On Islam as a Violent Terrorist Religion

Discussion in 'Religion and Ethics' started by 1549, Nov 1, 2006.

  1. 1549
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    1549 Active Member

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    I was watching the documentary "the Cult of the Suicide Bomber" made by a former CIA agent Robert Baer. I was not able to see the documentary in its entirety today (I will be seeing the second half on Monday), but I observed two points of interest:

    1) Baer demonstrated the hatred of America inside of Iran. He went to an afternoon prayer at a University in Tehran. It happened to be the day after Americans at Guantanamo Bay were accused of desecrating the Qur'an. The man leading the prayer screamed hateful things about America including:

    "They call themselves Christians, but they are lying! Death to America!"

    2) A martyrdom was viewed before 1980 as any person that died for Islam. Interestingly, those that died for Iran in the war with Iraq were all martyrs. The Iraqi war was seen as a threat to Shi'ite Islam, and the first ever suicide bomber was used in that war: Ahmad Qassir, who independently decided to strap himself with explosives and jump under an Iraqi tank. When suicide bombers helped Iran win the war, Iran shamelessly promoted this new form of 'martyrdom'. They set up special 'martyr' cemetaries and holidays. Iran basically made martyrdom a religion of its own.

    The movie basically displays profiles how the Iranian government is responsible for the proliferation of suicide bombing and quietly raged war with America. The bombings of the Beirut embassy and Marine base were likely orchestrated by the Iranian government.

    Two conclusions that can be indirectly drawn from this film:

    1) Islam rejects western culture, not Christianity. The infamous theats at Infidels in the Qu'ran could likely be directed at those who do not believe in Allah (Christians and Jews do believe in Allah, they just don't refer to God as Allah). Most scholars, theologists have been saying this along (as Judaism and Christianity are treated with respect in the Qu'ran), but I think the quote from the Tehran University could really drive the point home to the many skeptics.

    2) Martyrdom is not a real Islamic concept, instead the government of Iran just portrayed martyrdom as a statement of religion. Doing so provided them with a powerful weapon. As Iran actively spread use of suicide tactics to Lebanon and Syria, it gained publicity and became a popular war tactic for all Islamic militants.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. dilloduck
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    dilloduck Diamond Member

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    I think your first conclusion is goofy.
     
  3. 1549
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    1549 Active Member

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    Because it contradicts what many posters here are steadfast on believing?

    To be honest, there is little analysis involved in the first conclusion.
    Fact: Christians and Jews believe in Allah (again, we say God...they say Allah...in the end it is the same being)
    Fact: Christians and Jews are supposed to be treated with respect according to Muslim scripture

    The film is involved with the first conclusion because there is evidence in the film that Muslims have nothing against Christianity. To repeat the quote:
    "They call themselves Christians, but they are lying!" I do not have an exact quotes for the preceding lines, but the word "Godless" was used to describe America.
     
  4. onedomino
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    onedomino SCE to AUX

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    What is the purpose of your post? You say that Islam rejects Western culture. Islam rejects everything that is not Islam. Are you claiming the Islam is not violent? What are they teaching you at Rutgers? Islam is successfully used all over the world to generate violence and brutality against individuals, governments, and other cultures. Let’s consider a list of countries where Islam and its concept of Jihad are currently being used to perpetrate murder and mayhem. This will be a long list; excuse me if I leave anyone out.

    New York City
    Canada: near miss in Toronto.
    France
    United Kingdom
    Netherlands
    Spain
    Russia: Moscow, Chechnya, and elsewhere.
    Turkey
    Israel
    Jordon
    Lebanon
    Algeria
    Tunisia
    Morocco
    Darfur/Sudan
    Egypt
    Saudi Arabia
    Yemen
    Somalia
    Mozambique
    Kenya
    Tanzania
    Iraq
    Iran
    Kyrgyzstan
    Pakistan
    Afghanistan
    India
    Sir Lanka
    Thailand
    Philippines
    Indonesian
    Western China
     
  5. José
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    José Gold Member

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    The only reason the palestinian armed struggle is portrayed as "perpetrating murder and mayhem" is because they are arabs fighting for their homeland in the Middle East.

    If they were americans fighting for any part of the US they would be called freedom fighters, no matter how many civilians were killed in the process.

    Einstein said it best:

    "Only two things are infinite: the universe and the stupidity of a super patriotic american clown and I'm not sure about the former."
     
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  6. Dr Grump
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    Dr Grump Gold Member

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    Fundamentalist Islam. Not everyday Islam. Huge difference. Jim Jones said he was a Christian. Did he represent Christianity?

    As far as I know the Tamil Tigers of Sri Lanka are Tamils (hindu). Tanzania and Kenya were one offs. Both those countries do not have a history prior or post 1998 of Islamic extremism. Chechyna and Western China Muslims want independence from those countries (can you say Boston Tea Party?). Again, those European countries mentioned have the odd incidence perpetrated by a minority of Muslims. As for the rest, they are Muslim countries, so it is no surprise they are on the list. As long as they live in the dark ages, so they will be forever lost in that passage of time....
     
