On issue of gays in military,P...Congress...

[SFC Ollie]

Please do not confuse race with behavior.

Please do not confuse behavior for genetics.

Really 70.000?

65k, according to pentagon data.


Because its pretty fucking obvious to anyone who's paying attention. From what I understand, there are very few secrets between soldiers stuck together on the front lines.



Given that there are 65,000 gays in the military who have volunteered, this isn't an issue.


It's part of the job. Don't like it, don't sign up. There are plenty of people who have been taught that killing is wrong...I don't see the US Military bending-over-backwards to accommodate lifelong hippies.


Soldiers follow orders.


Again, since when did the US Military give a fuck about your individual beliefs? You obey ROE and follow orders.

Drill Sergeants are not really that mean assed picture you have in your mind. The are real people.

I've lived with Marine Drill Instructors, thank you.

This isn't Israel.

So we agree that this isn't about "effectiveness" or "cohesion," but tolerating bigotry.

I see, you have never served on active duty. That explains a lot. I was the Operations Sergeant in a Training Company, I had 6 Drills that worked for me. And you can call it what ever you want. it will hurt the military.

 

[eagleseven]

I see, you have never served on active duty.

No. I only have the opinions of my friends who have returned from Iraq.

I was the Operations Sergeant in a Training Company, I had 6 Drills that worked for me. And you can call it what ever you want. it will hurt the military.

The Pentagon disagrees.

 

[SFC Ollie]

I see, you have never served on active duty.

No. I only have the opinions of my friends who have returned from Iraq.

I was the Operations Sergeant in a Training Company, I had 6 Drills that worked for me. And you can call it what ever you want. it will hurt the military.

The Pentagon disagrees.

That's fine. they don't have much choice do they. Their boss who can ask for their resignation has said he wants it changed. No Officer is going to speak out publicly against it. Unless they are ready to end their careers. Watch and see.

 

[Rudy]

Please do not confuse race with behavior.

Please do not confuse behavior for genetics.


65k, according to pentagon data.


Because its pretty fucking obvious to anyone who's paying attention. From what I understand, there are very few secrets between soldiers stuck together on the front lines.



Given that there are 65,000 gays in the military who have volunteered, this isn't an issue.


It's part of the job. Don't like it, don't sign up. There are plenty of people who have been taught that killing is wrong...I don't see the US Military bending-over-backwards to accommodate lifelong hippies.


Soldiers follow orders.


Again, since when did the US Military give a fuck about your individual beliefs? You obey ROE and follow orders.


I've lived with Marine Drill Instructors, thank you.

This isn't Israel.

So we agree that this isn't about "effectiveness" or "cohesion," but tolerating bigotry.

I see, you have never served on active duty. That explains a lot. I was the Operations Sergeant in a Training Company, I had 6 Drills that worked for me. And you can call it what ever you want. it will hurt the military.

I was a Marine infantry squad leader. We not only showered together; we sometimes even piratically slept on top of each other to share body heat when it got too cold to even move.

Nobody gave a rats ass about sexual preferences.. We all had a job to do. We relied on each other to get it done. Each of us were willing to take a bullet for the men serving beside us.

We weren't even afraid to cry on another Marine's shoulder after eventful missions. We were a true "band of brothers."

If I ever had a Marine under me who would be so childish to judge another Marine and so immature to break the unit mentality because of a homosexual within the ranks, I wouldn't want HIM watching my back in a firefight in the first place.

An "Operations Sergeant" whose full time job is to "train" knows nothing about how the military works downrange. A Vietnam vet using his combat experience from over 40 years ago to base his opinion on today's military really doesn't rate much of an opinion.

 

[Bezukhov]

I wonder if all those so vehemently opposed about gays serving opely are as incensed about how female servicemembers are treated by straight soldiers?

I think if you really want a kick-assed combat unit make some of them "Gay Only".

 

[bodecea]

I wonder if all those so vehemently opposed about gays serving opely are as incensed about how female servicemembers are treated by straight soldiers?

I think if you really want a kick-assed combat unit make some of them "Gay Only".

You know...I was still in when DADT was first activated. Women sailors, gay and straight, were literally rolling on the floor with laughter over all the concerns straight sailors expressed over being googled in the shower, propositioned, pinched, etc. It's not as if we haven't had to handle that for...like...forever.

