one of the most courageous decisions he's ever seen a president make.

[GoneBezerk]

Uh, the F-35 is a slealth aircraft which means deep penetration into airspaces like China, not worrying about dropping bombs on terrorists in Afghanistan. We use B-52s to perfrom CAS in Afghanistan and they are not stealthy.

The F-22 cuts will haunt the Air Force for decades. The Chinese are investing their money into stealth aircraft to counter us in the Pacific.

As for nuclear powers (Russia, China and the USA) not worrying about each other's conventional weapons.....that sums up your stupidity. I wonder if China wants that stealth helicopter technology from the UBL raid....it isn't "nuclear stuff."

No his decision to cut F-22s and put more money into the F-35 that has numerous problems is going to bite us in the butt vs the Chinese someday.

No it's not. Ironic that you would tell me that I have no idea of foreign policy and claim that two nuclear powers would ever engage in a conventional war.

The F-35 and F-22 perform two different missions, so they are not interchangeable aircraft. The F-22 makes sure the F-35 can fly into an airspace without counterair threats.

And the mission of the F-35 has been changed from interdiction to CAS, as has the mission of all "fighter jets". In this day and age, CAS is king. That's why the A-10, which was about to be mothballed, is the most popular fixed wing platform now and fighter pilots are struggling to find their relevance.

I loath Rumsfeld, but I'll give him credit for realizing we don't need to be configured to fight the Soviet Union. That is not the enemy we are going to face.

Scrapping the Crusader was a smart move too. The Artillery Branch is struggling to find it's relevance on the modern battlefield too, as mortars, which are man portable and run by the Infantry are usually as much indirect fire as are needed.

 

[Cal]

"Courageous" decisions include making a pre-emptive attack on Iraq and Afghanistan to prevent further attacks. Wars that were PROACTIVE not reactive, and knowing you'll suffer politically.

Ordering SEALS to kill Bin Laden? About as courageous as ordering a Big Mac.

I'm already tired of the left wing's worship of this president. Now, they are making it seem as if he's walked on water.

When did Robert Gates become "left wing"? Go sit in the corner, asshat.

 

[Charles_Main]

...and you're just an idiot. Obama's lone choice was men on the ground doing the job, not airplanes dropping JDAMs on unknown people or just ignoring the situation all together like Bill Clinton did a handful of times in the 90s.

That's because "boot's on the ground" is what is needed in this conflict.

If you want to be intellectually honest, I would expect you to excoriate the relative stupidity of "Shock and Awe".

You were most likely one of those morons that thought we were going to be out of Iraq in six months after we "awed" them with our cool toys, huh?

There was nothing wrong with Shock and Awe. It was extremely effective at it's goal. Which was to quickly break the Resistance of the Organized Iraqi Military. It achieved this goal in Stunningly Efficient Fashion. The Problem is Shock And Awe May be great at dismantling Organized Resistance, but once that is gone and your are fighting an insurgency, and looking for 1 Man. It becomes far less useful.

 

[Cal]

Gates on "courageous" bin Laden raid decision - 60 Minutes - CBS News

...one of the most courageous decisions he's ever seen a president make.

This is coming from a very respected man who was appointed by a Republican President.

You all know I am no fan of Obama, but I do believe this was a very courageous Decision on his part. He presidency was already on shaky ground. A carter Like Failure on this raid could have been the end of his presidency.

It would have been easy for him to listen to his advisers and just Level the place. He was wise, and brave enough to make the right call, even though it put him at the most political Risk. I have to Credit him for that. However it does not make up for what I see is a long line of slow reactions, and poor decisions before this one.

Very gracious post towards President Obama. Not something we see very often from the Right on this board.. Good post, Charles.

 

[GoneBezerk]

Iraq's military was defeated by airpower and missile attacks, the ground troops cleaned up the mess.

The mistake that dragged out the war was preventing the ruling political class from participating in a post-war Saddam country, so they turned into insurgents with help from terrorists that fled Afghanistan.

Shock and awe cut off their heads, we just didn't dispose of the body properly.

...and you're just an idiot. Obama's lone choice was men on the ground doing the job, not airplanes dropping JDAMs on unknown people or just ignoring the situation all together like Bill Clinton did a handful of times in the 90s.

That's because "boot's on the ground" is what is needed in this conflict.

If you want to be intellectually honest, I would expect you to excoriate the relative stupidity of "Shock and Awe".

You were most likely one of those morons that thought we were going to be out of Iraq in six months after we "awed" them with our cool toys, huh?

 

[brokenarrow]

Gee, I love this kinda talk. But you still need a president that will stare down Mexico and remove the illegals.

 

[geauxtohell]

Uh, the F-35 is a slealth aircraft which means deep penetration into airspaces like China, not worrying about dropping bombs on terrorists in Afghanistan. We use B-52s to perfrom CAS in Afghanistan and they are not stealthy.

