Old City Jerusalem as an Independent Sovereignty

[Rigby5]

It is NOT Israel that secures shared equal access to the holy and historical sites.
It is the Arab Muslims who control the Temple Mount.

Um. You do realize that there is NO SHARED EQUAL ACCESS to the Temple Mount, right? And the reason there is no shared equal access to the Temple Mount is because, while Israel certainly does control it, in point of fact, Israel, for security reasons, must appease violent Muslims who are unwilling to share the holy place. Israel accomplishes this security need by intentionally restricting access to non-Muslims.

The CAUSE of the inequality is Muslim inability to share a holy site, backed up with violence.

Wrong.
Israelis are allowed equal access, but the only part that could possibly be of interest to Jews is the Wailing Wall, not the shrine at the top.
But Jews are also allowed full access to all of the Temple mount except the mosque.

{...
When visiting Jerusalem, many people have a desire to visit the Temple Mount and the Dome of the Rock. The Temple Mount is a holy site within the Old City for Jewish, Christian and Muslim people. All visitors are able to tour the compound and the Al-Aqsa Mosque, with the exception of the Dome of the Rock. The best way to visit the site is with a guided Temple Mount tour which we are pleased to offer with guaranteed departures.

The Temple Mount is the third holiest site for Muslims behind Mecca and Medina. In Muslim tradition, this is where the Prophet Mohammed made his “Night Journey” to the throne of God. In the seventh century, when the Muslims conquered Jerusalem, they built the Dome of the Rock, the gold-topped Islamic shrine seen in many iconic photographs of the Old City, as well as the Al-Aqsa Mosque.

Today, within the area of the Temple Mount, there are about 100 different structures to see spanning from various time periods. These include prayer spots, arches and fountains. It is definitely worth the visit.

As there are certain restrictions for visitors, it is important to understand these rules before you go.

Visiting the Temple Mount
Visitors enter the complex through the Mughrabi Gate near the Western Wall. Many people will see the entrance as they walk through the Western Wall plaza on a tour of the Old City.

While admission is free, the site is only open during very specific times. Because of this, the line can be very long to enter. It’s best to arrive early to access this unforgettable site.
...}

Visiting the Temple Mount and Dome of the Rock

 

[Shusha]

What is the incentive for Israel to share jurisdiction over a place where it already has full control?

Compromise only makes sense where there is something to gain by it.

Because Israel has no legal authority to any of Jerusalem.
The 1949 UN partition made Jerusalem a separate entity that is supposed to be controlled by the UN, not Israel or Palestine.
So do you want the Rule of Law, or the rule of the jungle, where might makes right?

181 is not law.

Well 181 is the best that Israel can claim, so if it is not law, then Israel has no legal existence at all.

Eye roll. San Remo. Mandate for Palestine. Principles of self-determination for peoples.

The Treaty of San Remo gives absolutely no sovereignty to Jews or Jewish immigrants.
And by the way, it actually is the Treaty of Sevres that determined the legal fate of Palestine.
The British Mandate for Palestine is clearly explained by the Churchill Whitepaper as definitely precluding any Jewish sovereignty.
Jews are an immigrant minority, so get ZERO right to rule under principles of self determination of indigenous people.

The Jewish people are the indigenous peoples.

The Mandate for Palestine is clearly explained in the Mandate for Palestine. It specifically and exclusively invites Jewish participation in Jewish Self-government.

Sam Remo has the force of law.

And the Treaty of Sevres was never ratified and replaced by the Treat of Lausanne.

 

[Rigby5]

What is the incentive for Israel to share jurisdiction over a place where it already has full control?

Compromise only makes sense where there is something to gain by it.

Because Israel has no legal authority to any of Jerusalem.
The 1949 UN partition made Jerusalem a separate entity that is supposed to be controlled by the UN, not Israel or Palestine.
So do you want the Rule of Law, or the rule of the jungle, where might makes right?

Something no one mentioned when Jordan kicked out the UN by force in 1948 and annexed the territory for nearly 20 years.

