One swiftboat veteran officially discredited

[DKSuddeth]

Military records counter a Kerry critic
Fellow skipper's citation refers to enemy fire.

WASHINGTON - Newly obtained military records of one of Sen. John F. Kerry's most vocal critics, who has accused the Democratic presidential candidate of lying about his wartime record to win medals, contradict his own version of events.

In newspaper interviews and a best-selling book, Larry Thurlow, who commanded a Navy Swift boat alongside Kerry in Vietnam, has strongly disputed Kerry's claim that the Massachusetts Democrat's boat came under fire during a mission in Viet Cong-controlled territory on March 13, 1969. Kerry won a Bronze Star for his actions that day.

But Thurlow's military records, portions of which were released yesterday to The Washington Post under the Freedom of Information Act, contain several references to "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire" directed at "all units" of the five-boat flotilla. Thurlow won his own Bronze Star that day, and the citation praises him for providing assistance to a damaged Swift boat "despite enemy bullets flying about him."

As one of five Swift boat skippers who led the raid up the Bay Hap River, Thurlow was a direct participant in the disputed events. He is also a leading member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a public advocacy group of Vietnam veterans dismayed by Kerry's subsequent antiwar activities, which has aired a controversial television advertisement attacking his war record.

In interviews and written reminiscences, Kerry has described how his 50-foot patrol boat came under fire from the banks of the Bay Hap after a mine explosion disabled another U.S. patrol boat. According to Kerry and members of his crew, the firing continued as an injured Kerry leaned over the bow of his ship to rescue a Special Forces officer who was blown overboard in a second explosion.

'Constant enemy small arms fire'
Last month, Thurlow swore in an affidavit that Kerry was "not under fire" when he fished Lt. James Rassmann out of the water. He described Kerry's Bronze Star citation, which says that all units involved came under "small arms and automatic weapons fire," as "totally fabricated."

"I never heard a shot," Thurlow said in his affidavit, which was released by Swift Boats Veterans for Truth. The group claims the backing of more than 250 Vietnam veterans, including a majority of Kerry's fellow boat commanders.

A document recommending Thurlow for the Bronze Star noted that all his actions "took place under constant enemy small arms fire which LTJG THURLOW completely ignored in providing immediate assistance" to the disabled boat and its crew. The citation states that all other units in the flotilla also came under fire.

"It's like a Hollywood presentation here, which wasn't the case," Thurlow said last night after being read the full text of his Bronze Star citation. "My personal feeling was always that I got the award for coming to the rescue of the boat that was mined. This casts doubt on anybody's awards. It is sickening and disgusting."

Thurlow said he would consider his award "fraudulent" if coming under enemy fire was the basis for it. "I am here to state that we weren't under fire," he said. He speculated that Kerry could have been the source of at least some of the language used in the citation.

In a telephone interview Tuesday evening after he attended a Swift Boat Veterans strategy session in an Arlington hotel, Thurlow said he lost his Bronze Star citation more than 20 years ago. He said he was unwilling to authorize release of his military records because he feared attempts by the Kerry campaign to discredit him and other anti-Kerry veterans.

The Post filed an independent request for the documents with the National Personnel Records Center in St. Louis, which is the central repository for veterans' records. The documents were faxed to The Post by officials at the records center yesterday.

Thurlow and other anti-Kerry veterans have repeatedly alleged that Kerry was the author of an after-action report that described how his boat came under enemy fire. Kerry campaign researchers dispute that assertion, and there is no convincing documentary evidence to settle the argument. As the senior skipper in the flotilla, Thurlow might have been expected to write the after-action report for March 13, but he said that Kerry routinely "duked the system" to present his version of events.

For much of the episode, Kerry was not in a position to know firsthand what was happening on Thurlow's boat, as Kerry's boat had sped down the river after the mine exploded under another boat. He later returned to provide assistance to the stricken boat.

Thurlow, an oil industry worker and former teacher in Kansas, said he was angry with Kerry for his antiwar activities on his return to the United States and particularly Kerry's claim before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that U.S. troops in Vietnam had committed war crimes "with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command."

msnbc news

 

[Annie]

Dk, what's interesting here is that all along, those at least wanting the Swiftees to get their say, have conceded that the medals are not the point, different people can see the same thing differently.

Note that the article, as well as one in the Washington Post, do not mention Cambodia at all? Just skip over it? This is more of the politics of personal destruction, which you of all I would expect to be furious at.

 

[freeandfun1]

What about the article that shows that Kerry's number one supporter (the black guy - don't remember his name) could NOT have been there the day Kerry got his medal as he had been medivac'd weeks before for serious injuries.

On one hand the dems say that not being on the same boat, the critics could NOT have experienced the same events. Now they say that all five boats were together, so they all shared the same events.