We also use F-35s, B-2s, A-10s, Apaches, and a slew of other platforms.

We don't need stealth fighter jets, no matter how much it hurts the Air Force's feelings. It's a waste of money. We need CAS.

The F-22 cuts will haunt the Air Force for decades. The Chinese are investing their money into stealth aircraft to counter us in the Pacific.

As for nuclear powers (Russia, China and the USA) not worrying about each other's conventional weapons.....that sums up your stupidity. I wonder if China wants that stealth helicopter technology from the UBL raid....it isn't "nuclear stuff."

Oh, so we are going to engage in air to air combat outside of an actual conflict? I loved that scene in Top Gun too!

 

[geauxtohell]

Iraq's military was defeated by airpower and missile attacks, the ground troops cleaned up the mess.

Which represented about 1% of our time and efforts in Iraq in total.

The mistake that dragged out the war was preventing the ruling political class from participating in a post-war Saddam country, so they turned into insurgents with help from terrorists that fled Afghanistan.

LMFAO. "Insurgents that fled from Afghanistan"?

Shock and awe cut off their heads, we just didn't dispose of the body properly.

No, we didn't cut off the right head. Either way, it's irrelevant. Due to presidential incompetence, we were in the dog fuck in Iraq.

 

[rightwinger]

The other option Obama had was to bomb the compound into oblivion. He could have decided that, but we would never have known if OBL was in the compound. This was very risky. Why?

-the Seals could have been killed
-the mission could have gone terribly wrong, aka Carter's rescue of hostages.
-The Pakistanis could have called out their military, resulting in an international incident.
-OBL may not have been there.

You got to give him the props for making the right call, whether you like him or not.

The raid was the riskiest option by far

I would have bombed the shit out of the compound and figured dead is dead

There is also the option of Republican favorite Ron Paul who would have notified Pakistan to pick him up since it was their country

 

[GoneBezerk]

So says a stupid grunt.

FYI...you are worthless in a war vs China. You can be Rambo and not be worth a dime in a war vs China.

The Air Force and Navy will lead the fight with help from Marines and spec ops.

The Air Force doesn't exist for the Army, sorry to burst your little mind. Now, if the AF went away...the Army would be worthless.

Uh, the F-35 is a slealth aircraft which means deep penetration into airspaces like China, not worrying about dropping bombs on terrorists in Afghanistan. We use B-52s to perfrom CAS in Afghanistan and they are not stealthy.

We also use F-35s, B-2s, A-10s, Apaches, and a slew of other platforms.

We don't need stealth fighter jets, no matter how much it hurts the Air Force's feelings. It's a waste of money. We need CAS.

The F-22 cuts will haunt the Air Force for decades. The Chinese are investing their money into stealth aircraft to counter us in the Pacific.

As for nuclear powers (Russia, China and the USA) not worrying about each other's conventional weapons.....that sums up your stupidity. I wonder if China wants that stealth helicopter technology from the UBL raid....it isn't "nuclear stuff."

Oh, so we are going to engage in air to air combat outside of an actual conflict? I loved that scene in Top Gun too!

 

[Charles_Main]

Gates on "courageous" bin Laden raid decision - 60 Minutes - CBS News



This is coming from a very respected man who was appointed by a Republican President.

You all know I am no fan of Obama, but I do believe this was a very courageous Decision on his part. He presidency was already on shaky ground. A carter Like Failure on this raid could have been the end of his presidency.

It would have been easy for him to listen to his advisers and just Level the place. He was wise, and brave enough to make the right call, even though it put him at the most political Risk. I have to Credit him for that. However it does not make up for what I see is a long line of slow reactions, and poor decisions before this one.

Very gracious post towards President Obama. Not something we see very often from the Right on this board.. Good post, Charles.

Thanks, While I do see this as a courageous decision. I would stop short of agreeing it is the Most Courageous decision by a president ever. That is a tad over the top. Did it take any less courage for carter to order the failed raid to rescue hostages? He had as much if not more on the line. In the end it was not really a hard decision. Leveling the place and possibly never knowing for sure if you got him or not was just not a viable Option.

 

[geauxtohell]

So says a stupid grunt.

LMAO. "Stupid grunt"? You really are insecure aren't you? It's okay, we all realize you have a pogue-ass MOS and have to justify what in the fuck you actually do by claiming to be of a higher intelligence.

FWIW, the Army exists to support the Infantry.

FYI...you are worthless in a war vs China. You can be Rambo and not be worth a dime in a war vs China.

The Air Force and Navy will lead the fight with help from Marines and spec ops.

The Air Force doesn't exist for the Army, sorry to burst your little mind. Now, if the AF went away...the Army would be worthless.

