Old vs New Capitalism

[sparky]

Rather unfair to goats though......~S~

 

[Widdekind]

Perhaps "boom-bust" business cycles derive, from "everybody gets the same idea, at the same time" ? E.g. crop prices rise, so every farmer every-where plants extra crops that season; then, come harvest-time, a "production tsunami" swamps the market ? So, if farmers communicated, e.g. "national data-base", about their plantings & planned-productions; then farmers could avoid supply-side "gluts".

Investment, on the stock-market, is similar:

next year's crop expected to increase in value <---> corporation expected to increase in business
everybody buys more seeds <---> everybody buys more shares
seed prices rise <---> share-prices rise​

Now, the rise of "seed / share" prices sends the "economic signal", that "all the early birds have already gotten all the worms". Ergo, everybody else should "bow out", and look elsewhere. But, rising "seed / share" prices attract Speculators, who bank on "suckers buying in after them", leading to "bubbles before bursts" (cp. "the Jack and the Duke" from Huckleberry Finn, i.e. "nobody wants to be the last one in", e.g. "hey, man, i've been investing in this company... you really ought to try it").

Perhaps a stabilized index, e.g. "Price per multi-year averaged earnings" (that couldn't be "Madoff Magicked"), could indicate asset over-valuation ? Ideally, burgeoning businesses' share-Prices would "rise & plateau", "racheting up like Government Budgets", without "boom before bust" cycles.

 

[Intense]

I guess it must be Itfits' turn to bang heads withthe gold bugs.

We've seen this happen over and over again.

Gold bugs cannot be squashed by facts or reason.

Gold Buggery is a FAITH BASED economic theory.

Want to know where GOLD BUGS basic premise is wrong?

Ask them if gold has intensic value and that is why it is a good specie.
You see, they think units of measure of past work are real-er than the work that species represents.

They believe thast STUFF has value BEFORE humans give it value,

Basicially these people don't understand what money really represents.

Gold was money more than 6,000 years for a reason. I'm not going to spell it out for you. The intrinsic value, comes from several things about gold. It, like many items, requires labor to obtain, the energy from which all the market place derives from, being part of it. It's also, rare, maluable, almost indestructable, easy to recognize and impossible to counterfeit (unless based on purity).


I suppose everyone that came before was stupid and we suddenly figured it all out in the last 100 years. That would be why this entire system is facing a masssive collapse (Imm sure you'll disagree with that too). We see boom/bust harder and faster each time and the debasement of the money is a great thing. I really do not have an interest in arguing with people over gold in this thread. There are several like it.

You either understand that exchange medium arised naturally through human action/markets, or you believe that governments are the ones who decided it is a good idea. One is right, the other is wrong. Plain and simple.

Well Stated. Government manipulating the value of the dollar, inflating it, so it can more easily pay off loans, doesn't do much good if the Government continues to borrow at an increased rate. Plain and simple. No matter what standard you are on. We are not disciplined enough for the Gold Standard yet, because of the Shell Game, which is the cause of the cycles.

 

[DSGE]

In response to itfitzme on money and business cycles:

Yes, there can still be business cycles in the absence of money, but those are supply-side cycles (because Say's law holds). Changes in the productive capacity of the economy. But those kinds of business cycles are "real business cycles" (that is, not nominal). Real consumption, investment, output, employment, etc would fall, but there likely wouldn't be "unemployment" because the nominal rigidities that prevent labour market clearing won't be relevant. The presence of money allows for demand-side business cycles.

had to look that up (thank you)>>>>

Supply creates its own demand - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the best real world example is one i'm living now, wiring a shoping mall

it's lauded as Springfield Vermont's economic salvation by all the political windbags , of all stripe

this is Obama's shovel ready grants, your tax $$$ at work here

so now we've 400K sq feet of space to offer, mostly behind the town square, which has 4-5 empty 'for rent' store fronts as i type to you

so far, all they've got is starving artists looking to hawk their wares

~S~

Well first, that's not really relevant to Say's law. Say's law says that you can't have this "insufficient aggregate demand". Obviously demand for individual products can fall. Second, you're in a monetary economy, and Say's law doesn't always hold in a monetary economy. It does however in a pure trade economy.