 

[California Girl]

I fail to see why gays have to make such a fucking issue about serving openly. No one cares what they do in private. I see no reason why the status quo - which works perfectly well for the vast majority - need change.

 

[bodecea]

I fail to see why gays have to make such a fucking issue about serving openly. No one cares what they do in private. I see no reason why the status quo - which works perfectly well for the vast majority - need change.

Ah...we are not the ones making a big deal...hunting us down, trying to get us to rat on each other, and kicking us out.
May I suggest a book: "Conduct Unbecoming". Read that and then come back and tell us who has been making a "fucking issue" out of gays in the Military.

And while you're at it...read about the USS Iowa explosion. If you ever watch NCIS....you will learn they used to be called the NIS...and then (as now) they are PRIMARILY a Witchhunting organization.

 

[bodecea]

You want to have gays serving openly in the Military? Sign up and go live with them. There will be many who will not serve with them.

You think for a minute that you can make this drastic change in the middle of a 2 front war?

Should the entire military just do away with sex completely? Just one shower room for all?

Come on lets hear some ideas?

Isn't a gay man showering with another gay man the same as a hetro man showering with a woman?

So should we only allow one gay per unit?

We need some answers here, how is this supposed to work?

Or do we simply force straight males to accept it?

Sorry but gays serving openly in the US Military will cause way too many problems.

And don't pretend you don't know what those problems are, or could be.

Why should this be any different than any other "war" in American history where the Military relaxed their "straight" standards because they needed us...then kicked us to the curb once the need was gone?

So you don't have any answers.
And when were gays serving openly in the US armed forces? Add that to the list of questions.

There's an interesting story about Eisenhower and his female WAC staff during WWII...have you ever heard it?

 

[bodecea]

Please do not confuse race with behavior.

Please do not confuse behavior for genetics.


65k, according to pentagon data.


Because its pretty fucking obvious to anyone who's paying attention. From what I understand, there are very few secrets between soldiers stuck together on the front lines.



Given that there are 65,000 gays in the military who have volunteered, this isn't an issue.


It's part of the job. Don't like it, don't sign up. There are plenty of people who have been taught that killing is wrong...I don't see the US Military bending-over-backwards to accommodate lifelong hippies.


Soldiers follow orders.


Again, since when did the US Military give a fuck about your individual beliefs? You obey ROE and follow orders.


I've lived with Marine Drill Instructors, thank you.

This isn't Israel.

So we agree that this isn't about "effectiveness" or "cohesion," but tolerating bigotry.

I see, you have never served on active duty. That explains a lot. I was the Operations Sergeant in a Training Company, I had 6 Drills that worked for me. And you can call it what ever you want. it will hurt the military.

I HAVE served on Active Duty...21 year. I was a Division Officer...Dept Head...OiC...Executive Officer...etc. You can project your own fears and prejudices all you want. It hasn't hurt the military anywhere where gays are allowed to serve openly and it won't here.

 

[Rudy]

Please do not confuse behavior for genetics.


65k, according to pentagon data.


Because its pretty fucking obvious to anyone who's paying attention. From what I understand, there are very few secrets between soldiers stuck together on the front lines.



Given that there are 65,000 gays in the military who have volunteered, this isn't an issue.


It's part of the job. Don't like it, don't sign up. There are plenty of people who have been taught that killing is wrong...I don't see the US Military bending-over-backwards to accommodate lifelong hippies.


Soldiers follow orders.


Again, since when did the US Military give a fuck about your individual beliefs? You obey ROE and follow orders.


I've lived with Marine Drill Instructors, thank you.


So we agree that this isn't about "effectiveness" or "cohesion," but tolerating bigotry.

I see, you have never served on active duty. That explains a lot. I was the Operations Sergeant in a Training Company, I had 6 Drills that worked for me. And you can call it what ever you want. it will hurt the military.

I HAVE served on Active Duty...21 year. I was a Division Officer...Dept Head...OiC...Executive Officer...etc. You can project your own fears and prejudices all you want. It hasn't hurt the military anywhere where gays are allowed to serve openly and it won't here.