Totally incorrect.
The UN took no part at all in any of the 1948 events.
And clearly the IDF was illegally attempting to attack and invade the West Bank, and had pierced deeply into the Palestinian side of the UN partition.
The Israeli side of the UN partition was not at all including or even near to the West Bank.
Jordan was forced to intervene in order to prevent capture of Jerusalem by the Israelis, and the Jordanians won.
Israel was defeated, and did not occupy Jerusalem until their invasion in 1967.
If Israel has not tried to invade, then Jordan would not have had to defend Jerusalem.
It was all Israel's fault.
You can not blame Jordan.

Jordanian annexation of the West Bank - Wikipedia

Don’t be ridiculous. Jordan had absolutely no right to cross an international boundary and take control of territory not under her sovereignty.

No country has a right to take control of non-sovereign territory using violence.

Wrong.
Any country may aid another that is illegally being attacked.
Israel was illegally attacking Jerusalem.
That is what the British would also have done, defending Jerusalem from the illegal Israeli attack.
The UN should have also.
The attempt to violate sovereignty by force was a crime only committed by Israel.

 

[Shusha]

It is NOT Israel that secures shared equal access to the holy and historical sites.
It is the Arab Muslims who control the Temple Mount.

Um. You do realize that there is NO SHARED EQUAL ACCESS to the Temple Mount, right? And the reason there is no shared equal access to the Temple Mount is because, while Israel certainly does control it, in point of fact, Israel, for security reasons, must appease violent Muslims who are unwilling to share the holy place. Israel accomplishes this security need by intentionally restricting access to non-Muslims.

The CAUSE of the inequality is Muslim inability to share a holy site, backed up with violence.

Wrong.
Israelis are allowed equal access, but the only part that could possibly be of interest to Jews is the Wailing Wall, not the shrine at the top.
But Jews are also allowed full access to all of the Temple mount except the mosque.

Jews are not allowed equal access. They are restricted. They are especially restricted in their ability to carry objects which are Jewish symbols, to pray, to worship, and to walk without being accosted by Muslims spewing hatred.

Further, the Holiest place in Judaism is NOT the Kotel. The Kotel is a substitute because Jews are not able to fully access their actual holy places.

 

[Rigby5]

Because Israel has no legal authority to any of Jerusalem.
The 1949 UN partition made Jerusalem a separate entity that is supposed to be controlled by the UN, not Israel or Palestine.
So do you want the Rule of Law, or the rule of the jungle, where might makes right?

181 is not law.

Well 181 is the best that Israel can claim, so if it is not law, then Israel has no legal existence at all.

Eye roll. San Remo. Mandate for Palestine. Principles of self-determination for peoples.

The Treaty of San Remo gives absolutely no sovereignty to Jews or Jewish immigrants.
And by the way, it actually is the Treaty of Sevres that determined the legal fate of Palestine.
The British Mandate for Palestine is clearly explained by the Churchill Whitepaper as definitely precluding any Jewish sovereignty.
Jews are an immigrant minority, so get ZERO right to rule under principles of self determination of indigenous people.

The Jewish people are the indigenous peoples.

The Mandate for Palestine is clearly explained in the Mandate for Palestine. It specifically and exclusively invites Jewish participation in Jewish Self-government.

Sam Remo has the force of law.

And the Treaty of Sevres was never ratified and replaced by the Treat of Lausanne.

Nonsense.
Jews are not nor ever have been the indigenous people of Palestine, the Land of Canaan, the Levant, or whatever you want to call it.
The original Hebrew tribe origin is unknown, but it is likely either the Sinai or Egypt.

And the British Mandate for Palestine specifically does NOT at all allow for any Jewish participation in government.
And the Treaty of Sevres WAS ratified on 10 August 1920.
The Treaty of Lausanne in 1923 had nothing at all to do with Palestine, but instead established the country of Turkey out of what was left of the Ottoman Empire.
Treaty of Sèvres - Wikipedia

And current Israeli Jews clearly have never come from a desert climate like the Mideast.
They clearly do not at all belong there.

 

[Rigby5]

It is NOT Israel that secures shared equal access to the holy and historical sites.
It is the Arab Muslims who control the Temple Mount.

Um. You do realize that there is NO SHARED EQUAL ACCESS to the Temple Mount, right? And the reason there is no shared equal access to the Temple Mount is because, while Israel certainly does control it, in point of fact, Israel, for security reasons, must appease violent Muslims who are unwilling to share the holy place. Israel accomplishes this security need by intentionally restricting access to non-Muslims.