 

[sparky]

I guess Say is what we'd call real old school capitalism DSGE, back to the dawn of the industrial revolution

anyways, i got it from here>
Say's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He also wrote, that it is not the abundance of money but the abundance of other products in general that facilitates sales:

 

[DSGE]

I guess Say is what we'd call real old school capitalism DSGE, back to the dawn of the industrial revolution

Okay. My comment wasn't supposed to relate to the OP (which I haven't read yet; should probably do that) it was in response to Itfitzme's comments about money and business cycles. I'm not trying to claim that Say's law holds now.

anyways, i got it from here>
Say's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He also wrote, that it is not the abundance of money but the abundance of other products in general that facilitates sales:

Not really sure what point you're making...

 

[editec]

I guess it must be Itfits' turn to bang heads withthe gold bugs.

We've seen this happen over and over again.

Gold bugs cannot be squashed by facts or reason.

Gold Buggery is a FAITH BASED economic theory.

Want to know where GOLD BUGS basic premise is wrong?

Ask them if gold has intensic value and that is why it is a good specie.
You see, they think units of measure of past work are real-er than the work that species represents.

They believe thast STUFF has value BEFORE humans give it value,

Basicially these people don't understand what money really represents.

Gold was money more than 6,000 years for a reason. I'm not going to spell it out for you.

You're not going to spell it out for me because you can't spell it out for me, lad.

You gold bugs truly do NOT understand what money really is.

 

[sparky]

I guess Say is what we'd call real old school capitalism DSGE, back to the dawn of the industrial revolution

Okay. My comment wasn't supposed to relate to the OP (which I haven't read yet; should probably do that) it was in response to Itfitzme's comments about money and business cycles. I'm not trying to claim that Say's law holds now.

anyways, i got it from here>
Say's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He also wrote, that it is not the abundance of money but the abundance of other products in general that facilitates sales:

Not really sure what point you're making...

supply side economics DSGE , we build a shopping mall, and we majically lift ourselves out of being a depressed area with cha cha shops

i mean, isn't that what Shovel ready is all about, polishing a resessionary turd into a microeconomy despite the marcoeconomic hordes at the gates?

anyways, i find this article revealing about old vs. new capitalism>

What Made Leaders of the Past Successful? | Economy In Crisis

see, i'm not big on this free market thing, especially when that freedom includes concentrated power in fewer hands

that's not my brand of capitalism, and the #'s out there prove it imho....

~S~

 

[Sallow]

I agree with itfitzme on this one. The business cycle is a creation of monetary policies. It is not a process of which is inherent to capitalism. Or we would have seen the same constant bubbles during the classical gold standard. They are pleasantly absent during that time frame.

Oh bullshit.

Capitalism is alot more then "private property" rights. Inherent in that system is markets and competition. Along with that comes pitfalls like "bubbles". Which is why monetary policies are necessary to stablize markets when they become to unwieldy.

 

[Sallow]

I guess it must be Itfits' turn to bang heads withthe gold bugs.

We've seen this happen over and over again.

Gold bugs cannot be squashed by facts or reason.

Gold Buggery is a FAITH BASED economic theory.

Want to know where GOLD BUGS basic premise is wrong?

Ask them if gold has intensic value and that is why it is a good specie.
You see, they think units of measure of past work are real-er than the work that species represents.

They believe thast STUFF has value BEFORE humans give it value,

Basicially these people don't understand what money really represents.

Gold was money more than 6,000 years for a reason. I'm not going to spell it out for you. The intrinsic value, comes from several things about gold. It, like many items, requires labor to obtain, the energy from which all the market place derives from, being part of it. It's also, rare, maluable, almost indestructable, easy to recognize and impossible to counterfeit (unless based on purity).


