On That End Of Life Clause

[Zoom-boing]

So, given that by the stated stats the US of KKKA ranks 37th in health care why does everybody flock to this shithole to get health care? Why don't they flock to France? doyathink?

We're ranked 37th b/c that is the WHO ranking, and they are a soclialist organiztion. We get demoted b/c we don't have socialized medicine, so they have to make us look bad somehow. Good luck in getting anyone to answer why every prominent person in the world comes to the US for any critical medical purposes.

Don't they also factor in other things in that number, like accidents and such. rather than just focusing on health care, therefore skewing that number?

 

[Coyote]

So, given that by the stated stats the US of KKKA ranks 37th in health care why does everybody flock to this shithole to get health care? Why don't they flock to France? doyathink?

"Everyone" doesn't.

 

[Newby]

So, given that by the stated stats the US of KKKA ranks 37th in health care why does everybody flock to this shithole to get health care? Why don't they flock to France? doyathink?

We're ranked 37th b/c that is the WHO ranking, and they are a soclialist organiztion. We get demoted b/c we don't have socialized medicine, so they have to make us look bad somehow. Good luck in getting anyone to answer why every prominent person in the world comes to the US for any critical medical purposes.

Don't they also factor in other things in that number, like accidents and such. rather than just focusing on health care, therefore skewing that number?

There is an excellent twelve page article found here: It explains how they come about their rankings and why they're not objectively derived.

WHO's Fooling Who? The World Health Organization's Problematic Ranking of Health Care Systems | Glen Whitman | Cato Institute: Briefing Paper

February 28, 2008
Briefing Paper no. 101



WHO's Fooling Who? The World Health Organization's Problematic Ranking of Health Care Systems

by Glen Whitman


Glen Whitman is an associate professor of economics at California State University at Northridge.

Published on February 28, 2008


The World Health Report 2000, prepared by the World Health Organization, presented performance rankings of 191 nations' health care systems. These rankings have been widely cited in public debates about health care, particularly by those interested in reforming the U.S. health care system to resemble more closely those of other countries. Michael Moore, for instance, famously stated in his film SiCKO that the United States placed only 37th in the WHO report. CNN.com, in verifying Moore's claim, noted that France and Canada both placed in the top 10.

Those who cite the WHO rankings typically present them as an objective measure of the relative performance of national health care systems. They are not. The WHO rankings depend crucially on a number of underlying assumptions— some of them logically incoherent, some characterized by substantial uncertainty, and some rooted in ideological beliefs and values that not everyone shares.

The analysts behind the WHO rankings express the hope that their framework "will lay the basis for a shift from ideological discourse on health policy to a more empirical one." Yet the WHO rankings themselves have a strong ideological component. They include factors that are arguably unrelated to actual health performance, some of which could even improve in response to worse health performance. Even setting those concerns aside, the rankings are still highly sensitive to both measurement error and assumptions about the relative importance of the components. And finally, the WHO rankings reflect implicit value judgments and lifestyle preferences that differ among individuals and across countries.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/bp/html/bp101/bp101index.html

More Than One WHO Ranking

The first thing to realize about the WHO health care ranking system is that there is
more than one. One ranking claims to measure "overall attainment" (OA) while another
claims to measure "overall performance" (OP). These two indices are constructed from the
same underlying data, but the OP index is adjusted to reflect a country's performance
relative to how well it theoretically could have performed (more about that adjustment
later). When using the WHO rankings, one should specify which ranking is being used:
OA or OP. Many popular reports, however, do not specify the ranking used and some appear to have drawn from both. CNN.com, for example, reported that both Canada and France rank in the top 10, while the United States ranks 37th. There is no ranking for which both claims are true. Using OP, the United States does rank 37th. But while France is
number 1 on OP, Canada is 30. Using OA, the United States ranks 15th, while France and
Canada rank 6th and 7th, respectively. In neither ranking is the United States at 37 while
both France and Canada are in the top 10. Which ranking is preferable? WHO pre-
sents the OP ranking as its bottom line on health system performance, on the grounds
that OP represents the efficiency of each country's health system. But for reasons to be dis-
cussed below, the OP ranking is even more misleading than the OA ranking. This paper
focuses mainly on the OA ranking; however, the main objections apply to both OP and OA.

