The true living God

[kjw47]

why would god give us free will if he didn’t want us to disobey him? And I’m not responsible for what others, like Adam, do.

You have trouble with words and their definitions. Free will doesn't mean he didn't want us to disobey God. You keep interpreting words in a wrong manner and it ends up promoting Satan. It leads you to think in irresponsible terms. You are easily misled.

What it means is God gave us a choice. Remember, what Genesis taught us and that to have light, we had to have dark or the void and that was there in the beginning. In order to have God (good), we had to have Satan (bad). All of this was created, including hell, before the creation of the universe, Earth, and everything in it.

So you're saying that god didn't create everything in the universe. Got a list?

If god gives us free will and when I choose something, god punishes me. well, that's not free will.

Most choose and know it is not good. Yet keep on doing things that God disapproves of. God does not accept any sin. There is 0 room for sin with God. 1John 3)
After Jesus, thousand year reign as Gods appointed king,( Daniel 7:13-15) Jesus hands back the kingdom to his God and Father and subjects himself-1Corinthians 15:24-28) The 2nd resurrection,( symbolic) Jesus hands the followers back clean and unblemished anymore.( mortal). The earth will be transformed into a paradise. Gods kingdom will rule forever. Daniel 2:44)

 

[Taz]

Your reasoning is bullshit.

Actually, 1/3 of the spirit beings fell later on as well. They have free will as well. It would have happened over and over, ruining it for all. This system is almost done. We are well along in Revelation.
The issue raised---1) Do we as mortals need to listen to Gods advice to find the path of lasting happiness?2) Or is it better to know both sides ourselves and choose for ourselves? This sick system shows #1 is 100% fact.

if god wants us to act a certain way, why did he give us free will.

He also created mortals to know only good, he knew it was best for flesh. Satans lie ruined it all. Mortals chose this satan ruled system. We have no choice. This system is nearing its end. In fact, Gods kingdom is mankinds only remaining hope.

You didn't answer my question.

He gave us free will to choose with that free will to listen to him and love him and appreciate all the good things. Few even know him.

Having to choose something or get punished isn't free will.

 

[Taz]

why would god give us free will if he didn’t want us to disobey him? And I’m not responsible for what others, like Adam, do.

You have trouble with words and their definitions. Free will doesn't mean he didn't want us to disobey God. You keep interpreting words in a wrong manner and it ends up promoting Satan. It leads you to think in irresponsible terms. You are easily misled.

What it means is God gave us a choice. Remember, what Genesis taught us and that to have light, we had to have dark or the void and that was there in the beginning. In order to have God (good), we had to have Satan (bad). All of this was created, including hell, before the creation of the universe, Earth, and everything in it.

So you're saying that god didn't create everything in the universe. Got a list?

If god gives us free will and when I choose something, god punishes me. well, that's not free will.

Most choose and know it is not good. Yet keep on doing things that God disapproves of. God does not accept any sin. There is 0 room for sin with God. 1John 3)
After Jesus, thousand year reign as Gods appointed king,( Daniel 7:13-15) Jesus hands back the kingdom to his God and Father and subjects himself-1Corinthians 15:24-28) The 2nd resurrection,( symbolic) Jesus hands the followers back clean and unblemished anymore.( mortal). The earth will be transformed into a paradise. Gods kingdom will rule forever. Daniel 2:44)

If there is 0 room to disobey god, then that's not free will.

 

[james bond]

What empirical evidence of god?

God had to make evil for the absence of good to be evil. What a prick.

You have made God very, very, very angry. I can only guess how he will respond.

As for the rest, you'll have to find the answers yourself. Your questions, in a word, are... stupid. Lol.

I've got a hunch that you're pissing Him off as well. Why do I say this? Because no man can know the mind of God, and you just said that you know how God feels about a poster, and to what degree He feels that. How do you know what God thinks about Taz?

Hate to tell you, but every relationship that God has with a person is unique and between God and that person ONLY.

Then I can only say you haven't read the Bible very well. The Bible is God's word and we start to understand how he thinks. He thinks like us, i.e. we are created in his image. I would say how we think and feel about good and evil and justice is innate. He gave us his objective moral values in the ten commandments.

How do I know that God is angry with Taz? It's intuition. I think God will send him warnings.

Would you accept the things Taz says if he were talking about you? Of course not.

Now, does it give me the right to condemn Taz and punish him directly? No. We have had many holier than thou people who end up doing this. They may think it's fair to say God hates this and that. They may say it's okay to condemn them, tie them to the stake, and get rid of them. Is this what you're accusing me of?