I suppose everyone that came before was stupid and we suddenly figured it all out in the last 100 years. That would be why this entire system is facing a masssive collapse (Imm sure you'll disagree with that too). We see boom/bust harder and faster each time and the debasement of the money is a great thing. I really do not have an interest in arguing with people over gold in this thread. There are several like it.

You either understand that exchange medium arised naturally through human action/markets, or you believe that governments are the ones who decided it is a good idea. One is right, the other is wrong. Plain and simple.

Well Stated. Government manipulating the value of the dollar, inflating it, so it can more easily pay off loans, doesn't do much good if the Government continues to borrow at an increased rate. Plain and simple. No matter what standard you are on. We are not disciplined enough for the Gold Standard yet, because of the Shell Game, which is the cause of the cycles.

The gold standard is bullshit as well. Seriously..what makes gold so valuable anyway? It's not like its very useful for anything. Same with money. These are "human constructs" and given the size of our present economy..there isn't enough gold to back our currency.

So you couldn't really have if you wanted too.

 

[sparky]

The intrinsic value, comes from several things about CHICKENS. It, like many items, requires labor to obtain, the energy from which all the market place derives from, being part of it. It's also, rare, maluable, almost indestructable, easy to recognize and impossible to counterfeit (unless based on purity).

a touch of perspective.....~S~

 

[TakeAStepBack]

Chickens are not rare, indestructible or have ease of mobility (besides the fact they must be fed to stay alive) They do require labor, but what amount of labor to the level of rarity vs. other items?

We could trade say, 5 chickens for one cow. Cows raise slower, therefore require more labor (feed, husbandry, etc..). That would be barter. Now if I have chickens and need candles but the candle maker needs/wants shoes, I need to go find a shoemaker that wants chickens to exchange for shoes in order to get candles. This is the complex inefficiency of barter exchange. Which is where a medium of exchange was discovered in order to quell such complexity and bring something in people will use in concert to create a more efficient market. A brilliant human action.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

Gold was money more than 6,000 years for a reason. I'm not going to spell it out for you. The intrinsic value, comes from several things about gold. It, like many items, requires labor to obtain, the energy from which all the market place derives from, being part of it. It's also, rare, maluable, almost indestructable, easy to recognize and impossible to counterfeit (unless based on purity).


I suppose everyone that came before was stupid and we suddenly figured it all out in the last 100 years. That would be why this entire system is facing a masssive collapse (Imm sure you'll disagree with that too). We see boom/bust harder and faster each time and the debasement of the money is a great thing. I really do not have an interest in arguing with people over gold in this thread. There are several like it.

You either understand that exchange medium arised naturally through human action/markets, or you believe that governments are the ones who decided it is a good idea. One is right, the other is wrong. Plain and simple.

Well Stated. Government manipulating the value of the dollar, inflating it, so it can more easily pay off loans, doesn't do much good if the Government continues to borrow at an increased rate. Plain and simple. No matter what standard you are on. We are not disciplined enough for the Gold Standard yet, because of the Shell Game, which is the cause of the cycles.

The gold standard is bullshit as well. Seriously..what makes gold so valuable anyway? It's not like its very useful for anything. Same with money. These are "human constructs" and given the size of our present economy..there isn't enough gold to back our currency.

So you couldn't really have if you wanted too.

You should read more books and talk less nonsense. Not useful for anything? Gold is one of the best electrical conductors on earth. It has plenty of industrial uses on top of the intrinsic values I stated IN the quote you re-posted.

It isn't the amount of gold, it is the "price" that is important. You can run an entire economy on an ounce of gold. At this point, to re-instate gold as a currency anchor would be quite difficult to accomplish. Which is why DSGE is right about allowing free banking and currency. Break up the monopoly on paper money the FRN holds now and allow communitites, states, etc...use whatever they like. Though this is extremely volatile as Murry Rothbard points out in the above I quoted of his work. Prices then become complex as currencies find common ground for exchange rates.