The CAUSE of the inequality is Muslim inability to share a holy site, backed up with violence.

Wrong.
Israelis are allowed equal access, but the only part that could possibly be of interest to Jews is the Wailing Wall, not the shrine at the top.
But Jews are also allowed full access to all of the Temple mount except the mosque.

Jews are not allowed equal access. They are restricted. They are especially restricted in their ability to carry objects which are Jewish symbols, to pray, to worship, and to walk without being accosted by Muslims spewing hatred.

Further, the Holiest place in Judaism is NOT the Kotel. The Kotel is a substitute because Jews are not able to fully access their actual holy places.

There actually are no known holy places to Jews on the Temple Mount.
They do not know where even the Roman built second temple of Solomon was, and they are just guessing about the Wailing Wall. There has ever been even a remote guess as to where the actual Jewish Temple of Solomon may have been, if it even ever existed at all.

And it is just corruption for anyone to bring Jewish religious symbols to the Temple Mount because any religious Jew would still be atoning on some other land, waiting for the coming of the Messiah.

 

[Picaro]

What is the incentive for Israel to share jurisdiction over a place where it already has full control?

Compromise only makes sense where there is something to gain by it.

Well, Israel's jurisdiction is mediated by the necessity to appease the worldwide Muslim community. So to say Israel has "full control" is ... well, generous.

The worldwide Muslim community can't be appeased, only placated. So, if your damned if you do, damned if you don't, why commit to either?

Exactly.

 

[Picaro]

How much of the 'Old City' is still 'Old' now? How would this plan affect ruining sites already in existence but near enough to affect the other sects' 'area'? I don't see this as being run effectively by some 'committee' that includes either Hamas Muslims or lunatic Chassiids with only a few 'moderates standing between them.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

It is NOT Israel that secures shared equal access to the holy and historical sites.
It is the Arab Muslims who control the Temple Mount.

Um. You do realize that there is NO SHARED EQUAL ACCESS to the Temple Mount, right? And the reason there is no shared equal access to the Temple Mount is because, while Israel certainly does control it, in point of fact, Israel, for security reasons, must appease violent Muslims who are unwilling to share the holy place. Israel accomplishes this security need by intentionally restricting access to non-Muslims.

The CAUSE of the inequality is Muslim inability to share a holy site, backed up with violence.

Wrong.
Israelis are allowed equal access, but the only part that could possibly be of interest to Jews is the Wailing Wall, not the shrine at the top.
But Jews are also allowed full access to all of the Temple mount except the mosque.

Jews are not allowed equal access. They are restricted. They are especially restricted in their ability to carry objects which are Jewish symbols, to pray, to worship, and to walk without being accosted by Muslims spewing hatred.

Further, the Holiest place in Judaism is NOT the Kotel. The Kotel is a substitute because Jews are not able to fully access their actual holy places.

There actually are no known holy places to Jews on the Temple Mount.
They do not know where even the Roman built second temple of Solomon was, and they are just guessing about the Wailing Wall. There has ever been even a remote guess as to where the actual Jewish Temple of Solomon may have been, if it even ever existed at all.

And it is just corruption for anyone to bring Jewish religious symbols to the Temple Mount because any religious Jew would still be atoning on some other land, waiting for the coming of the Messiah.

If you're going to comment on this Board, at least know some history and archaeology, and also know what you're talking about. First of all, Solomon's Temple was a different structure than the Second Temple. Although there is less evidence for the First Temple than for the Second, it's still highly unlikely that its existence was simply made up completely.
Secondly, the evidence for the Second Temple is overwhelming, thanks to Josephus and other historians of that era, the New Testament, the Arch of Titus in Rome, and archaeological artifacts found on the Temple Mount (which the Arabs try to cover up and destroy). In fact, the only reason the Dome of the Rock is there at all, is because Muslims always try and appropriate the holy sites of other faiths. The Arabic name for Jerusalem, al-Quds, means the place of the Temple. King Herod's Temple is well-documented, and so is its position on the Temple Mount. Its style was Herod's building style as can be seen by Herodian, Masada and the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron. The Western Wall was a retaining wall of the Temple's enclosure. Furthermore, you say the Romans built the Second Temple, but that's not actually true. It was built by the Jews after their return from Babylon. King Herod, who was a puppet of the Romans, merely enlarged and beautified it. The Temple Mount has always been the holiest site for Jews, and they know exactly where it is. Let me end this post by saying that the State of Israel without Jerusalem would be like a body without a heart or soul. There would be almost no reason for Israel's very existence if she were to lose Jerusalem in its entirety.