I have left Taz to his own devices. All he was doing is asking questions in order to tweak Christians' noses. He claims to be agnostic and asks a lot of questions, but he doesn't learn anything from it. He's already made up his mind. He needs proof of God. He doesn't have an open mind nor try to understand the Christian viewpoint.

As for your last sentence, I would agree. I don't think Taz has a relationship with God because he needs proof of God. He doesn't think he exists, but I have been patiently explaining God to him and how he works. He chooses to think God exists if only to be evil.

 

[Taz]

What empirical evidence of god?

God had to make evil for the absence of good to be evil. What a prick.

You have made God very, very, very angry. I can only guess how he will respond.

As for the rest, you'll have to find the answers yourself. Your questions, in a word, are... stupid. Lol.

I've got a hunch that you're pissing Him off as well. Why do I say this? Because no man can know the mind of God, and you just said that you know how God feels about a poster, and to what degree He feels that. How do you know what God thinks about Taz?

Hate to tell you, but every relationship that God has with a person is unique and between God and that person ONLY.

Then I can only say you haven't read the Bible very well. The Bible is God's word and we start to understand how he thinks. He thinks like us, i.e. we are created in his image. I would say how we think and feel about good and evil and justice is innate. He gave us his objective moral values in the ten commandments.

How do I know that God is angry with Taz? It's intuition. I think God will send him warnings.

Would you accept the things Taz says if he were talking about you? Of course not.

Now, does it give me the right to condemn Taz and punish him directly? No. We have had many holier than thou people who end up doing this. They may think it's fair to say God hates this and that. They may say it's okay to condemn them, tie them to the stake, and get rid of them. Is this what you're accusing me of?

I have left Taz to his own devices. All he was doing is asking questions in order to tweak Christians' noses. He claims to be agnostic and asks a lot of questions, but he doesn't learn anything from it. He's already made up his mind. He needs proof of God. He doesn't have an open mind nor try to understand the Christian viewpoint.

As for your last sentence, I would agree. I don't think Taz has a relationship with God because he needs proof of God. He doesn't think he exists, but I have been patiently explaining God to him and how he works. He chooses to think God exists if only to be evil.

I’m still waiting for your empirical evidence for god. You said you had some.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Now, does it give me the right to condemn Taz and punish him directly? No. We have had many holier than thou people who end up doing this. They may think it's fair to say God hates this and that. They may say it's okay to condemn them, tie them to the stake, and get rid of them. Is this what you're accusing me of?

Good. Your reading comprehension is spot on, because that is exactly what you are doing.

Nobody should be able to tell another person what God will or won't do with someone else. Why? Because if you aren't the person in question, you don't know what that person's relationship is with their Higher Power, all you have is your interpretations of what you THINK God would do with that person.

Like I said further up the thread, I think that God is too big to be contained in just one dogma or religion. Personally, I believe that most religions are a reflection of ONE facet of God, because most of them say pretty much the same thing.

I personally think that as long as you recognize that there is a God in your life, and you make a serious effort to include Him in your life and live as you think He would want you to, you won't have much problem at all.

But the ones who don't take responsibility for their own actions (most Christians, because they think that because they are "saved" and don't have to worry about sinning), or those who judge others harshly without finding out about that person's circumstances might find that those are 2 of the worst sins.

Matter of fact, the original sin committed in the Garden was not taking responsibility for their actions when Adam and Eve were caught with the apple. I can't help but wonder how much different things would be if Adam had simply said "yep, I ate it because I was curious. Is there something I can do to fix the situation?" instead of blaming Eve, who then blamed the Serpent.

 

[ding]

Now, does it give me the right to condemn Taz and punish him directly? No. We have had many holier than thou people who end up doing this. They may think it's fair to say God hates this and that. They may say it's okay to condemn them, tie them to the stake, and get rid of them. Is this what you're accusing me of?

Good. Your reading comprehension is spot on, because that is exactly what you are doing.

Nobody should be able to tell another person what God will or won't do with someone else. Why? Because if you aren't the person in question, you don't know what that person's relationship is with their Higher Power, all you have is your interpretations of what you THINK God would do with that person.

Like I said further up the thread, I think that God is too big to be contained in just one dogma or religion. Personally, I believe that most religions are a reflection of ONE facet of God, because most of them say pretty much the same thing.

I personally think that as long as you recognize that there is a God in your life, and you make a serious effort to include Him in your life and live as you think He would want you to, you won't have much problem at all.

But the ones who don't take responsibility for their own actions (most Christians, because they think that because they are "saved" and don't have to worry about sinning), or those who judge others harshly without finding out about that person's circumstances might find that those are 2 of the worst sins.