The Kerry campaign can't keep their stories straight.

Is it Bob Kerrey or John Kerry that is running with Edwards? :spank3:

 

[DKSuddeth]

What about the article that shows that Kerry's number one supporter (the black guy - don't remember his name) could NOT have been there the day Kerry got his medal as he had been medivac'd weeks before for serious injuries.

On one hand the dems say that not being on the same boat, the critics could NOT have experienced the same events. Now they say that all five boats were together, so they all shared the same events.

The Kerry campaign can't keep their stories straight.

Is it Bob Kerrey or John Kerry that is running with Edwards? :spank3:

It's MY opinion that in everyones haste to smear the other side that NOBODY can get their story straight.

 

[freeandfun1]

Just curious.....

How can they get his records FAXED to the Kerry camp without his permission, but we can't see Kerry's?

Also, I just requested my recoreds a week ago, and they sent me a reply saying it would take up to 120 days to process the request. It very clearly states when you request your records that if the Veteran is still alive, you MUST get his approval.

I smell a rat and DK, I would hope you would be as pissed at the Kerry camp as you are (I am ASSuming) at the swiftboat vets.

 

[DKSuddeth]

Just curious.....

How can they get his records FAXED to the Kerry camp without his permission, but we can't see Kerry's?

Not sure, I would think the FOIA should apply to both sides equally.

Also, I just requested my recoreds a week ago, and they sent me a reply saying it would take up to 120 days to process the request. It very clearly states when you request your records that if the Veteran is still alive, you MUST get his approval.

I smell a rat and DK, I would hope you would be as pissed at the Kerry camp as you are (I am ASSuming) at the swiftboat vets.

I smell a rat also, it looks like theres a kerry camp insider with regards to the records request.

As far as being pissed, i'm not pissed at either side.....disgusted, but not pissed. As far as I'm concerned the swift boat vets have about a handfuls worth more of credibility than kerry does and thats not much at all.

 

[freeandfun1]

As far as being pissed, i'm not pissed at either side.....disgusted, but not pissed. As far as I'm concerned the swift boat vets have about a handfuls worth more of credibility than kerry does and thats not much at all.

Gotcha. Disgusted is a better term.

 

[Annie]

I like this take, I think it address all of our concerns. The links are really useful:

http://instapundit.com/archives/017254.php

August 19, 2004
WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO GET THE POST LOOKING AT MILITARY RECORDS? A story that's bad for Kerry's critics, I guess. No mention at all of the Cambodia story, though, in which Kerry's critics have been proved right -- and which the Post has ignored.

UPDATE: Charles Austin notices something unusual here:


Isn't it interesting that in the case of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, the "correction" appears on page one above the fold, while the original news was buried on page 19.


Something of a reversal there. There are those who email me to say that focusing on this stuff isn't the best way to get Bush re-elected. Fine, maybe so -- but getting Bush re-elected isn't what I'm about. I like him better than Kerry, true, but he has people paid to get him re-elected, and I'm not one of them. (And given their silence on this issue, maybe talking about it is a bad move for Bush.) But this story seems to me to be absolutely fascinating in that it reveals just how in the tank for the Democrats the mainstream media are, and how little the vaunted Cronkitean claims of objectivity and research and factual accuracy really mean when the chips are down. What's more, lots of people are noticing.

To me, that's a bigger deal than the underlying issue or even, in some ways, the election itself. Elections come and go, politicians come and go, and pretty much all of them turn out to be disappointments one way or another. But the "Fourth Estate" is a big part of the unelected Permanent Government that in many ways does more to run the country than the politicians. And it's unravelling before our very eyes, which I think is the biggest story of the election so far. (More thoughts in the updates here.)

posted at 06:51 AM by Glenn Reynolds

 

[Annie]

This story is going to come out, no matter what:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=12205_WaPo_Suddenly_Discovers_Swift_Boat_Veterans

The shameless bias of mainstream media in favor of John F. Kerry has been one of the big stories of this campaign. Case in point: the Washington Post has totally ignored the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and their allegations against Kerry for weeks—until today, when they discovered a small discrepancy in one of Swiftee Larry Thurlow’s statements.

That story goes on page A01 of the Post: Records Counter a Critic of Kerry. Will WaPo readers wonder why this story suddenly pops up on the front page, when they’ve read nothing about it until today?
posted by Charles at 7:26 AM PST |

 

[Jimmyeatworld]

Kerry is now attacking Bush (imagine that) saying that Bush is funding the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, and that Bush is letting them "do his dirty work for him".

This is all really starting to piss me off. Bush very clearly stated that ads by "soft money" groups should be stopped, long before there was any response from Kerry. Where has Kerry been during the other dozen things MoveOn.org put out there? Where was Kerry's outrage at Michael Moore's propaganda movie? Hell, Michael Moore was front and center during the DNC for crying out loud!