 

[Picaro]

It is NOT Israel that secures shared equal access to the holy and historical sites.
It is the Arab Muslims who control the Temple Mount.

Um. You do realize that there is NO SHARED EQUAL ACCESS to the Temple Mount, right? And the reason there is no shared equal access to the Temple Mount is because, while Israel certainly does control it, in point of fact, Israel, for security reasons, must appease violent Muslims who are unwilling to share the holy place. Israel accomplishes this security need by intentionally restricting access to non-Muslims.

The CAUSE of the inequality is Muslim inability to share a holy site, backed up with violence.

Wrong.
Israelis are allowed equal access, but the only part that could possibly be of interest to Jews is the Wailing Wall, not the shrine at the top.
But Jews are also allowed full access to all of the Temple mount except the mosque.

Jews are not allowed equal access. They are restricted. They are especially restricted in their ability to carry objects which are Jewish symbols, to pray, to worship, and to walk without being accosted by Muslims spewing hatred.

Further, the Holiest place in Judaism is NOT the Kotel. The Kotel is a substitute because Jews are not able to fully access their actual holy places.

There actually are no known holy places to Jews on the Temple Mount.
They do not know where even the Roman built second temple of Solomon was, and they are just guessing about the Wailing Wall. There has ever been even a remote guess as to where the actual Jewish Temple of Solomon may have been, if it even ever existed at all.

And it is just corruption for anyone to bring Jewish religious symbols to the Temple Mount because any religious Jew would still be atoning on some other land, waiting for the coming of the Messiah.

lollerz.

 

[USAF 2023]

What is the incentive for Israel to share jurisdiction over a place where it already has full control?

Compromise only makes sense where there is something to gain by it.

Because Israel has no legal authority to any of Jerusalem.
The 1949 UN partition made Jerusalem a separate entity that is supposed to be controlled by the UN, not Israel or Palestine.
So do you want the Rule of Law, or the rule of the jungle, where might makes right?

Tell us please then why the U.N. Didn’t intervene when they were denied by Jordan to access to their Religious Sites?


ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamization_of_East_Jerusalem_under_Jordanian_occupation

 

[Indeependent]

I was reading a lengthy proposal for a peace agreement today. Mostly the same old same old. Whatever.

But! One intriguing idea which was presented is a self-governing, self-determining. independent State of Holy City Jerusalem. The proposal itself was rather messy in that it suggested that the Old City be "run by G-d", which I hope we all agree is ... well, *impractical* at best.

The idea is worth visiting, imo. (Not saying I agree with it, just that its an interesting topic of discussion).

The Old City becomes a separate, sovereign, independent State. Constitutional principles would include absolute guarantee of equality for people of all religions (or none), ethnicities, nationalities, etc to freely visit, pray, live, travel, worship, shop. The interior spaces of each religious faith's monuments would be under the guidance of that particular religious faith: Al Aqsa Mosque and Dome of the Rock governed by Muslims and Islamic law; the Churches governed by Christians, the Kotel (partitioned areas considered "interior space") by Jewish law. All exterior spaces would be open to anyone. A multi-faith monument would be opened, creating an interior space which could be utilized by people of all faiths and governed by an multi-faith body. Official languages would be Hebrew and Arabic. Family law would be based on individual's preference: sharia, halakha or secular (all three would be provided).

Government representation is based on equal consideration for the Jewish and Arab peoples, with each peoples having a set number of seats in Parliament, regardless of proportional population (10 seats for Arabs, 10 seats for Jews).

All normal rights of States are assumed.

Neither Israel, nor an eventual Palestine has authority or sovereignty. Nor do any other international actors.



Thoughts?