Matter of fact, the original sin committed in the Garden was not taking responsibility for their actions when Adam and Eve were caught with the apple. I can't help but wonder how much different things would be if Adam had simply said "yep, I ate it because I was curious. Is there something I can do to fix the situation?" instead of blaming Eve, who then blamed the Serpent.

You are spot on. Especially the last part on their rationalization that they didn’t do wrong.

 

[ding]

What empirical evidence of god?

God had to make evil for the absence of good to be evil. What a prick.

You have made God very, very, very angry. I can only guess how he will respond.

As for the rest, you'll have to find the answers yourself. Your questions, in a word, are... stupid. Lol.

I've got a hunch that you're pissing Him off as well. Why do I say this? Because no man can know the mind of God, and you just said that you know how God feels about a poster, and to what degree He feels that. How do you know what God thinks about Taz?

Hate to tell you, but every relationship that God has with a person is unique and between God and that person ONLY.

Then I can only say you haven't read the Bible very well. The Bible is God's word and we start to understand how he thinks. He thinks like us, i.e. we are created in his image. I would say how we think and feel about good and evil and justice is innate. He gave us his objective moral values in the ten commandments.

How do I know that God is angry with Taz? It's intuition. I think God will send him warnings.

Would you accept the things Taz says if he were talking about you? Of course not.

Now, does it give me the right to condemn Taz and punish him directly? No. We have had many holier than thou people who end up doing this. They may think it's fair to say God hates this and that. They may say it's okay to condemn them, tie them to the stake, and get rid of them. Is this what you're accusing me of?

I have left Taz to his own devices. All he was doing is asking questions in order to tweak Christians' noses. He claims to be agnostic and asks a lot of questions, but he doesn't learn anything from it. He's already made up his mind. He needs proof of God. He doesn't have an open mind nor try to understand the Christian viewpoint.

As for your last sentence, I would agree. I don't think Taz has a relationship with God because he needs proof of God. He doesn't think he exists, but I have been patiently explaining God to him and how he works. He chooses to think God exists if only to be evil.

I’m still waiting for your empirical evidence for god. You said you had some.

If you cared about living a full and rewarding life and your children leading a full and rewarding life, you’d go out and find it yourself. It’s there. I’ve shown it to you plenty of times.

 

[ding]

Actually, 1/3 of the spirit beings fell later on as well. They have free will as well. It would have happened over and over, ruining it for all. This system is almost done. We are well along in Revelation.
The issue raised---1) Do we as mortals need to listen to Gods advice to find the path of lasting happiness?2) Or is it better to know both sides ourselves and choose for ourselves? This sick system shows #1 is 100% fact.

if god wants us to act a certain way, why did he give us free will.

He also created mortals to know only good, he knew it was best for flesh. Satans lie ruined it all. Mortals chose this satan ruled system. We have no choice. This system is nearing its end. In fact, Gods kingdom is mankinds only remaining hope.

You didn't answer my question.

He gave us free will to choose with that free will to listen to him and love him and appreciate all the good things. Few even know him.

Having to choose something or get punished isn't free will.

Not any different in our society now. Are you arguing I don’t have a choice in breaking a law or not? Seems to me the evidence that we do is overwhelming.

 

[Taz]

What empirical evidence of god?

God had to make evil for the absence of good to be evil. What a prick.

You have made God very, very, very angry. I can only guess how he will respond.

As for the rest, you'll have to find the answers yourself. Your questions, in a word, are... stupid. Lol.

I've got a hunch that you're pissing Him off as well. Why do I say this? Because no man can know the mind of God, and you just said that you know how God feels about a poster, and to what degree He feels that. How do you know what God thinks about Taz?

Hate to tell you, but every relationship that God has with a person is unique and between God and that person ONLY.

Then I can only say you haven't read the Bible very well. The Bible is God's word and we start to understand how he thinks. He thinks like us, i.e. we are created in his image. I would say how we think and feel about good and evil and justice is innate. He gave us his objective moral values in the ten commandments.

How do I know that God is angry with Taz? It's intuition. I think God will send him warnings.

Would you accept the things Taz says if he were talking about you? Of course not.

Now, does it give me the right to condemn Taz and punish him directly? No. We have had many holier than thou people who end up doing this. They may think it's fair to say God hates this and that. They may say it's okay to condemn them, tie them to the stake, and get rid of them. Is this what you're accusing me of?

I have left Taz to his own devices. All he was doing is asking questions in order to tweak Christians' noses. He claims to be agnostic and asks a lot of questions, but he doesn't learn anything from it. He's already made up his mind. He needs proof of God. He doesn't have an open mind nor try to understand the Christian viewpoint.

