Only I can judge God. I is you if you choose to be.

[emilynghiem]

"Yes. At least to those Christians who do not recognize the good in that evil and why it must stay here and why we must do some evil to survive.
Let me explain.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.

Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.

Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

Regards
DL

Dear GIA and DL:
1. First, the fact that God gave us free will before we had the ability to master this maturely is God's responsibility. The whole issue of why God sacrificed Jesus on the Cross is the way God provided correction for that. By introducing Jesus on our earthly realm, then this divine grace allows the cycle of suffering to be broken that otherwise would keep going on as part of the "natural learning curve." Just because evil exists does not mean such actions need to keep happening! the point is to prevent evil thoughts from escalating into evil actions.

2. If you read "Glimpses of the Devil" by Scott Peck, there are some forces of evil that have NOTHING to do with ANYTHING man created. These are purely on the spiritual level that Jesus governs and has sole authority. The part that IS for man to take responsibility is FORGIVENESS, so that these evil energies or spirits do not attach themselves to our minds or memories and make us sick. We can do the diagnostic and asking for forgiveness part of the process; but only God/Jesus can remove some of the evil forces that impose themselves.

That part is NOT within man's control. I urge you to read this book, and also HEALING by Francis MacNutt if you want to understand the difference in levels between prayers and changes that we CAN control and choose by free will, and levels beyond that we cannot.

Thank you and I hope this clarifies and makes a difference.
if you do not distinguish the two levels, then you are putting too much responsibility
on man, for things like cancer and mental/criminal illness that are not in someone's control.

The most we can do is identify memories/perceptions/conflicts that are not resolved or forgiven which are PREVENTING the mind/body from healing, but it is the power of higher grace that allows these unforgiveable ills and wrongs to be released, and not from us.

We don't have the ability on our own to forgive all things on the level required in order to be spiritually free from all disease and death caused by these problems in the world. At some point, we ask for higher help to forgive things that otherwise keep us stuck in suffering.

We cannot "will" all things away, and where we reach our limits as human beings, that is when it is our responsibility to ask for higher help to overcome or let go and let God.

It does not mean all things will be fixed, but neither does it mean evil should continue either.

 

[April]

One doesn't have to watch the entire video to spot the typical atheist rant.

The notion that to resist evil is "preposterous" is only so when framed in the superficial manner used in the video. To turn the othe cheek was clearly--to everyone except atheists, apparently--a moral rule for everyday life, not intended in the extremist examples presented in the clip.

Regards the idea that Christ forgiving sin leads to an exoneration of the guilty shows the atheist ability to 'pick and choose' Bible passages with at least the same dexterity as strict fundamentalist Christians, with whom the atheist actually has a great deal in common, btw. Vengence is Mine, says the Lord. The video maker is apparently familiar with the Bible--it's hard to see how he completely missed the huge number of passages in both Testaments whereby God warns that He will repay sin. Christ did not die so that humans go scott free. He died so that when humans kill themselves with their own sin--the wages of sin is death--He resurrects, restores, purifies [with Godly fire] and makes new. Hence the Christian paradigm of the 'new birth'. God will not be mocked, what a man sows, he shall reap.

This ties in with the other notions presented in the video, that forgiveness can only be granted by the one wronged and that Jesus 'degrades' love by commanding that we love all indiscriminately.

Your automatic rejection of Christ as God is a major stumbling block to you. That is, the presupposition--by 'freethinkers' who mock Christians for their presuppositions--that Jesus was only a man, which is the only context in which your charges make any sense at all. Jesus as God, on the other hand, upholds the principle that all intentional sin--that of the atheist, Christian, Hindu, etc.--will be recompensed. In this proper context, it is perfectly logical that God's nature is first to forgive all (all are thus destined to be saved), because He loves all. What you (and most Christians, for that matter) seem wholly unaware of is that salvation lies in the very destruction of that which causes sin within the individual. Hence, evil is destroyed and good brought forth, healing, for example, even those whose hatred for God runs so deep that they invent illogical charges against Christ, who rip and tear and crucify Him over and over. (This was done before, btw, some 2000 years ago, and how did Jesus respond to His detractors? "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do." Someday we will all greatly appreciate this.) Becasue you reject Who Jesus was, you have little understanding of what He did, what He taught or what it means, and spend your time and efforts ripping and tearing the very One who will wash both of us clean in the end.