Factors for Measuring the Quality of Health Care

The WHO health care rankings result from an index of health-related statistics. As
with any index, it is important to consider how it was constructed, as the construction
affects the results. WHO's index is based on five factors, weighted as follows:3

1. Health Level: 25 percent
2. Health Distribution: 25 percent
3. Responsiveness: 12.5 percent
4. Responsiveness Distribution: 12.5 percent
5. Financial Fairness: 25 percent

The first and third factors have reasonably good justifications for inclusion in the index:

Health Level. This factor can most justifiably be included because it is measured by a
country's disability-adjusted life expectancy (DALE). Of course, life expectancy can be
affected by a wide variety of factors other than the health care system, such as poverty, geography, homicide rate, typical diet, tobacco use, and so on. Still, DALE is at least a direct measure of the health of a country's residents, so its inclusion makes sense.

Follow link to continue reading, it's very enlightening…

 

[wvpeach]

Total bullshit.

Doctors have been doing end of life counselling for decades. The only difference is now Medicare doctors would be paid to perform this service.

Death panels, my ass.

A person should have available to him/her what choices they have from staying hooked up forever to saying I want to chose if I prefer to die in my own style.

This is such a crock of partisan shit to play the death panels and euthansia over logical argument of how we can create the best healthcare system for our citizens.

We don't have it now even for those with insurance.

Once more the right wing extremists are running/ruining their party.

If the care in Canada is so bad, why is it that 87% of those surveyed wanted to keep it the way it is.

Excellent post Ray!

I think I like you!

 

[wvpeach]

So, given that by the stated stats the US of KKKA ranks 37th in health care why does everybody flock to this shithole to get health care? Why don't they flock to France? doyathink?

They don't . Naturally the US does have some of the best hospitals and some really good doctors . But gone are the days of rich arab shieks flying in here for treatment.
Because other countries have caught up to our medical care and surpassed us in many ways.

Indeed I believe it was France that did the first face transplant as well as some other procedures the US has yet to attempt.

You been drinking too much right wing kool aid willow.

 

[jillian]

They don't . Naturally the US does have some of the best hospitals and some really good doctors . But gone are the days of rich arab shieks flying in here for treatment.

Because other countries have caught up to our medical care and surpassed us in many ways.

Indeed I believe it was France that did the first face transplant as well as some other procedures the US has yet to attempt.

You been drinking too much right wing kool aid willow.

U.S. medical care is excellent for people who have access to it and who can afford it. But it costs far more here for comparable health care that could be obtained elsewhere.

plus, over the last 8 years, we fell far behind in research involving stem cells and spinal injuries...

our infant mortality rate is something like 16th in the world.

and the people who talk about our health care being the "best"... may have access to that health coverage, but unanticipated health care expenses are still the cause of 50% of bankruptcy filings in this country

 

[WillowTree]

So, given that by the stated stats the US of KKKA ranks 37th in health care why does everybody flock to this shithole to get health care? Why don't they flock to France? doyathink?

They don't . Naturally the US does have some of the best hospitals and some really good doctors . But gone are the days of rich arab shieks flying in here for treatment.
Because other countries have caught up to our medical care and surpassed us in many ways.

Indeed I believe it was France that did the first face transplant as well as some other procedures the US has yet to attempt.

You been drinking too much right wing kool aid willow.

Yeah right,, I've been drinking too much kool aid, that's why that parliament lady from Canada flew down here for treatment for her breast cancer. that's why canada sends their high risk pregnancies south for treatment, cause I've been drinking too much kool aid alrighty then Kerry on!

 

[Newby]

So, given that by the stated stats the US of KKKA ranks 37th in health care why does everybody flock to this shithole to get health care? Why don't they flock to France? doyathink?

They don't . Naturally the US does have some of the best hospitals and some really good doctors . But gone are the days of rich arab shieks flying in here for treatment.
Because other countries have caught up to our medical care and surpassed us in many ways.