As for your last sentence, I would agree. I don't think Taz has a relationship with God because he needs proof of God. He doesn't think he exists, but I have been patiently explaining God to him and how he works. He chooses to think God exists if only to be evil.

I’m still waiting for your empirical evidence for god. You said you had some.

If you cared about living a full and rewarding life and your children leading a full and rewarding life, you’d go out and find it yourself. It’s there. I’ve shown it to you plenty of times.

All you have is fartsmoke, with gusts up to wishful thinking.

 

[Taz]

if god wants us to act a certain way, why did he give us free will.

He also created mortals to know only good, he knew it was best for flesh. Satans lie ruined it all. Mortals chose this satan ruled system. We have no choice. This system is nearing its end. In fact, Gods kingdom is mankinds only remaining hope.

You didn't answer my question.

He gave us free will to choose with that free will to listen to him and love him and appreciate all the good things. Few even know him.

Having to choose something or get punished isn't free will.

Not any different in our society now. Are you arguing I don’t have a choice in breaking a law or not? Seems to me the evidence that we do is overwhelming.

So you’re saying that god is like a police state. God’s watching what we do to punish us if we step out of line?

 

[ABikerSailor]

So you’re saying that god is like a police state. God’s watching what we do to punish us if we step out of line?

You know, I kinda thought that for a few years growing up, but have since figured it out. No, God didn't give us the 7 Noahide commandments of the 10 Commandments just so He could punish us for not following them, He gave them to us to help us grow and survive.

The first 3 commandments tell us to not disrespect God, not to take His name in vain, and to not have any other Gods besides Him. Why? Because He won't help you if you piss Him off by being disrespectful or praying to other Gods.

Thou shalt not murder. Why? If you murder someone, then one of the murdered person's loved ones may come after you for revenge and kill you.

Thou shalt not steal. Why? If you steal something from someone, they may want to kill you.

Thou shalt not bear false witness. Why? Telling the truth is crucial, and if you lie to your doctor about your symptoms, they might miss something and you die.

Honor thy mother and father. They are the ones that brought you here to this world and gave you life. Without them, you wouldn't exist.

Remember the sabbath day. Why? If you don't take some time off to relax and talk with God, you might get stressed and die from a heart attack.

Thou shalt not commit adultery. Why? If you have sex on the sly with someone else's SO, they may want to hunt you down and hurt or kill you.

Thou shalt not covet. Why? If you are jealous of what your neighbor has, you might be tempted to steal it, or possibly hurt them to get it, which is against 2 other commands.

The way I see it, the 10 Commandments are there to help us keep from messing things up and killing each other.

But, then again, I came around to that thought a few conversations with my roomie when we had been discussing the 613 mitzvoht that the Jews follow. Not every rule is for every Jewish person, because it covers everyone in the community, and what is required for a butcher isn't the same as what is required for a priest. The 613 mitzvoht according to the rabbi giving the lecture was so that the community as a whole would be functioning properly and running smooth.

 

[ding]

He also created mortals to know only good, he knew it was best for flesh. Satans lie ruined it all. Mortals chose this satan ruled system. We have no choice. This system is nearing its end. In fact, Gods kingdom is mankinds only remaining hope.

You didn't answer my question.

He gave us free will to choose with that free will to listen to him and love him and appreciate all the good things. Few even know him.

Having to choose something or get punished isn't free will.

Not any different in our society now. Are you arguing I don’t have a choice in breaking a law or not? Seems to me the evidence that we do is overwhelming.

So you’re saying that god is like a police state. God’s watching what we do to punish us if we step out of line?

No. I am arguing that God is the opposite of a police state. A police state would be a state that prevented you from violating it's laws. A real hands on state. God allows you to break them. A real hands off state.

 

[ding]

You have made God very, very, very angry. I can only guess how he will respond.

As for the rest, you'll have to find the answers yourself. Your questions, in a word, are... stupid. Lol.

I've got a hunch that you're pissing Him off as well. Why do I say this? Because no man can know the mind of God, and you just said that you know how God feels about a poster, and to what degree He feels that. How do you know what God thinks about Taz?

Hate to tell you, but every relationship that God has with a person is unique and between God and that person ONLY.

Then I can only say you haven't read the Bible very well. The Bible is God's word and we start to understand how he thinks. He thinks like us, i.e. we are created in his image. I would say how we think and feel about good and evil and justice is innate. He gave us his objective moral values in the ten commandments.

How do I know that God is angry with Taz? It's intuition. I think God will send him warnings.

Would you accept the things Taz says if he were talking about you? Of course not.