Worship yourself as god if you must. I'll stick with the real God, whose ways are actually logical and ring true.

You say God will destroy evil.
Why did he create it in the first place?

Scriptures do say that he created it for his pleasure so why would he destroy something that gives him pleasure?

You are a Universalist and so am I in the sense that I too believe that God loves us all and that means that he would never condemn us in the first place and that means we do not need saving.

As to forgiveness.
If your child does a sin of some kind against you, who should he seek forgiveness from first?

You or God?

Does the victim, you in this case, get closure first, or does a God who cannot possibly be hurt by those he created, ---- and are doing exactly as programmed by their, --- to you, --- God given natures?

Regards
DL

Evil is not a creation, but an action.

Sweet and to the point...thank you H-Kitty.

 

[GreatestIam]

[q

It does not mean all things will be fixed, but neither does it mean evil should continue either.

And you think that the only way God could set things better is to have us embrace satanic immorality by embracing human sacrifice and the insane notion that we should profit from the murder of an innocent man and God's own son. You must think God to be quite stupid and immoral.



"Test all things"
1 Thessalonians. 5:21

No noble and gracious God would demand the sacrifice of a so called son just to prove it's benevolence.

Regards
DL

 

[Hellokitty]

You say God will destroy evil.
Why did he create it in the first place?

Scriptures do say that he created it for his pleasure so why would he destroy something that gives him pleasure?

You are a Universalist and so am I in the sense that I too believe that God loves us all and that means that he would never condemn us in the first place and that means we do not need saving.

As to forgiveness.
If your child does a sin of some kind against you, who should he seek forgiveness from first?

You or God?

Does the victim, you in this case, get closure first, or does a God who cannot possibly be hurt by those he created, ---- and are doing exactly as programmed by their, --- to you, --- God given natures?

Regards
DL

Evil is not a creation, but an action.

Thanks for the lack of apologetics with the above issues.

Keep up the good work. Satan will love you for not defending your God.

In this clip there are some kinds of actions as you are referring to. Do you conclude the same verdict for God?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx7irFN2gdI]God on Trial: The Verdict - YouTube[/ame]

Regards
DL

A child falls off his bike and bust open his lip. His father takes him to the emergency room and a Dr. stitches up his lip. The child cries out in pain to the father. The father has a morally sufficient reason to allow the Dr. to stitch the child's lip so that it may heal even though it will cause the child to suffer. The father does not experience any physical pain, his love for the child allows allows him to enter into the child's suffering

From our limited perspective we are not capable of understanding the reason why God allows evil. Our human limitations prevent us from understanding why God remains sovereign over innocent evil.

So while the clip you provided shows God being put on trial and found guilty, the movie ends with the reality that one can not live without God.

 

[GreatestIam]

Evil is not a creation, but an action.

Thanks for the lack of apologetics with the above issues.

Keep up the good work. Satan will love you for not defending your God.

In this clip there are some kinds of actions as you are referring to. Do you conclude the same verdict for God?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx7irFN2gdI]God on Trial: The Verdict - YouTube[/ame]

Regards
DL

A child falls off his bike and bust open his lip. His father takes him to the emergency room and a Dr. stitches up his lip. The child cries out in pain to the father. The father has a morally sufficient reason to allow the Dr. to stitch the child's lip so that it may heal even though it will cause the child to suffer. The father does not experience any physical pain, his love for the child allows allows him to enter into the child's suffering

From our limited perspective we are not capable of understanding the reason why God allows evil. Our human limitations prevent us from understanding why God remains sovereign over innocent evil.

So while the clip you provided shows God being put on trial and found guilty, the movie ends with the reality that one can not live without God.

God can't even do a simple stich. Oh well.

He sure can murder a lot of children and babies though.
Don't understand it.