LMAO. More delusions of relevance. The Air Force exists to give the Army a ride to the fight. No war was ever won without boots on the ground.

A grunt doesn't have to question his usefulness and it's not terribly shocking the Infantry Officers fill a disproportionate level of General Officer jobs.

 

[JimH52]

"Courageous" decisions include making a pre-emptive attack on Iraq and Afghanistan to prevent further attacks. Wars that were PROACTIVE not reactive, and knowing you'll suffer politically.

Ordering SEALS to kill Bin Laden? About as courageous as ordering a Big Mac.

I'm already tired of the left wing's worship of this president. Now, they are making it seem as if he's walked on water.

When did Robert Gates become "left wing"? Go sit in the corner, asshat.

He is being honest, not partisan. which obviously is impossible for many of the far right Hacks on this board.

 

[DaGoose]

Dropping bombs on the compound was off the table because the damage would've been too great, the evidence would've been destroyed and innocents would've died in and around the compound.

The 1 option was special ops going in and identifying UBL, most likely to catch him but ended up killing him when he pushed the woman towards them.

So there should be no parade for Obama's decision, but you can do it around your basement.

The other option Obama had was to bomb the compound into oblivion. He could have decided that, but we would never have known if OBL was in the compound. This was very risky. Why?

-the Seals could have been killed
-the mission could have gone terribly wrong, aka Carter's rescue of hostages.
-The Pakistanis could have called out their military, resulting in an international incident.
-OBL may not have been there.

You got to give him the props for making the right call, whether you like him or not.

Let's ask the families of those murdered on 9/11 whether or not there should be a parade for a courageous decision that took out the murderer.

And let me give you a hint: Reply BELOW the post your quoting. It helps things flow easier and easier to follow.

.

 

[Charles_Main]

"Courageous" decisions include making a pre-emptive attack on Iraq and Afghanistan to prevent further attacks. Wars that were PROACTIVE not reactive, and knowing you'll suffer politically.

Ordering SEALS to kill Bin Laden? About as courageous as ordering a Big Mac.

I'm already tired of the left wing's worship of this president. Now, they are making it seem as if he's walked on water.

When did Robert Gates become "left wing"? Go sit in the corner, asshat.

He is being honest, not partisan. which obviously is impossible for many of the far right Hacks on this board.

So you think all the Far Left hacks are Honest and not Partisan in here? Really? LOL

if you are saying that, You know what you are? A dishonest Far Left Hack.

 

[Charles_Main]

LMAO. More delusions of relevance. The Air Force exists to give the Army a ride to the fight. No war was ever won without boots on the ground.

A grunt doesn't have to question his usefulness and it's not terribly shocking the Infantry Officers fill a disproportionate level of General Officer jobs.

While you may be right that no war has been won with air Power Alone. In modern Warfare. no war will be won with out superior Air Power either. The Air Force is a more important, and intricate part of war now than ever. Ask any Grunt on the ground how they feel about the guys in the Sky. They love them, and would not want to be out there with out knowing, the most powerful and deadly air force in the history of the world. Is up above their heads waiting to come to their aid.

You should read the book Night Stalkers. About the Armies Special Forces air transport and combat Brigade. A couple of the stories in there, of things that really happened. Really highlight the power of Air Power. one in particular where like 5 Guys that crashed a helo on a mountain in Afghan. Hold off over 1000 Enemy forces assaulting their position. With the judicious use of close air support. It is a pretty amazing story among many Amazing stories in that book.

 

[geauxtohell]

While you may be right that no war has been won with air Power Alone. In modern Warfare. no war will be won with out superior Air Power either. The Air Force is a more important, and intricate part of war now than ever. Ask any Grunt on the ground how they feel about the guys in the Sky. They love them, and would not want to be out there with out knowing, the most powerful and deadly air force in the history of the world. Is up above their heads waiting to come to their aid.

You should read the book Night Stalkers. About the Armies Special Forces air transport and combat Brigade. A couple of the stories in there, of things that really happened. Really highlight the power of Air Power. one in particular where like 5 Guys that crashed a helo on a mountain in Afghan. Hold off over 1000 Enemy forces assaulting their position. With the judicious use of close air support. It is a pretty amazing story among many Amazing stories in that book.

I don't have a problem with the Air Force. I have a problem with some *supposed* Air Force officer claiming the infantry is useless.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Courageous? Bullshit. That's like saying I'm courageous for not sticking my hand in the BBQ pit.

It was the ONLY decision.

 

[JimH52]

Courageous? Bullshit. That's like saying I'm courageous for not sticking my hand in the BBQ pit.

It was the ONLY decision.

Again, Gates was being honest, not partisan. That is your opinion....General.

 

[Truthmatters]

Can you imagine the chest beating if Bush had gotten OBL?


There are some who see only party.