I guess when Al Gore, MoveOn.org, and Michael Moore is doing the "dirty work" for you, it's perfectly okay. By the way, has Kerry ever come out himself and denied anything the swift boat vets have said? How does he feel about getting people to do the lying for you?

 

[Annie]

Kerry is now attacking Bush (imagine that) saying that Bush is funding the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, and that Bush is letting them "do his dirty work for him".

This is all really starting to piss me off. Bush very clearly stated that ads by "soft money" groups should be stopped, long before there was any response from Kerry. Where has Kerry been during the other dozen things MoveOn.org put out there? Where was Kerry's outrage at Michael Moore's propaganda movie? Hell, Michael Moore was front and center during the DNC for crying out loud!

I guess when Al Gore, MoveOn.org, and Michael Moore is doing the "dirty work" for you, it's perfectly okay. By the way, has Kerry ever come out himself and denied anything the swift boat vets have said? How does he feel about getting people to do the lying for you?

On another thread, I think, I posted the problems for Bush if he were to say anything against the group-not that he would. Kerry is being disingenuous here-to say the least. http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110005498

Cut It Out! No, Wait! Bring It On!
John Kerry is on the defensive over criticism of his Vietnam War record. The Associated Press quotes him:

"Of course, the president keeps telling people he would never question my service to our country. Instead, he watches as a Republican-funded attack group does just that. Well, if he wants to have a debate about our service in Vietnam, here is my answer: 'Bring it on.' "

Note how he flip-flops just in the space of three sentences. "Bring it on," he declares, immediately after whining that the president has brought it on. Of course, the president has not actually brought it on. Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, the "attack group," is an independent "527" organization, just like the pro-Kerry MoveOn.org. For the Bush campaign to coordinate with it--whether to call it off or to bring it on--would be against the law.

Here's another Kerry quote: "More than 30 years ago I learned an important lesson. When you're under attack the best thing to do is turn your boat into the attack. That's what I intend to do today."

Now, "turn your boat into the attack" may be good advice in a combat situation, but international relations require a good deal more subtlety and nuance. Can we really afford such reckless belligerence in the White House?

 

[britinusa]

The media dismissed the Swiftvets out of hand because a Republican from Houston, Texas contributed $150,000 towards the TV ad. That $150,000 represents about 1% of the money George Soros pumped into outfits such as Moveon.org. The media doesn't seem to care about that.

The Kerry campaign has flip-flopped on the Rasmusson incident. You will recall that Kerry said the other boats left the scene and he stayed. Now they've admitted at the Boston convention that it was the other way around. Also, there was not one bullet hole and not one injury (other than the boat that hit a mine) reported after this incident.

In this fascinating battle between the Swiftvets and the Band of Brothers, only one side is changing their stories. You all know which one.

By the way, Larry Thurlow has NOT been discredited. Here is his response to the Washington Post article:

For Immediate Release
Statement By Swift Boat Veterans for Truth Member Larry Thurlow

I am convinced that the language used in my citation for a Bronze Star was language taken directly from John Kerry's report which falsely described the action on the Bay Hap River as action that saw small arms fire and automatic weapons fire from both banks of the river.

To this day, I can say without a doubt in my mind, along with other accounts from my shipmates -- there was no hostile enemy fire directed at my boat or at any of the five boats operating on the river that day.

I submitted no paperwork for a medal nor did I file an after action report describing the incident. To my knowledge, John Kerry was the only officer who filed a report describing his version of the incidents that occurred on the river that day.

It was not until I had left the Navy -- approximately three months after I left the service -- that I was notified that I was to receive a citation for my actions on that day.

I believed then as I believe now that I received my Bronze Star for my efforts to rescue the injured crewmen from swift boat number three and to conduct damage control to prevent that boat from sinking. My boat and several other swift boats went to the aid of our fellow swift boat sailors whose craft was adrift and taking on water. We provided immediate rescue and damage control to prevent boat three from sinking and to offer immediate protection and comfort to the injured crew.

After the mine exploded, leaving swift boat three dead in the water, John Kerry's boat, which was on the opposite side of the river, fled the scene. US Army Special Forces officer Jim Rassmann, who was on Kerry's boat at the time, fell off the boat and into the water. Kerry's boat returned several minutes later -- under no hail of enemy gunfire -- to retrieve Rassmann from the river only seconds before another boat was going to pick him up.

Kerry campaign spokespersons have conflicting accounts of this incident -- the latest one being that Kerry's boat did leave but only briefly and returned under withering enemy fire to rescue Mr. Rassmann. However, none of the other boats on the river that day reported enemy fire nor was anyone wounded by small arms action. The only damage on that day was done to boat three -- a result of the underwater mine. None of the other swift boats received damage from enemy gunfire.

