor to the troops thread!

and further discussion about Islam, please post on any of the other MANY ones we got going, thanks!

who did that?

 

[Kalam]

But it does to me and anyone else wandering by.

What makes you think that?

"Holy" - 1.Belonging to, derived from, or associated with a divine power; sacred.

Is Muhammad not associated with a divine power? Because the Sira is the oldest written document about the life of Muhammad, and even the website you directed me to uses it.

Okay on THIS LINK. even the website YOU referred me to refers to the "The Life Of Muhammad", "A Translation of Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah", it's the same book

Wrong. That article is critical of Ibn Ishaq's account. An excerpt:

"So then the real source of this unacceptable story of slaughter was the descendants of the Jews of Medina, from whom Ibn Ishaq took these "odd tales". For doing so Ibn Ishaq was severely criticized by other scholars and historians and was called by Malik an impostor.

The sources of the story are, therefore, extremely doubtful and the details are diametrically opposed to the spirit of Islam and the rules of the Qur'an to make the story credible. Credible authority is lacking, and circumstantial evidence does not support it. This means that the story is more than doubtful."​

Sorry, sister, no dice.

Do you accept that Sirat Rasul Allah is not a "holy book," or can you show me a credible Islamic source that describes it as such?

http://www.usmessageboard.com/1421400-post429.html

That took me a heck of a long time to find that, don't ask me again please

If only you'd spent half that time reading it, you could have avoided disproving your own argument...

Research. Like everybody else. Anything can be translated. Anything can be researched.

That doesn't answer the question.

what are you guys talking about?

Mr. Fitnah is unable to address my points directly and has unsurprisingly resorted to dishonest debate tactics such as accusing my sect of being outside of the fold of Islam.

Kalam, what's your background again? I'm sure you've already said, forgive me, I didn't write it down. Were you raised Muslim? Live in the ME?

My background is unimportant. No matter what I say, you'll attempt to use it against me somehow. Know that I've devoted myself to the study and defense of Islam for quite some time. I'm quite familiar with the Qur'an and have studied most major hadith collections and peripheral writings, such as those of Ibn Ishaq. The peripheral writings seem to be, for the most part, without merit.

I don't think it's irrational. I think it's the part where Muhammad presents it in peace. You probably believe it is peace.

Abiding by the entire Qur'an as I do involves maintaining a peaceful and brotherly demeanor towards believers, while treating disbelievers with respect so long as they act similarly. You're repeating the now-discredited platitude about Makkan verses being peaceful and Madinan verses being belligerent. An honest perusal of the passages I provided from throughout the entire book will leave you with no choice but to toss this ridiculous notion out of the window.

Most western Muslims do.

Rest assured, my geographical location has little bearing on my religious beliefs.

Our government is trying to convince everyone that's what it is, rewrite the whole religion. But it's not. And the fundamentalist Muslims know this

"Fundamentalist" is a misnomer. You're describing radicals, who attempt to distort the meaning of Islamic scripture to accommodate their hateful political ideologies, not unlike you and Fitnuts.

and as soon as more people convert the demands go up right along with it.

Another platitude with no basis in fact.

not sure where the quotes ended there

Not sure what you're talking about...

Kalam, the method of Muhammad proves you wrong.

I've proved this wrong and will again if necessary.

History proves you wrong. Every Christian and Jew being slaughtered today proves you wrong.

It's your duty to establish an irrefutable link between these things and Qur'anic scripture (protip: you can't.)

whom I believe has bartered our public schools to indoctrinate Islam for whatever they could get.

Another testament to your delusion and paranoia.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

You attempt to dismiss it as such because you're unable to prove me wrong in religious discussions.

but I wouldn't call you "entertaining."

I have shown your views to be translucently ludicrous, nothing can be proven to you you are utterly fact proof . I'm certain you don't find it entertaining.
I said early on I have no interest in defining real Islam, Ill leave that to the muslims, my interest is t.o show what mainstream Islam thought says about infidels and jihad.

If you have some legal decision based on Islamic scripture from any Islamic scholar that abrogates: ( protip: you cant)
8:39

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do
2:193.
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc193

Index of /what-is-islam/quran/noble

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

The Order to fight People of the Scriptures until They give the Jizyah
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=9&tid=20980

Paying Jizyah is a Sign of Kufr and Disgrace
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=9&tid=20986

Fighting the Jews and Christians is legislated because They are Idolators and Disbelievers

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=9&tid=21668
The some off the justification beleivers use for killing none muslims
Post it.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Please post a legal decision stating Ibn kathirs Tafsir is heretical ,unreliable innacurate .