Indeed I believe it was France that did the first face transplant as well as some other procedures the US has yet to attempt.

You been drinking too much right wing kool aid willow.

A liberal gun owner who has a conceal and carry permit?? Yeah, right...

 

[veritas]

So, given that by the stated stats the US of KKKA ranks 37th in health care why does everybody flock to this shithole to get health care? Why don't they flock to France? doyathink?

They don't . Naturally the US does have some of the best hospitals and some really good doctors . But gone are the days of rich arab shieks flying in here for treatment.
Because other countries have caught up to our medical care and surpassed us in many ways.

Indeed I believe it was France that did the first face transplant as well as some other procedures the US has yet to attempt.

You been drinking too much right wing kool aid willow.

Yeah right,, I've been drinking too much kool aid, that's why that parliament lady from Canada flew down here for treatment for her breast cancer. that's why canada sends their high risk pregnancies south for treatment, cause I've been drinking too much kool aid alrighty then Kerry on!

I don't know if your statement is true or not, but pregnancy, high risk or not, is already covered in every state. The government pays for it if you are not insured, all of it. The reason this is, is BECAUSE our infant mortality rate is so high and any expense is covered in order to try to improve it because it is politically expedient.

 

[veritas]

facts dont much matter to those who oppose this bill.

The profits they will lose if there is a public option are all that matter to them.

It still amazes me they fools they can gather to do their bidding.

Perhaps you should try removing your head from your ass.
I suffer from multiple mortals, my wife and I payed for insurance for 15 years before I became disabled. Now BCBS has saved my life many times over and my wife has payed it all including many monthly meds and copay's.
Fuck you if you think you are going to take my insurance that we payed for and deserve for being responsible for our own future.

This is a very enlightening post. And begs for questioning. What if your wife is not able to pay the premiums? What if she loses her job? What if she gets hit by a bus and dies? [not being snarky here, but what ifs define reality]. What if the premiums double, triple, quadruple? What if BCBS non-renews? What if BCBS pulls out of your state? Then where are you? Insurance is not a sure thing by any means.

And what if there is a guy out there just like you and he fell through the cracks? He was responsible and did everything you did, BUT just one slip and responsibility counts for naught, it is beyond your ability to plan ahead or be that responsible.........what then?

 

[Coyote]

Follow link to continue reading, it's very enlightening…

What's also enlightening is Cato's mission statement and it's sources of funding.

I wonder if anyone has rebutted their analysis of WHO?

 

[Coyote]

So, given that by the stated stats the US of KKKA ranks 37th in health care why does everybody flock to this shithole to get health care? Why don't they flock to France? doyathink?

They don't . Naturally the US does have some of the best hospitals and some really good doctors . But gone are the days of rich arab shieks flying in here for treatment.
Because other countries have caught up to our medical care and surpassed us in many ways.

Indeed I believe it was France that did the first face transplant as well as some other procedures the US has yet to attempt.

You been drinking too much right wing kool aid willow.

Yeah right,, I've been drinking too much kool aid, that's why that parliament lady from Canada flew down here for treatment for her breast cancer. that's why canada sends their high risk pregnancies south for treatment, cause I've been drinking too much kool aid alrighty then Kerry on!

Do have any actual data showing people flock to the US for medical care - more so than other countries?

 

[Newby]

What's also enlightening is Cato's mission statement and it's sources of funding.

I wonder if anyone has rebutted their analysis of WHO?

Yeah, these sound really terrible:

Cato's Mission

The mission of the Cato Institute is to increase the understanding of public policies based on the principles of limited government, free markets, individual liberty, and peace. The Institute will use the most effective means to originate, advocate, promote, and disseminate applicable policy proposals that create free, open, and civil societies in the United States and throughout the world.


How Cato Is Funded

In order to maintain its independence, the Cato Institute accepts no government funding. Cato receives approximately 75 percent of its funding from individuals, with lesser amounts coming from foundations, corporations, and the sale of publications. The Cato Institute is a nonprofit, tax-exempt educational foundation under Section 501(c) 3 of the Internal Revenue Code. Cato's 2007 revenues were over $24 million, and it has approximately 105 full-time employees, 75 adjunct scholars, and 23 fellows, plus interns.