And in a new development, Kerry campaign officials are now finally acknowledging that while Kerry's boat left the scene, none of the other boats on the river ever left the damaged swift boat. This is a direct contradiction to previous accounts made by Jim Rassmann in the Oregonian newspaper and a direct contradiction to the "No Man Left Behind" theme during the Democratic National Convention.

These ever changing accounts of the Bay Hap River incident by Kerry campaign officials leave me asking one question. If no one ever left the scene of the Bay Hap River incident, how could anyone be left behind?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Maybe he kept quiet about the fictitious story and embraced it as well for his own medal. But now, his conscience has gotten the best of him and he's revealing kerry for what he is a calculating scumbag. He's finally doing the right thing, even though he's revealing himself as well. Good for you, Thurlow.

The fact that another might have gone along with the deception initially, doesn't it make it right forever.

 

[Jimmyeatworld]

On another thread, I think, I posted the problems for Bush if he were to say anything against the group-not that he would. Kerry is being disingenuous here-to say the least. http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110005498

Yeah, I saw that after I already posted here. That's probably why Kerry is going directly at Bush instead of the swift boat vets.

It's all bs. It's just Kerry trying to make it look like Bush was behind the whole thing. Even the MoveOn.org ad ends with something like "President Bush, stop these ads!" as if he had to power to do so. They aren't his ads.

 

[Annie]

I think the Bush people would be well served making a collage of moveon. ads and then demanding that Kerry condemn them. apples and apples.

 

[DKSuddeth]

When someone is given a medal theres a citation with it that describes the incident and why the medal is being awarded, so I have serious doubts about thurlows statement here - It was not until I had left the Navy -- approximately three months after I left the service -- that I was notified that I was to receive a citation for my actions on that day.

I believed then as I believe now that I received my Bronze Star for my efforts to rescue the injured crewmen from swift boat number three and to conduct damage control to prevent that boat from sinking. My boat and several other swift boats went to the aid of our fellow swift boat sailors whose craft was adrift and taking on water. We provided immediate rescue and damage control to prevent boat three from sinking and to offer immediate protection and comfort to the injured crew.

He would have known from day one of receiving the star that he was awarded because he endured small arms fire, NOT rescuing his fellow crewman.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

When someone is given a medal theres a citation with it that describes the incident and why the medal is being awarded, so I have serious doubts about thurlows statement here - It was not until I had left the Navy -- approximately three months after I left the service -- that I was notified that I was to receive a citation for my actions on that day.

It makes sense if the whole scenario was a fiction invented after the fact by an ambitious lying John Kerry.

I believed then as I believe now that I received my Bronze Star for my efforts to rescue the injured crewmen from swift boat number three and to conduct damage control to prevent that boat from sinking. My boat and several other swift boats went to the aid of our fellow swift boat sailors whose craft was adrift and taking on water. We provided immediate rescue and damage control to prevent boat three from sinking and to offer immediate protection and comfort to the injured crew.

He would have known from day one of receiving the star that he was awarded because he endured small arms fire, NOT rescuing his fellow crewman.

It's possible that those who gave him his medal kind of glossed over the reason, considering it was merely to support the fictitious accomplishments of the ambitious lying John Kerry.

 

[DKSuddeth]

It makes sense if the whole scenario was a fiction invented after the fact by an ambitious lying John Kerry.


It's possible that those who gave him his medal kind of glossed over the reason, considering it was merely to support the fictitious accomplishments of the ambitious lying John Kerry.

and the odds of that? nevermind, I can already guess that your partisanship of republicans will say it's highly likely. After all, we all know that the military branches cater to democrats, wimpy officers, and medal seekers.

 

[britinusa]

Its been said many times before, but I'll say it again. John Kerry can end all this by signing an SF-180, which will authorize the release of ALL his service records to the public.
The Kerry campaign claims they've already released everything. Fine, then Kerry should have no qualms about signing the form. Come on, Senator. Its just a signature. It'll only take a few seconds of your time. Surely, your schedule isn't that busy. You can find time to go skiing in Idaho; you can find time to listen to the foul-mouthed Whoopi Goldberg. Sign the bloody form!
The fact that he has refused to do so speaks volumes, doesn't it?

 

[DKSuddeth]

Its been said many times before, but I'll say it again. John Kerry can end all this by signing an SF-180, which will authorize the release of ALL his service records to the public.
The Kerry campaign claims they've already released everything. Fine, then Kerry should have no qualms about signing the form. Come on, Senator. Its just a signature. It'll only take a few seconds of your time. Surely, your schedule isn't that busy. You can find time to go skiing in Idaho; you can find time to listen to the foul-mouthed Whoopi Goldberg. Sign the bloody form!
The fact that he has refused to do so speaks volumes, doesn't it?

it already has, hasn't it?