DOA

 

[Indeependent]

It is NOT Israel that secures shared equal access to the holy and historical sites.
It is the Arab Muslims who control the Temple Mount.

Um. You do realize that there is NO SHARED EQUAL ACCESS to the Temple Mount, right? And the reason there is no shared equal access to the Temple Mount is because, while Israel certainly does control it, in point of fact, Israel, for security reasons, must appease violent Muslims who are unwilling to share the holy place. Israel accomplishes this security need by intentionally restricting access to non-Muslims.

The CAUSE of the inequality is Muslim inability to share a holy site, backed up with violence.

Wrong.
Israelis are allowed equal access, but the only part that could possibly be of interest to Jews is the Wailing Wall, not the shrine at the top.
But Jews are also allowed full access to all of the Temple mount except the mosque.

Jews are not allowed equal access. They are restricted. They are especially restricted in their ability to carry objects which are Jewish symbols, to pray, to worship, and to walk without being accosted by Muslims spewing hatred.

Further, the Holiest place in Judaism is NOT the Kotel. The Kotel is a substitute because Jews are not able to fully access their actual holy places.

There actually are no known holy places to Jews on the Temple Mount.
They do not know where even the Roman built second temple of Solomon was, and they are just guessing about the Wailing Wall. There has ever been even a remote guess as to where the actual Jewish Temple of Solomon may have been, if it even ever existed at all.

And it is just corruption for anyone to bring Jewish religious symbols to the Temple Mount because any religious Jew would still be atoning on some other land, waiting for the coming of the Messiah.

If you can’t dazzle with brilliance, baffle with bullshit.
You post so many lies it’s not worth getting dizzy over them.

 

[Shusha]

I was reading a lengthy proposal for a peace agreement today. Mostly the same old same old. Whatever.

But! One intriguing idea which was presented is a self-governing, self-determining. independent State of Holy City Jerusalem. The proposal itself was rather messy in that it suggested that the Old City be "run by G-d", which I hope we all agree is ... well, *impractical* at best.

The idea is worth visiting, imo. (Not saying I agree with it, just that its an interesting topic of discussion).

The Old City becomes a separate, sovereign, independent State. Constitutional principles would include absolute guarantee of equality for people of all religions (or none), ethnicities, nationalities, etc to freely visit, pray, live, travel, worship, shop. The interior spaces of each religious faith's monuments would be under the guidance of that particular religious faith: Al Aqsa Mosque and Dome of the Rock governed by Muslims and Islamic law; the Churches governed by Christians, the Kotel (partitioned areas considered "interior space") by Jewish law. All exterior spaces would be open to anyone. A multi-faith monument would be opened, creating an interior space which could be utilized by people of all faiths and governed by an multi-faith body. Official languages would be Hebrew and Arabic. Family law would be based on individual's preference: sharia, halakha or secular (all three would be provided).

Government representation is based on equal consideration for the Jewish and Arab peoples, with each peoples having a set number of seats in Parliament, regardless of proportional population (10 seats for Arabs, 10 seats for Jews).

All normal rights of States are assumed.

Neither Israel, nor an eventual Palestine has authority or sovereignty. Nor do any other international actors.



Thoughts?

DOA

The idea or the discussion?

 

[Indeependent]

I was reading a lengthy proposal for a peace agreement today. Mostly the same old same old. Whatever.

But! One intriguing idea which was presented is a self-governing, self-determining. independent State of Holy City Jerusalem. The proposal itself was rather messy in that it suggested that the Old City be "run by G-d", which I hope we all agree is ... well, *impractical* at best.

The idea is worth visiting, imo. (Not saying I agree with it, just that its an interesting topic of discussion).

The Old City becomes a separate, sovereign, independent State. Constitutional principles would include absolute guarantee of equality for people of all religions (or none), ethnicities, nationalities, etc to freely visit, pray, live, travel, worship, shop. The interior spaces of each religious faith's monuments would be under the guidance of that particular religious faith: Al Aqsa Mosque and Dome of the Rock governed by Muslims and Islamic law; the Churches governed by Christians, the Kotel (partitioned areas considered "interior space") by Jewish law. All exterior spaces would be open to anyone. A multi-faith monument would be opened, creating an interior space which could be utilized by people of all faiths and governed by an multi-faith body. Official languages would be Hebrew and Arabic. Family law would be based on individual's preference: sharia, halakha or secular (all three would be provided).