I think seep down inside everyone knows that Bodecca. Unfortunately it has everything to do with "The Moral Agenda," and all the "Christians" who want to legislate their "morality" on the rest of the country.

Thanks for your service by the way.

 

[Tech_Esq]

washingtonpost.com



I say!!! let them serve, they also can be excellent soldiers and follow orders just as well as the Straight soldiers can. There should be no discrimination on the battle front!!!

I'm of two minds on this subject. First, the primary razor that should be used for any "social change" in the military is, "Does doing this increase the combat effectiveness of the military?" (In other words, does this increase the military's efficiency or effectiveness at killing people and breaking things?)

If the answer to that question is yes, then the burden should be shifted to answer why not do that. If the answer is no, then the burden is on the proposer to prove it should be done anyway.

In the instant case, I would say that openly gay soldiers (as opposed to the current state of affairs) would be beneficial immediately in all areas where a clearance is needed. The reason is blackmail. If you are hiding anything, including your sexual preference, it increases the possibility that you could be blackmailed by foreign agents. This should help that situation.

In parts of the services where the MOS (military occupational specialty aka job) is more like a 9 -5 job, I see no reason why gays could not openly serve. I don't think this presents more of a challenge to the command than other issues that can pop up in the work place.

In combat arms units, I'm not sure this is the case. The circumstances are significantly different.

Let me put it like this, if you can have openly gay soldiers serving in combat arms units, then there is no reason to have separate barracks or bathrooms or showers for men and women in the military.

I'll let you noodle through why I might say that for a while.

 

[rightwinger]

Let me put it like this, if you can have openly gay soldiers serving in combat arms units, then there is no reason to have separate barracks or bathrooms or showers for men and women in the military.

For christs sake....who really cares if a gay man sees you naked?

Would you go to a gay doctor?
Would you quit a health spa if they allowed gays?

They have the same equipment...they know what it looks like

 

[SFC Ollie]

Please do not confuse behavior for genetics.


65k, according to pentagon data.


Because its pretty fucking obvious to anyone who's paying attention. From what I understand, there are very few secrets between soldiers stuck together on the front lines.



Given that there are 65,000 gays in the military who have volunteered, this isn't an issue.


It's part of the job. Don't like it, don't sign up. There are plenty of people who have been taught that killing is wrong...I don't see the US Military bending-over-backwards to accommodate lifelong hippies.


Soldiers follow orders.


Again, since when did the US Military give a fuck about your individual beliefs? You obey ROE and follow orders.


I've lived with Marine Drill Instructors, thank you.


So we agree that this isn't about "effectiveness" or "cohesion," but tolerating bigotry.

I see, you have never served on active duty. That explains a lot. I was the Operations Sergeant in a Training Company, I had 6 Drills that worked for me. And you can call it what ever you want. it will hurt the military.

I was a Marine infantry squad leader. We not only showered together; we sometimes even piratically slept on top of each other to share body heat when it got too cold to even move.

Nobody gave a rats ass about sexual preferences.. We all had a job to do. We relied on each other to get it done. Each of us were willing to take a bullet for the men serving beside us.

We weren't even afraid to cry on another Marine's shoulder after eventful missions. We were a true "band of brothers."

If I ever had a Marine under me who would be so childish to judge another Marine and so immature to break the unit mentality because of a homosexual within the ranks, I wouldn't want HIM watching my back in a firefight in the first place.

An "Operations Sergeant" whose full time job is to "train" knows nothing about how the military works downrange. A Vietnam vet using his combat experience from over 40 years ago to base his opinion on today's military really doesn't rate much of an opinion.

Duh asswipe you just showed us how much you know about the military. How does one become an Operations Sergeant in a training company? Answer: By serving 20 years on the line. And this Vietnam veteran is also a Desert Storm Veteran. who retired in 93. not 40 years ago. You don't like my opinion that's just too fucking bad.

Fact remains that most of the active military polled that they were against rescinding DADT.

 

[Tech_Esq]

Let me put it like this, if you can have openly gay soldiers serving in combat arms units, then there is no reason to have separate barracks or bathrooms or showers for men and women in the military.

For christs sake....who really cares if a gay man sees you naked?

Would you go to a gay doctor?
Would you quit a health spa if they allowed gays?

They have the same equipment...they know what it looks like

Congrats!!! You really missed the point.