Just let your limited intellect love the murderer of children and God who endorses rape and slavery.



Real good moral position that.

Regards
DL

 

[Hellokitty]

Thanks for the lack of apologetics with the above issues.

Keep up the good work. Satan will love you for not defending your God.

In this clip there are some kinds of actions as you are referring to. Do you conclude the same verdict for God?

God on Trial: The Verdict - YouTube

Regards
DL

A child falls off his bike and bust open his lip. His father takes him to the emergency room and a Dr. stitches up his lip. The child cries out in pain to the father. The father has a morally sufficient reason to allow the Dr. to stitch the child's lip so that it may heal even though it will cause the child to suffer. The father does not experience any physical pain, his love for the child allows allows him to enter into the child's suffering

From our limited perspective we are not capable of understanding the reason why God allows evil. Our human limitations prevent us from understanding why God remains sovereign over innocent evil.

So while the clip you provided shows God being put on trial and found guilty, the movie ends with the reality that one can not live without God.

God can't even do a simple stich. Oh well.

He sure can murder a lot of children and babies though.
Don't understand it.

Just let your limited intellect love the murderer of children and God who endorses rape and slavery.



Real good moral position that.

Regards
DL

God is justice so nothing he does is unjust. God has the right to give and take life according to his will and he also has the right to offer mercy to the innocent.

God does not endorse rape or slavery.

 

[GreatestIam]

Have you even read your bible?

Rape in the Bible


So you think it good justice for God to harden Pharaoh’s soft heart just so he could murder the first born of Egypt. Wow.


As to slavery and rape try wondering why Exodus 21; 20-21 gives instructions on how to beat your slave?

Slavery in the Bible

Come back with a proper apology instead of just a denial or don’t bother your better thinkers who are led by facts and not your man made dogma and lies.
Or is your bible lying to you?

Regards
DL

 

[Hellokitty]

Have you even read your bible?

Rape in the Bible


So you think it good justice for God to harden Pharaoh’s soft heart just so he could murder the first born of Egypt. Wow.


As to slavery and rape try wondering why Exodus 21; 20-21 gives instructions on how to beat your slave?

Slavery in the Bible

Come back with a proper apology instead of just a denial or don’t bother your better thinkers who are led by facts and not your man made dogma and lies.
Or is your bible lying to you?

Regards
DL

Your asking if I have read the bible posting 2 links to evil bible.com.

 

[GreatestIam]

Have you even read your bible?

Rape in the Bible


So you think it good justice for God to harden Pharaoh’s soft heart just so he could murder the first born of Egypt. Wow.


As to slavery and rape try wondering why Exodus 21; 20-21 gives instructions on how to beat your slave?

Slavery in the Bible

Come back with a proper apology instead of just a denial or don’t bother your better thinkers who are led by facts and not your man made dogma and lies.
Or is your bible lying to you?

Regards
DL

Your asking if I have read the bible posting 2 links to evil bible.com.

If you would have found errors you would have pointed them out.

Go away with your one line denial and childidsh apologetics. You are making my case for the silliness of believers who have not even read their bible.

Regards
DL

 

[Not2BSubjugated]

A child falls off his bike and bust open his lip. His father takes him to the emergency room and a Dr. stitches up his lip. The child cries out in pain to the father. The father has a morally sufficient reason to allow the Dr. to stitch the child's lip so that it may heal even though it will cause the child to suffer. The father does not experience any physical pain, his love for the child allows allows him to enter into the child's suffering

From our limited perspective we are not capable of understanding the reason why God allows evil. Our human limitations prevent us from understanding why God remains sovereign over innocent evil.

So while the clip you provided shows God being put on trial and found guilty, the movie ends with the reality that one can not live without God.

God can't even do a simple stich. Oh well.

He sure can murder a lot of children and babies though.
Don't understand it.

Just let your limited intellect love the murderer of children and God who endorses rape and slavery.



Real good moral position that.

Regards
DL

God is justice so nothing he does is unjust. God has the right to give and take life according to his will and he also has the right to offer mercy to the innocent.