Now, does it give me the right to condemn Taz and punish him directly? No. We have had many holier than thou people who end up doing this. They may think it's fair to say God hates this and that. They may say it's okay to condemn them, tie them to the stake, and get rid of them. Is this what you're accusing me of?

I have left Taz to his own devices. All he was doing is asking questions in order to tweak Christians' noses. He claims to be agnostic and asks a lot of questions, but he doesn't learn anything from it. He's already made up his mind. He needs proof of God. He doesn't have an open mind nor try to understand the Christian viewpoint.

As for your last sentence, I would agree. I don't think Taz has a relationship with God because he needs proof of God. He doesn't think he exists, but I have been patiently explaining God to him and how he works. He chooses to think God exists if only to be evil.

I’m still waiting for your empirical evidence for god. You said you had some.

If you cared about living a full and rewarding life and your children leading a full and rewarding life, you’d go out and find it yourself. It’s there. I’ve shown it to you plenty of times.

All you have is fartsmoke, with gusts up to wishful thinking.

Like I wrote before... If you cared about living a full and rewarding life and your children leading a full and rewarding life, you’d go out and find it yourself. It’s there. I’ve shown it to you plenty of times.

So it is your loss, not mine.

 

[ding]

How is suffering illogical? Is happiness illogical too?

You keep trying to make sense of suffering in a vacuum. Is suffering all you see?

You can’t say that something is bad or unfair without first knowing what is good or fair. So there must be goodness and fairness in the world that it is being compared to. Why have you not done a full accounting?

I’m not the one who is bringing up a plan. You are the one who keeps bringing it up. You were given an incredibly rare and wonderful gift. The question is what are you going to do with it. What’s your plan?

What is the logic behind suffering or happiness? If there is an intelligence behind it there must be a logical reason. Agreed? Would you also agree that suffering is not evenly distributed, some, like me, get very little some get more than they can take. Is there a logic you'd like to share?

You make the case that suffering can be good and in some cases that is true. However, I see many cases where the good that comes from suffering doesn't seem to balance the pain it inflicts. There seems to be no logic or intelligence at work.

Happiness and mourning are effects not causes. In and of themselves they are not logical. They are literally reactions. Certain experiences may logically lead to people experiencing those feelings. Then again since humans are involved it is possible that it is not necessarily always logical for them to experience those feelings. So this discussion isn’t about suffering it is about the causes of suffering. Specifically why you believe it is illogical for God (if he is good) to allow the cause of suffering to exist.

Let me flip this around. Why should it be logical for bad things to happen to good people if there is a good God? Because from where I sit the only way that can happen is if God controls every single thing which occurs. That to me is the definition of illogical. Can you tell me how God can can make it so that no bad things happen to anyone without controlling everything even you? So right off the bat I have just proven how stupid your argument is.

Which proposition is less illogical. Yours, God controlling everything? Or mine, good comes from bad. Even you will reject your argument if it means in believing God controlling everything. At least with my argument I can believe that we don’t have complete information. That God does. So it isn't possible for us to fully understand the logic and wisdom of existence. Of course that doesn't mean we have to be complete nincompoops about it. It seems to me that life is quite fair. As near as I can tell the argument that life isn’t fair is based upon errors and exceptions. We live in a logical universe where every effect has a cause. As a rule we control our own destiny. As such our behaviors and actions play a large part in the fruit we bear. To argue that this is not the rule is illogical. So to argue that life is not fair can only come after a thorough investigation of both sides. You can’t say that something is bad or unfair without first knowing what is good or fair. So there must be goodness and fairness in the world that it is being compared to. Furthermore, the true comparison should be made for existing versus not existing. Is there anything in the universe that you are aware of that you would rather be? No. You have already won the cosmic lottery. So how can someone who has won the cosmic lottery dare complain that life isn’t fair.

You can’t possibly understand the good that can come from bad. You have never tried. The fact that you haven't even attempted to make a full accounting shows that you are incapable of understanding the information you have been given.

Where did you get your concept of good from? You can’t know a line is crooked unless you have an idea of what is straight. You can’t say that something is bad or unfair without first knowing what is good or fair. So there must be goodness and fairness in the world that it is being compared to. Right? So it seems to me that you believe right and wrong are universal. Why else would you make an argument that it is illogical for God to allow suffering, if you are not arguing that God’s actions are wrong and unfair. You have literally let the cat out of the bag that you believe there is such a thing as universal goodness and fairness.

The world I see is exactly what I'd expect to see if God doesn't exist, namely a random universe with no sign of intelligent design...

I don't believe God per se designed the laws of nature or the universe. I see it more like space and time were willed into existence. I say this because my perception of God is consciousness without form. A wholly foreign concept to us. That rather than consciousness being a late development of the evolution of space and time, it has always existed and is the source or matrix of the physical world. That the physical world is composed of mind stuff. So according to my perception God willed the material world into existence so that he could experience the material world through us.