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  7. onedomino
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    onedomino SCE to AUX

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    We could not disagree more on this topic. Why does not "everyday" Islam come out and unequivocally and universally condemn terrorism and take strong positive action against it? Because in many corners of "everyday" Islam terrorism is implicitly, and sometimes explicitly, condoned. At least a third of the murderous Tamil Tigers attacking the Buddhists running Sir Lanka are Muslims. Moreover the recent suicide bombings in Sir Lanka, one of which killed more than 100 people, were the public works of the Muslim faction of the Tigers, not the Hindu component. The Boston Tea Party had nothing to do with murdering school children, killing innocents attending the theater, blowing up airliners, and destroying apartment buildings loaded with people. But these deplorable acts have all been perpetrated by Muslims from Chechnya. Nor did the Tea Party have anything to do with shooting policemen dead in the streets, or blowing up bus loads of innocent people, as the Muslim Uyghurs have done in China. Everywhere Islam comes in contact with another religion or culture there is despicable behavior, including the wanton murder of innocent women and children: Darfur, Kashmir, India, Sir Lanka, Thailand, Bali, China. And by the way, Thailand is not a Muslim country. The jihadist killers are of course Muslims from southern Thailand. Radical Islam has metastasized like a black malignancy across the planet and “everyday” Islam just sits by and recites the Koran in the local madras for murder.
     
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  8. Dr Grump
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    Dr Grump Gold Member

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    Because they have no balls and they are running scared...

    Google the words "Tamil Tigers Muslim". Read the first dozen pieces then get back to me.

    Unfortunate that you take the most extreme and treat it as the norm. Chechnyan tactics are despicable to say the least. Ask yourself this - if Russia had let them decide their own destiny, would they have done what they did? I think not. In saying that, the kind of society they promote, doesn't bode them well. I wasn't trying to compare tactics, just point out that what they want seems to be the same that the colonies wanted back in the 18th century. Methods are untenable, of course, but nonetheless, still want the same. As for Urghurs, I just saw on the news last night Chinese border guards shooting Tibetans in cold blood trying to cross the Indian border to join the Dalai Llama. Last time I looked, those guards were not Muslims.

    Never said otherwise. I guess my main objection is, and always has been, is that people try and make out fundie Muslims are the norm. They are not. There is supposed to be 1 billion Muslims. IMO, to be the norm 500,000,001 Muslims have to be fundamental. I doubt even ten million of them are. THAT is MY point...in the long run...

    Tell me something I don't know. Thailand has bigger problems, like a coup, to deal with.

    You are right about fundie Muslim, but incorrect about "everyday" Islam. Other than Afghanistan, and arguably Iran, where does fundamental Islam run a country? Libya? No. Indonesia? No. Tunisia? No. Mali? No? Morocco? No. Albania? No. Pakistan? No. Oman? No. Bahrain? No. Egypt? No. Qatar? No. Mauritania? No. Nigeria? No. UAE? No. Saudi Arabia? kinda, but they are allies, no? Djoubouti? No. Jordan? No. Turkey? No. Uzbekistan? no. Kazakstan? No. Turkmenistan? No. Kryzistan? No. Sudan? No. Malaysia? No.
     
  9. José
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    José Gold Member

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    Portraying the palestinian cause as being grounded in religion is a gross misrepresentation of reality.

    Any timeline of Palestine reveals this mistake:

    Birth of the palestinian cause: 1948

    Creation of Hamas: 1987

    The palestinian cause precedes its partial islamisation in almost 40 years.

    Until 1987 the palestinian resistance movement was rigorously secular. All historians are in agreement on this.

    The partial islamisation of the palestinian cause was an unfortunate development brought about by the frustration of the palestinian people with the stalemate and encouraged by Israel to undermine the PLO.

    You don’t have to take my word for it.

    The frustration that led to the creation of Hamas is clearly expressed in its chart:

    Article Thirteen:

    There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.

    Had the legitimate grievances of the palestinian people been adressed in a fair manner during the 50’s, 60’s or 70’s and there wouldn’t even be a palestinian cause to be partially islamised in the 80’s anymore.

    By adressing their legitimate grievances I mean the establishment of an international protectorate that conciliate the security needs of the jewish population with the right of the palestinian people to move freely and live anywhere they want in their historical homeland.

    But don’t fool yourself, the palestinian issue was, is and will always be a nationalist cause not a religious one.

    It existed well before the founding of Hamas and will continue to exist after it’s gone.

    The palestinian issue is about the right of palestinian arabs to live in western Palestine.

    But nothing I said invalidates your point about muslim fundamentalism.

    As I’ve said many times before, the end of religiously inspired violence and anti americanism in the muslim world will only be achieved through structural changes in the societies of Saudi Arabia and Iran (as well as Palestine).
     
  10. José
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    José Gold Member

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    Let’s clarify this whole SPAC story once and for all

    I don’t use this expression without burden of conscience.

    The members of the US Message Board are such a polite lot (won’t cite any names cuz I’m referring to practically everybody) that I can’t help but feel bad everytime I use this derogatory expression.

    But try to put yourself in my shoes for a moment, domino, Gunny...

    It’s an extremely frustrating intellectual exercise to try and debate international politics with people who go into a shaking frenzy everytime they hear the “Star Spangled Banner” : )
     

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