God does not endorse rape or slavery.

So if God is justice, then all he does is just, correct?

Therefore the murder of all the first born sons of Egypt to account for the sins of Pharoah was just.

What you're saying, therefore, is that it's just to murder a child for the crimes of his nation's leader, over whose actions that child has zero control.

So if justice is meted out properly, a person truly has no control over whether or not they'll be murdered. True justice, for the common person, is basically a roll of the dice?

And this about "he has the right" isn't really a rebuttal. I have the right to call a handicapped child a fuckin retard to his face until he breaks down crying in his wheelchair. The fact that I have that right doesn't mean I'm not a prick for exercising it, does it?

 

[Hellokitty]

Have you even read your bible?

Rape in the Bible


So you think it good justice for God to harden Pharaoh’s soft heart just so he could murder the first born of Egypt. Wow.


As to slavery and rape try wondering why Exodus 21; 20-21 gives instructions on how to beat your slave?

Slavery in the Bible

Come back with a proper apology instead of just a denial or don’t bother your better thinkers who are led by facts and not your man made dogma and lies.
Or is your bible lying to you?

Regards
DL

Your asking if I have read the bible posting 2 links to evil bible.com.

If you would have found errors you would have pointed them out.

Go away with your one line denial and childidsh apologetics. You are making my case for the silliness of believers who have not even read their bible.

Regards
DL

Okay I'll play along. Are you making the claim God does exist but is evil in nature? or that because evil exists proves there is no God?

 

[Hellokitty]

God can't even do a simple stich. Oh well.

He sure can murder a lot of children and babies though.
Don't understand it.

Just let your limited intellect love the murderer of children and God who endorses rape and slavery.



Real good moral position that.

Regards
DL

God is justice so nothing he does is unjust. God has the right to give and take life according to his will and he also has the right to offer mercy to the innocent.

God does not endorse rape or slavery.

So if God is justice, then all he does is just, correct?

Therefore the murder of all the first born sons of Egypt to account for the sins of Pharoah was just.

What you're saying, therefore, is that it's just to murder a child for the crimes of his nation's leader, over whose actions that child has zero control.

So if justice is meted out properly, a person truly has no control over whether or not they'll be murdered. True justice, for the common person, is basically a roll of the dice?

And this about "he has the right" isn't really a rebuttal. I have the right to call a handicapped child a fuckin retard to his face until he breaks down crying in his wheelchair. The fact that I have that right doesn't mean I'm not a prick for exercising it, does it?

What sins do you think Pharaoh had committed?

 

[LOki]

That's another one of Satans' scams: Convincing you that YOU are a God!

Yes, Humans are capable of amazing things, but we are not and will never be Gods.

Oh. I don't know if that's at all supported by the evidence of your scriptures.

A bunch of stone-age dickweeds almost did it somewhere in the vicinity of Iraq.

And before that, we were just one bite from a different apple away.

 

[GreatestIam]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y]1A Hidden Meanings In Bible - YouTube[/ame]

You will enjoy this speaker. Please have a look.

Regards
DL

 

[PratchettFan]

Evil is not a creation, but an action.[/QUOTE]

I don't think so. I think evil is a perception. It is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Avatar4321]

That's another one of Satans' scams: Convincing you that YOU are a God!

Yes, Humans are capable of amazing things, but we are not and will never be Gods.

Then why do the scriptures say "Ye are gods"?

 

[Avatar4321]

BTW, you aren't judging God. Only yourself

 

[ima]

That's another one of Satans' scams: Convincing you that YOU are a God!

Yes, Humans are capable of amazing things, but we are not and will never be Gods.

Then why do the scriptures say "Ye are gods"?

Av, doesn't your god come from a faraway planet called kolob?

 

[CrackedSkull]

I see old GIA is still at it.....you know me from another forum under a different name. Long time no see.

 

[GreatestIam]

Evil is not a creation, but an action.

I don't think so. I think evil is a perception. It is in the eye of the beholder.[/QUOTE]

I agree.
What is in the eye of the beholder or what he perceives is an action. Right?

Regards
DL