 

[Liberty]

"Call it what you want—capitalism, free enterprise, laissez faire or whatever—but a system that upholds property rights and otherwise allows free people to be themselves is remarkable precisely because it’s NOT a 'system' per se. No deluded, pretentious planners devise or direct it. It’s no Rube Goldberg contraption of mandates and decrees. It’s simply what happens when you leave peaceful people alone. They produce more and satisfy human wants to a far greater extent than empty nanny-state promises could ever hope to deliver" -- Lawrence Reed.

 

[sparky]

Chickens are not rare, indestructible or have ease of mobility (besides the fact they must be fed to stay alive)

seen one of these lately Step>
Bantam turken rooster - YouTube

They do require labor, but what amount of labor to the level of rarity vs. other items?

oh, it's all an earth thing, trust me....

We could trade say, 5 chickens for one cow. Cows raise slower, therefore require more labor (feed, husbandry, etc..). That would be barter. Now if I have chickens and need candles but the candle maker needs/wants shoes, I need to go find a shoemaker that wants chickens to exchange for shoes in order to get candles. This is the complex inefficiency of barter exchange. Which is where a medium of exchange was discovered in order to quell such complexity and bring something in people will use in concert to create a more efficient market. A brilliant human action.

what your basically alluding to is the ease and simplcity of a mode of exchange, which in any social scheme has some sort of agreed benchmark

in any trade relationship this is established

however, any agreement can be prostituted

which, given the implications of every fiat in human history going China (pun intended)translates to that bar of Gold you're so proud of in your pocket assuming something south of a palatable catetori........

Bon Appétit

~S~

 

[TakeAStepBack]

So, that turkey is rare, maluable, indestructible and easily mobile .Sounds like nonsense. Jibberish even.

Anyway, business cycles are exacerbated and are caused predictably by bad monetary policies. It is not, to any extreme as we see today, the product of capitalism. Yes though, a hard money anchor helps maintain a much more stable market atmosphere.

 

[Widdekind]

I guess Say is what we'd call real old school capitalism DSGE, back to the dawn of the industrial revolution

anyways, i got it from here>
Say's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He also wrote, that it is not the abundance of money but the abundance of other products in general that facilitates sales:

perhaps "Say's law" is more correctly called "Say's co-relation", i.e.

• general abundance of products, i.e. "high Demand market-wide"
• specific abundance of sales of one product, i.e. "high Demand product-specific"

are co-related, and tend to co-incide.

 

[Widdekind]

...pitfalls like "bubbles". Which is why monetary policies are necessary to stablize markets

private-sector policies are preferable, to Public Policies; for the former involve no implied Threat of Government Force, but are wholly voluntary. Cp. private "certifications", imbued with market value, without invoking Government.

 

[DSGE]

It isn't the amount of gold, it is the "price" that is important. You can run an entire economy on an ounce of gold.

But why would you? Why would gold be used to back currency if you can't redeem the currency for physical gold and then use that gold in exchanges instead of banknotes. Kind of loses the "real money" property goldbugs like to imagine if there's only one ounce in existence.

At this point, to re-instate gold as a currency anchor would be quite difficult to accomplish. Which is why DSGE is right about allowing free banking and currency. Break up the monopoly on paper money the FRN holds now and allow communitites, states, etc...use whatever they like. Though this is extremely volatile as Murry Rothbard points out in the above I quoted of his work. Prices then become complex as currencies find common ground for exchange rates.

In a mature free banking system competing banknotes circulate at par. Since we already have all the transaction and clearinghouse infrastructure, I suspect that a modern free banking system would reach maturity very quickly.

 

[sparky]

So, that turkey is rare, maluable, indestructible and easily mobile .Sounds like nonsense. Jibberish even.

sure

Anyway, business cycles are exacerbated and are caused predictably by bad monetary policies. It is not, to any extreme as we see today, the product of capitalism. Yes though, a hard money anchor helps maintain a much more stable market atmosphere.

so.......

what would you say is a bad monetary policy?


and,

could the gub'mit confiscate the anchor?

~S~