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

HEY! This is my honor to the troops thread!

and further discussion about Islam, please post on any of the other MANY ones we got going, thanks!

who did that?

Sorry didn't mean to kill your thread, I have a habit of refuting muslims at will.

 

[Kalam]

Please post a legal decision stating Ibn kathirs Tafsir is heretical ,unreliable innacurate .

Ibn Kathir's writings are without merit because he produced them having already assumed that certain ahadith were reliable. The proper approach involves beginning with the Qur'an and rejecting all tradition that is inconsistent with it. Ibn Kathir attempted to reconcile the Qur'an with false traditions and found himself unable to produce a tafsir consistent with the entire Qur'anic message because of this.

 

[Kalam]

kill your thread, I have a habit of refuting muslims at will.

Feel free to begin whenever you feel comfortable.

 

[JW Frogen]

Kalam, I bet you have beautiful hair under that cover.

Don't you want to feel the sunshine on your lovely locks?

See, here is the problem with you text oriented God freaks, (Christian, Buddist, Muslim, it does not matter) you think you can read your way to God?

You want easy rules sent down from on high.

You really don't want to experience the mystery, the terror, the doubt, the sweet sadness, the wonder, the love of it all; no, you want a theological, paint by numbers God.

And God just does not do that.

Men do, but not God.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Please post a legal decision stating Ibn kathirs Tafsir is heretical ,unreliable innacurate .

Ibn Kathir's writings are without merit because he produced them having already assumed that certain ahadith were reliable. The proper approach involves beginning with the Qur'an and rejecting all tradition that is inconsistent with it. Ibn Kathir attempted to reconcile the Qur'an with false traditions and found himself unable to produce a tafsir consistent with the entire Qur'anic message because of this.

That is not a legal ruling, that is typical "kalam" drivel.
The Quran has a message of compassion for muslims and a message of genocide for none muslims .That is the spectrum of the Quranic message.
It is naturally inconsistent.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Feel free to post any recognized tafsir that differs in any substantive way from Ibn Kathir.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Zamakhshari, Abu al-Qasim Mahmud ibn Umar
(d. 1144 )

Mutazili theologian, Arabic philologist, and Quran exegete of Persian origin. His Quran commentary, Al-kashshaf an haqaiq al-tanzil, exhibits his Mutazili dogmas with little attention to tradition and elaborates on lexical, grammatical, and rhetorical elements while interpreting the Quran and highlighting its miraculous inimitability. His Al-mufassal is an exhaustive exposition of Arabic grammar, and his Asas al-balagha is a dictionary of Arabic. His literary works include Maqamat, containing moralizing discourses; his diwan of poems; and Al-mustaqsa fi-l-amthal, a popular collection of proverbs.

Zamakhshari, Abu al-Qasim Mahmud ibn Umar - Oxford Islamic Studies Online

Sometimes, the requirements for jizyah could be interpreted severely. In Tafsir al-kashshaf, the Mutazilah exegete al-Zamakhshari (d. 1144) assumes that the intent of the Quranic commandment was to highlight the subordinate status of the dhimmi in Muslim society.

Therefore, the jizyah should be exacted as a form of humiliation. The non-Muslim should come to pay the tax walking, not riding. When he pays, he is made to stand, while the tax collector sits. The collector should seize him by the scruff of the neck, shake him, and say, “Pay the jizyah!”, cuffing him on the back of the head once the tax has been paid.

A similarly hard line is taken by the modern commentator and political activist Sayyid Qutb (d. 1966) in his widely read commentary, Fi ?ilal al-Qur?an. This prominent ideologist of the Muslim Brotherhood is defiantly triumphalist, claiming that jizyah amounts to a punishment for polytheism (especially for Christians) and is required before peaceful relations can be established between Muslims and the “People of the Book.” Seeing shari?ah (the divine law) as a sort of positive law, Qu?b intimates that jizyah is a recompense or protection, not from military service or external enemies, but from jihad. If it is not paid as part of a peace agreement, the Islamic state owes no obligation to non-Muslims, whether at home or abroad.

Log In - Oxford Islamic Studies Online

Paying Jizyah is a Sign of Kufr and Disgrace

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

A differance with out much of a distinction.
Not compulsion is religion? sounds just like compulsion.