Now, differentiate women from men in the same situation. You really logically can't.

Not all gay men are attracted to all men only some of them. The same could be said for men and women or women and men. As far as seeing each other naked goes, stop being so juvenile. Like we haven't all seen the opposite sex naked and even if we hadn't what difference would that make?

The point is that you don't want soldiers fucking each other in the barracks. (Hetero or homo doesn't matter it's a break down in discipline). So, you try to construct housing situations to reduce that to the greatest extent possible.

If you can have openly gay soldiers, a strong barrier is removed from the gay soldier behavioral choices. Before, if he acted on an attraction and was wrong, he could get kicked out of the military. Under the new rules, not so (presumably). So, you could get "hit on" by someone in your same barracks, shower etc.

Please differentiate if females and males cohabited. (Try not to be juvenile).

 

[Gadawg73]

Why is it the Israelis and British have no problems and many claim the US military will?
Every study since the 1950s state there will be few problems.
Now I am all for working this thing in on the military's time. But Ollie, Mullen came out for it and Gates also. I agree that this should NOT be a political experiment.
The current policy is absurd. We know men there now in combat from our town. They want anyone that will serve. We are short of combat troops and the ones we have are deployed too long.
What is the problem Ollie? How come you state some soldiers will not serve with gays?
What proof is there that a gay person's service will be less than a straight soldiers?
The reality is that there are numerous gay officers nowin the military.
So Ollie, where did the military go wrong commisioning those gay officers, how did they become an officer and why should weban them with barriers if they achieve?
Barry Goldwater had it right in the dam 1960s. We are in a Gawd dam shooting war. All that matters is if we SHOOT straight.
Now in Nam a lot of gays were medics as few admitted to being gay but everyone knew and many were brave as any straight man.
Let the military figure it out. Keep paranoid gay boogey man homophobes AND left leaning political hack types that want to play politics out of it. At the end of the day e will allowopenly gay soldiers. The ban is absurd. If you have a hangup about it and can not do your job. Goodbye. The military weeded out the bigots one time before and can do it again.

 

[SFC Ollie]

Why is it the Israelis and British have no problems and many claim the US military will?
Every study since the 1950s state there will be few problems.
Now I am all for working this thing in on the military's time. But Ollie, Mullen came out for it and Gates also. I agree that this should NOT be a political experiment.
The current policy is absurd. We know men there now in combat from our town. They want anyone that will serve. We are short of combat troops and the ones we have are deployed too long.
What is the problem Ollie? How come you state some soldiers will not serve with gays?
What proof is there that a gay person's service will be less than a straight soldiers?
The reality is that there are numerous gay officers nowin the military.
So Ollie, where did the military go wrong commisioning those gay officers, how did they become an officer and why should weban them with barriers if they achieve?
Barry Goldwater had it right in the dam 1960s. We are in a Gawd dam shooting war. All that matters is if we SHOOT straight.
Now in Nam a lot of gays were medics as few admitted to being gay but everyone knew and many were brave as any straight man.
Let the military figure it out. Keep paranoid gay boogey man homophobes AND left leaning political hack types that want to play politics out of it. At the end of the day e will allowopenly gay soldiers. The ban is absurd. If you have a hangup about it and can not do your job. Goodbye. The military weeded out the bigots one time before and can do it again.

I'm already retired from the military thank you, they won't be getting rid of me. And I am not a bigot at all. I see no reason to fix what isn't broke.

Define homosexuality. Is it not a person who is sexually attracted to a member of the same sex? Yet you see no problem with allowing this person to live with the same sex....

Is this not the same as a female reporting to a Unit and being assigned to a room with males? Or a male being assigned to a room with females?

Lets see how big that goes over.......