Government representation is based on equal consideration for the Jewish and Arab peoples, with each peoples having a set number of seats in Parliament, regardless of proportional population (10 seats for Arabs, 10 seats for Jews).

All normal rights of States are assumed.

Neither Israel, nor an eventual Palestine has authority or sovereignty. Nor do any other international actors.



Thoughts?

DOA

The idea or the discussion?

Rigby’s historical twist of facts and artifacts.

 

[rylah]

I was reading a lengthy proposal for a peace agreement today. Mostly the same old same old. Whatever.

But! One intriguing idea which was presented is a self-governing, self-determining. independent State of Holy City Jerusalem. The proposal itself was rather messy in that it suggested that the Old City be "run by G-d", which I hope we all agree is ... well, *impractical* at best.

The idea is worth visiting, imo. (Not saying I agree with it, just that its an interesting topic of discussion).

The Old City becomes a separate, sovereign, independent State. Constitutional principles would include absolute guarantee of equality for people of all religions (or none), ethnicities, nationalities, etc to freely visit, pray, live, travel, worship, shop. The interior spaces of each religious faith's monuments would be under the guidance of that particular religious faith: Al Aqsa Mosque and Dome of the Rock governed by Muslims and Islamic law; the Churches governed by Christians, the Kotel (partitioned areas considered "interior space") by Jewish law. All exterior spaces would be open to anyone. A multi-faith monument would be opened, creating an interior space which could be utilized by people of all faiths and governed by an multi-faith body. Official languages would be Hebrew and Arabic. Family law would be based on individual's preference: sharia, halakha or secular (all three would be provided).

Government representation is based on equal consideration for the Jewish and Arab peoples, with each peoples having a set number of seats in Parliament, regardless of proportional population (10 seats for Arabs, 10 seats for Jews).

All normal rights of States are assumed.

Neither Israel, nor an eventual Palestine has authority or sovereignty. Nor do any other international actors.



Thoughts?

DOA

Masa'ey 53
No alternatives.

 

[rylah]

I was reading a lengthy proposal for a peace agreement today. Mostly the same old same old. Whatever.

But! One intriguing idea which was presented is a self-governing, self-determining. independent State of Holy City Jerusalem. The proposal itself was rather messy in that it suggested that the Old City be "run by G-d", which I hope we all agree is ... well, *impractical* at best.

The idea is worth visiting, imo. (Not saying I agree with it, just that its an interesting topic of discussion).

The Old City becomes a separate, sovereign, independent State. Constitutional principles would include absolute guarantee of equality for people of all religions (or none), ethnicities, nationalities, etc to freely visit, pray, live, travel, worship, shop. The interior spaces of each religious faith's monuments would be under the guidance of that particular religious faith: Al Aqsa Mosque and Dome of the Rock governed by Muslims and Islamic law; the Churches governed by Christians, the Kotel (partitioned areas considered "interior space") by Jewish law. All exterior spaces would be open to anyone. A multi-faith monument would be opened, creating an interior space which could be utilized by people of all faiths and governed by an multi-faith body. Official languages would be Hebrew and Arabic. Family law would be based on individual's preference: sharia, halakha or secular (all three would be provided).

Government representation is based on equal consideration for the Jewish and Arab peoples, with each peoples having a set number of seats in Parliament, regardless of proportional population (10 seats for Arabs, 10 seats for Jews).

All normal rights of States are assumed.

Neither Israel, nor an eventual Palestine has authority or sovereignty. Nor do any other international actors.



Thoughts?

Shusha, this hurts on so many levels...
The complete opposite of tikkun 'olam.

 

[Shusha]

I was reading a lengthy proposal for a peace agreement today. Mostly the same old same old. Whatever.

But! One intriguing idea which was presented is a self-governing, self-determining. independent State of Holy City Jerusalem. The proposal itself was rather messy in that it suggested that the Old City be "run by G-d", which I hope we all agree is ... well, *impractical* at best.

The idea is worth visiting, imo. (Not saying I agree with it, just that its an interesting topic of discussion).