You on the other hand have no perception of God, so you cannot test anything against that perception of God. You say the universe is random? Hardly. It is governed by information and rules. There was nothing random about the evolution of space and time. It evolved per the rules of nature and everything which had a potential to exist exists because its potentiality was pre-ordained by the laws of nature. It was only a matter of time before the universe became self aware through beings like us who know and create.

In fact, science is literally the study of the order within nature to better understand the order of nature so as to be able to make predictions about the order of nature. Nothing random there at all.

 

[alang1216]

How is suffering illogical? Is happiness illogical too?

You keep trying to make sense of suffering in a vacuum. Is suffering all you see?

You can’t say that something is bad or unfair without first knowing what is good or fair. So there must be goodness and fairness in the world that it is being compared to. Why have you not done a full accounting?

I’m not the one who is bringing up a plan. You are the one who keeps bringing it up. You were given an incredibly rare and wonderful gift. The question is what are you going to do with it. What’s your plan?

What is the logic behind suffering or happiness? If there is an intelligence behind it there must be a logical reason. Agreed? Would you also agree that suffering is not evenly distributed, some, like me, get very little some get more than they can take. Is there a logic you'd like to share?

You make the case that suffering can be good and in some cases that is true. However, I see many cases where the good that comes from suffering doesn't seem to balance the pain it inflicts. There seems to be no logic or intelligence at work.

Happiness and mourning are effects not causes. In and of themselves they are not logical. They are literally reactions. Certain experiences may logically lead to people experiencing those feelings. Then again since humans are involved it is possible that it is not necessarily always logical for them to experience those feelings. So this discussion isn’t about suffering it is about the causes of suffering. Specifically why you believe it is illogical for God (if he is good) to allow the cause of suffering to exist.

Let me flip this around. Why should it be logical for bad things to happen to good people if there is a good God? Because from where I sit the only way that can happen is if God controls every single thing which occurs. That to me is the definition of illogical. Can you tell me how God can can make it so that no bad things happen to anyone without controlling everything even you? So right off the bat I have just proven how stupid your argument is.

Which proposition is less illogical. Yours, God controlling everything? Or mine, good comes from bad. Even you will reject your argument if it means in believing God controlling everything. At least with my argument I can believe that we don’t have complete information. That God does. So it isn't possible for us to fully understand the logic and wisdom of existence. Of course that doesn't mean we have to be complete nincompoops about it. It seems to me that life is quite fair. As near as I can tell the argument that life isn’t fair is based upon errors and exceptions. We live in a logical universe where every effect has a cause. As a rule we control our own destiny. As such our behaviors and actions play a large part in the fruit we bear. To argue that this is not the rule is illogical. So to argue that life is not fair can only come after a thorough investigation of both sides. You can’t say that something is bad or unfair without first knowing what is good or fair. So there must be goodness and fairness in the world that it is being compared to. Furthermore, the true comparison should be made for existing versus not existing. Is there anything in the universe that you are aware of that you would rather be? No. You have already won the cosmic lottery. So how can someone who has won the cosmic lottery dare complain that life isn’t fair.

You can’t possibly understand the good that can come from bad. You have never tried. The fact that you haven't even attempted to make a full accounting shows that you are incapable of understanding the information you have been given.

Where did you get your concept of good from? You can’t know a line is crooked unless you have an idea of what is straight. You can’t say that something is bad or unfair without first knowing what is good or fair. So there must be goodness and fairness in the world that it is being compared to. Right? So it seems to me that you believe right and wrong are universal. Why else would you make an argument that it is illogical for God to allow suffering, if you are not arguing that God’s actions are wrong and unfair. You have literally let the cat out of the bag that you believe there is such a thing as universal goodness and fairness.

The world I see is exactly what I'd expect to see if God doesn't exist, namely a random universe with no sign of intelligent design...

I don't believe God per se designed the laws of nature or the universe. I see it more like space and time were willed into existence. I say this because my perception of God is consciousness without form. A wholly foreign concept to us. That rather than consciousness being a late development of the evolution of space and time, it has always existed and is the source or matrix of the physical world. That the physical world is composed of mind stuff. So according to my perception God willed the material world into existence so that he could experience the material world through us.

You on the other hand have no perception of God, so you cannot test anything against that perception of God. You say the universe is random? Hardly. It is governed by information and rules. There was nothing random about the evolution of space and time. It evolved per the rules of nature and everything which had a potential to exist exists because its potentiality was pre-ordained by the laws of nature. It was only a matter of time before the universe became self aware through beings like us who know and create.