 

[Rudy]

Why is it the Israelis and British have no problems and many claim the US military will?
Every study since the 1950s state there will be few problems.
Now I am all for working this thing in on the military's time. But Ollie, Mullen came out for it and Gates also. I agree that this should NOT be a political experiment.
The current policy is absurd. We know men there now in combat from our town. They want anyone that will serve. We are short of combat troops and the ones we have are deployed too long.
What is the problem Ollie? How come you state some soldiers will not serve with gays?
What proof is there that a gay person's service will be less than a straight soldiers?
The reality is that there are numerous gay officers nowin the military.
So Ollie, where did the military go wrong commisioning those gay officers, how did they become an officer and why should weban them with barriers if they achieve?
Barry Goldwater had it right in the dam 1960s. We are in a Gawd dam shooting war. All that matters is if we SHOOT straight.
Now in Nam a lot of gays were medics as few admitted to being gay but everyone knew and many were brave as any straight man.
Let the military figure it out. Keep paranoid gay boogey man homophobes AND left leaning political hack types that want to play politics out of it. At the end of the day e will allowopenly gay soldiers. The ban is absurd. If you have a hangup about it and can not do your job. Goodbye. The military weeded out the bigots one time before and can do it again.

I'm already retired from the military thank you, they won't be getting rid of me. And I am not a bigot at all. I see no reason to fix what isn't broke.

Define homosexuality. Is it not a person who is sexually attracted to a member of the same sex? Yet you see no problem with allowing this person to live with the same sex....

Is this not the same as a female reporting to a Unit and being assigned to a room with males? Or a male being assigned to a room with females?

Lets see how big that goes over.......

Its happened before.. everyone knew he was gay... and how did his fellow Marines react? They named him "Marine of the Quarter."

Kirsten Gillibrand, Democrat for U.S. Senate - Don't Ask Don't Tell Story Project

I guess that kills your argument.

 

[SFC Ollie]

Why is it the Israelis and British have no problems and many claim the US military will?
Every study since the 1950s state there will be few problems.
Now I am all for working this thing in on the military's time. But Ollie, Mullen came out for it and Gates also. I agree that this should NOT be a political experiment.
The current policy is absurd. We know men there now in combat from our town. They want anyone that will serve. We are short of combat troops and the ones we have are deployed too long.
What is the problem Ollie? How come you state some soldiers will not serve with gays?
What proof is there that a gay person's service will be less than a straight soldiers?
The reality is that there are numerous gay officers nowin the military.
So Ollie, where did the military go wrong commisioning those gay officers, how did they become an officer and why should weban them with barriers if they achieve?
Barry Goldwater had it right in the dam 1960s. We are in a Gawd dam shooting war. All that matters is if we SHOOT straight.
Now in Nam a lot of gays were medics as few admitted to being gay but everyone knew and many were brave as any straight man.
Let the military figure it out. Keep paranoid gay boogey man homophobes AND left leaning political hack types that want to play politics out of it. At the end of the day e will allowopenly gay soldiers. The ban is absurd. If you have a hangup about it and can not do your job. Goodbye. The military weeded out the bigots one time before and can do it again.

I'm already retired from the military thank you, they won't be getting rid of me. And I am not a bigot at all. I see no reason to fix what isn't broke.

Define homosexuality. Is it not a person who is sexually attracted to a member of the same sex? Yet you see no problem with allowing this person to live with the same sex....

Is this not the same as a female reporting to a Unit and being assigned to a room with males? Or a male being assigned to a room with females?

Lets see how big that goes over.......

Its happened before.. everyone knew he was gay... and how did his fellow Marines react? They named him "Marine of the Quarter."

Kirsten Gillibrand, Democrat for U.S. Senate - Don't Ask Don't Tell Story Project

I guess that kills your argument.

I find it extremely difficult to believe that this Marine came out and then served 4 more years. Especially in 93 when they were gutting the military and looking for people to leave. Offering early retirements and God knows what.

But I have made my case and stand by it. We will see.

 

[California Girl]

I fail to see why gays have to make such a fucking issue about serving openly. No one cares what they do in private. I see no reason why the status quo - which works perfectly well for the vast majority - need change.

Ah...we are not the ones making a big deal...hunting us down, trying to get us to rat on each other, and kicking us out.
May I suggest a book: "Conduct Unbecoming". Read that and then come back and tell us who has been making a "fucking issue" out of gays in the Military.

And while you're at it...read about the USS Iowa explosion. If you ever watch NCIS....you will learn they used to be called the NIS...and then (as now) they are PRIMARILY a Witchhunting organization.

I have already read 'Conduct Unbecoming', I also know enough military to understand the issue. My view remains as I stated it. I personally know two gay guys in the military - neither has an issue with DADT.