What their article states is facts as to how those numbers are derived. I find it interesting that you apparently don't question the WHO's motives, mission, or funding, but you're willing to take what they say and disseminate it across the web for everyone to take as 'fact'.

 

[PixieStix]

They don't . Naturally the US does have some of the best hospitals and some really good doctors . But gone are the days of rich arab shieks flying in here for treatment.
Because other countries have caught up to our medical care and surpassed us in many ways.

Indeed I believe it was France that did the first face transplant as well as some other procedures the US has yet to attempt.

You been drinking too much right wing kool aid willow.

Yeah right,, I've been drinking too much kool aid, that's why that parliament lady from Canada flew down here for treatment for her breast cancer. that's why canada sends their high risk pregnancies south for treatment, cause I've been drinking too much kool aid alrighty then Kerry on!

Do have any actual data showing people flock to the US for medical care - more so than other countries?

The Cleveland Clinic is ranked #4 hospital in the country by "U.S. News & World Report"

It’s easy to take for granted how fortunate we are to have such amazing healthcare facilities in our area, and many people come here from all over, just to have procedures and surgeries done by some of the greatest medical staff in the world. Not to mention residents and fellows come to The Cleveland Clinic from all over the world,

 

[Coyote]

Yeah right,, I've been drinking too much kool aid, that's why that parliament lady from Canada flew down here for treatment for her breast cancer. that's why canada sends their high risk pregnancies south for treatment, cause I've been drinking too much kool aid alrighty then Kerry on!

Do have any actual data showing people flock to the US for medical care - more so than other countries?

The Cleveland Clinic is ranked #4 hospital in the country by "U.S. News & World Report"

It’s easy to take for granted how fortunate we are to have such amazing healthcare facilities in our area, and many people come here from all over, just to have procedures and surgeries done by some of the greatest medical staff in the world. Not to mention residents and fellows come to The Cleveland Clinic from all over the world,

That's not really answering the question that people "flock" to the U.S. for medical care. The Cleveland Clinic and others such as Johns Hopkins and Mayo are world renowned for research, state of the art treatments and specialization. There are other clinics in other countries with similar stature. But those are specialist - that does not mean people are flocking to the U.S. because our overall medical system is better.

I don't disagree that we have some of the best clinics and research facilities in the world - that's not the issue. The issue is more what is available and accessible by the average American and the health care given to the average American and what is covered by insurance.

 

[Coyote]

Yeah, these sound really terrible:

Cato's Mission

The mission of the Cato Institute is to increase the understanding of public policies based on the principles of limited government, free markets, individual liberty, and peace. The Institute will use the most effective means to originate, advocate, promote, and disseminate applicable policy proposals that create free, open, and civil societies in the United States and throughout the world.


How Cato Is Funded

In order to maintain its independence, the Cato Institute accepts no government funding. Cato receives approximately 75 percent of its funding from individuals, with lesser amounts coming from foundations, corporations, and the sale of publications. The Cato Institute is a nonprofit, tax-exempt educational foundation under Section 501(c) 3 of the Internal Revenue Code. Cato's 2007 revenues were over $24 million, and it has approximately 105 full-time employees, 75 adjunct scholars, and 23 fellows, plus interns.

What their article states is facts as to how those numbers are derived. I find it interesting that you apparently don't question the WHO's motives, mission, or funding, but you're willing to take what they say and disseminate it across the web for everyone to take as 'fact'.

Cato's funding (from Source Watch): Cato Institute - SourceWatch Cato has it's own agenda - one that is quite political. Does WHO? WHO seems a much more broad and international group.

Show me WHO's mission statement and funding sources and I'll make an argument.

 

[OneWorld]

Why do Republicans hate the elderly? I've never actually understood this.

Because they cost a lot of money, and they aren't very useful for making them money any longer.

No joke... it's sad, but true. They've always tried to cut funds for seniors (it's been an up hill battle that liberals have fought for centuries), and also veterans.... once you've served them, they'd rather discard you.