In fact, science is literally the study of the order within nature to better understand the order of nature so as to be able to make predictions about the order of nature. Nothing random there at all.

We are here because a meteorite struck the earth, removing the dinos. Mammals existed side by side with the dinos for millions of years but never could out compete them even though the dinos were never smarter than birds. Seems to me we and our self-awareness are the result of a random astronomical event.

 

[ding]

How is suffering illogical? Is happiness illogical too?

You keep trying to make sense of suffering in a vacuum. Is suffering all you see?

You can’t say that something is bad or unfair without first knowing what is good or fair. So there must be goodness and fairness in the world that it is being compared to. Why have you not done a full accounting?

I’m not the one who is bringing up a plan. You are the one who keeps bringing it up. You were given an incredibly rare and wonderful gift. The question is what are you going to do with it. What’s your plan?

What is the logic behind suffering or happiness? If there is an intelligence behind it there must be a logical reason. Agreed? Would you also agree that suffering is not evenly distributed, some, like me, get very little some get more than they can take. Is there a logic you'd like to share?

You make the case that suffering can be good and in some cases that is true. However, I see many cases where the good that comes from suffering doesn't seem to balance the pain it inflicts. There seems to be no logic or intelligence at work.

Happiness and mourning are effects not causes. In and of themselves they are not logical. They are literally reactions. Certain experiences may logically lead to people experiencing those feelings. Then again since humans are involved it is possible that it is not necessarily always logical for them to experience those feelings. So this discussion isn’t about suffering it is about the causes of suffering. Specifically why you believe it is illogical for God (if he is good) to allow the cause of suffering to exist.

Let me flip this around. Why should it be logical for bad things to happen to good people if there is a good God? Because from where I sit the only way that can happen is if God controls every single thing which occurs. That to me is the definition of illogical. Can you tell me how God can can make it so that no bad things happen to anyone without controlling everything even you? So right off the bat I have just proven how stupid your argument is.

Which proposition is less illogical. Yours, God controlling everything? Or mine, good comes from bad. Even you will reject your argument if it means in believing God controlling everything. At least with my argument I can believe that we don’t have complete information. That God does. So it isn't possible for us to fully understand the logic and wisdom of existence. Of course that doesn't mean we have to be complete nincompoops about it. It seems to me that life is quite fair. As near as I can tell the argument that life isn’t fair is based upon errors and exceptions. We live in a logical universe where every effect has a cause. As a rule we control our own destiny. As such our behaviors and actions play a large part in the fruit we bear. To argue that this is not the rule is illogical. So to argue that life is not fair can only come after a thorough investigation of both sides. You can’t say that something is bad or unfair without first knowing what is good or fair. So there must be goodness and fairness in the world that it is being compared to. Furthermore, the true comparison should be made for existing versus not existing. Is there anything in the universe that you are aware of that you would rather be? No. You have already won the cosmic lottery. So how can someone who has won the cosmic lottery dare complain that life isn’t fair.

You can’t possibly understand the good that can come from bad. You have never tried. The fact that you haven't even attempted to make a full accounting shows that you are incapable of understanding the information you have been given.

Where did you get your concept of good from? You can’t know a line is crooked unless you have an idea of what is straight. You can’t say that something is bad or unfair without first knowing what is good or fair. So there must be goodness and fairness in the world that it is being compared to. Right? So it seems to me that you believe right and wrong are universal. Why else would you make an argument that it is illogical for God to allow suffering, if you are not arguing that God’s actions are wrong and unfair. You have literally let the cat out of the bag that you believe there is such a thing as universal goodness and fairness.

The world I see is exactly what I'd expect to see if God doesn't exist, namely a random universe with no sign of intelligent design...

I don't believe God per se designed the laws of nature or the universe. I see it more like space and time were willed into existence. I say this because my perception of God is consciousness without form. A wholly foreign concept to us. That rather than consciousness being a late development of the evolution of space and time, it has always existed and is the source or matrix of the physical world. That the physical world is composed of mind stuff. So according to my perception God willed the material world into existence so that he could experience the material world through us.

You on the other hand have no perception of God, so you cannot test anything against that perception of God. You say the universe is random? Hardly. It is governed by information and rules. There was nothing random about the evolution of space and time. It evolved per the rules of nature and everything which had a potential to exist exists because its potentiality was pre-ordained by the laws of nature. It was only a matter of time before the universe became self aware through beings like us who know and create.

In fact, science is literally the study of the order within nature to better understand the order of nature so as to be able to make predictions about the order of nature. Nothing random there at all.

We are here because a meteorite struck the earth, removing the dinos. Mammals existed side by side with the dinos for millions of years but never could out compete them even though the dinos were never smarter than birds. Seems to me we and our self-awareness are the result of a random astronomical event.

We are here because the potential for intelligence to exist existed before space and time itself.

Space and time were created from nothing and evolved until beings which know and create arose.

 

[james bond]

I’m still waiting for your empirical evidence for god. You said you had some.

Haha. See what I mean. You have not passed go. You have not collected the $200.

This is why you are a simpleton and why it's a waste of time to explain.

I've provided so much and have explained God's creation in six days. You cannot explain why the universe, Earth, everything in it including us are here. You put the creation science theories and the evidence together and the other explanations fall by the wayside.

So far, I've seen much greater men than you die without learning about their own theories. Carl Sagan died not understanding why there was no alien contact. Stephen Hawking died not knowing why we are here. Thus, we are waiting for you to kick the bucket saying, "I'm still waiting for your empirical evidence..."

The greatest thing an atheist ever said was, "God has to convince every single non-believer that he exists." Pain and suffering is a strong persuader.

 

[james bond]

Now, does it give me the right to condemn Taz and punish him directly? No. We have had many holier than thou people who end up doing this. They may think it's fair to say God hates this and that. They may say it's okay to condemn them, tie them to the stake, and get rid of them. Is this what you're accusing me of?

Good. Your reading comprehension is spot on, because that is exactly what you are doing.

Nobody should be able to tell another person what God will or won't do with someone else. Why? Because if you aren't the person in question, you don't know what that person's relationship is with their Higher Power, all you have is your interpretations of what you THINK God would do with that person.

Like I said further up the thread, I think that God is too big to be contained in just one dogma or religion. Personally, I believe that most religions are a reflection of ONE facet of God, because most of them say pretty much the same thing.

I personally think that as long as you recognize that there is a God in your life, and you make a serious effort to include Him in your life and live as you think He would want you to, you won't have much problem at all.

But the ones who don't take responsibility for their own actions (most Christians, because they think that because they are "saved" and don't have to worry about sinning), or those who judge others harshly without finding out about that person's circumstances might find that those are 2 of the worst sins.

Matter of fact, the original sin committed in the Garden was not taking responsibility for their actions when Adam and Eve were caught with the apple. I can't help but wonder how much different things would be if Adam had simply said "yep, I ate it because I was curious. Is there something I can do to fix the situation?" instead of blaming Eve, who then blamed the Serpent.

My comprehension is spot on, but you take what I said out of context. You need to understand how God works. You need to understand what Taz has been saying. And then you come to all your grandiose conclusion about Christians. Your reading comprehension is way off.

 

[james bond]

So you’re saying that god is like a police state. God’s watching what we do to punish us if we step out of line?

You know, I kinda thought that for a few years growing up, but have since figured it out. No, God didn't give us the 7 Noahide commandments of the 10 Commandments just so He could punish us for not following them, He gave them to us to help us grow and survive.

The first 3 commandments tell us to not disrespect God, not to take His name in vain, and to not have any other Gods besides Him. Why? Because He won't help you if you piss Him off by being disrespectful or praying to other Gods.

Thou shalt not murder. Why? If you murder someone, then one of the murdered person's loved ones may come after you for revenge and kill you.

Thou shalt not steal. Why? If you steal something from someone, they may want to kill you.

Thou shalt not bear false witness. Why? Telling the truth is crucial, and if you lie to your doctor about your symptoms, they might miss something and you die.

Honor thy mother and father. They are the ones that brought you here to this world and gave you life. Without them, you wouldn't exist.

Remember the sabbath day. Why? If you don't take some time off to relax and talk with God, you might get stressed and die from a heart attack.

Thou shalt not commit adultery. Why? If you have sex on the sly with someone else's SO, they may want to hunt you down and hurt or kill you.

Thou shalt not covet. Why? If you are jealous of what your neighbor has, you might be tempted to steal it, or possibly hurt them to get it, which is against 2 other commands.

The way I see it, the 10 Commandments are there to help us keep from messing things up and killing each other.

But, then again, I came around to that thought a few conversations with my roomie when we had been discussing the 613 mitzvoht that the Jews follow. Not every rule is for every Jewish person, because it covers everyone in the community, and what is required for a butcher isn't the same as what is required for a priest. The 613 mitzvoht according to the rabbi giving the lecture was so that the community as a whole would be functioning properly and running smooth.

The Ten Commandments are a summary of the 613 laws in the OT. What we realize is that we cannot perfectly follow it like Jesus. It means we end up as sinners and need to be saved by God's mercy and grace.