The Old City becomes a separate, sovereign, independent State. Constitutional principles would include absolute guarantee of equality for people of all religions (or none), ethnicities, nationalities, etc to freely visit, pray, live, travel, worship, shop. The interior spaces of each religious faith's monuments would be under the guidance of that particular religious faith: Al Aqsa Mosque and Dome of the Rock governed by Muslims and Islamic law; the Churches governed by Christians, the Kotel (partitioned areas considered "interior space") by Jewish law. All exterior spaces would be open to anyone. A multi-faith monument would be opened, creating an interior space which could be utilized by people of all faiths and governed by an multi-faith body. Official languages would be Hebrew and Arabic. Family law would be based on individual's preference: sharia, halakha or secular (all three would be provided).

Government representation is based on equal consideration for the Jewish and Arab peoples, with each peoples having a set number of seats in Parliament, regardless of proportional population (10 seats for Arabs, 10 seats for Jews).

All normal rights of States are assumed.

Neither Israel, nor an eventual Palestine has authority or sovereignty. Nor do any other international actors.



Thoughts?

Shusha, this hurts on so many levels.
The complete opposite of tikkun olam.

How so?

 

[rylah]

I was reading a lengthy proposal for a peace agreement today. Mostly the same old same old. Whatever.

But! One intriguing idea which was presented is a self-governing, self-determining. independent State of Holy City Jerusalem. The proposal itself was rather messy in that it suggested that the Old City be "run by G-d", which I hope we all agree is ... well, *impractical* at best.

The idea is worth visiting, imo. (Not saying I agree with it, just that its an interesting topic of discussion).

The Old City becomes a separate, sovereign, independent State. Constitutional principles would include absolute guarantee of equality for people of all religions (or none), ethnicities, nationalities, etc to freely visit, pray, live, travel, worship, shop. The interior spaces of each religious faith's monuments would be under the guidance of that particular religious faith: Al Aqsa Mosque and Dome of the Rock governed by Muslims and Islamic law; the Churches governed by Christians, the Kotel (partitioned areas considered "interior space") by Jewish law. All exterior spaces would be open to anyone. A multi-faith monument would be opened, creating an interior space which could be utilized by people of all faiths and governed by an multi-faith body. Official languages would be Hebrew and Arabic. Family law would be based on individual's preference: sharia, halakha or secular (all three would be provided).

Government representation is based on equal consideration for the Jewish and Arab peoples, with each peoples having a set number of seats in Parliament, regardless of proportional population (10 seats for Arabs, 10 seats for Jews).

All normal rights of States are assumed.

Neither Israel, nor an eventual Palestine has authority or sovereignty. Nor do any other international actors.



Thoughts?

Shusha, this hurts on so many levels.
The complete opposite of tikkun olam.

How so?

This is tikkun 'olam:

We therefore hope in thee, Hashem our God, that we may speedily behold the glory of thy might, when thou wilt remove the abominations from the earth, and the idols will be utterly cut off, when the world will be perfected under the kingdom of the Almighty, and all the children of flesh will call upon thy name, when thou wilt turn unto thyself all the wicked of the earth. Let all the inhabitants of the world perceive and know that unto thee every knee must bow, every tongue must swear. Before thee, O Lord our God, let them bow and fall; and unto thy glorious name let them give honor; let them all accept the yoke of thy kingdom, and do thou reign over them speedily, and for ever and ever. For the kingdom is thine, and to all eternity thou wilt reign in glory; as it is written in thy Law, the Lord shall reign for ever and ever. And it is said, And the Lord shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall the Lord be One, and His name One."

 

[Shusha]

I was reading a lengthy proposal for a peace agreement today. Mostly the same old same old. Whatever.

But! One intriguing idea which was presented is a self-governing, self-determining. independent State of Holy City Jerusalem. The proposal itself was rather messy in that it suggested that the Old City be "run by G-d", which I hope we all agree is ... well, *impractical* at best.

The idea is worth visiting, imo. (Not saying I agree with it, just that its an interesting topic of discussion).

The Old City becomes a separate, sovereign, independent State. Constitutional principles would include absolute guarantee of equality for people of all religions (or none), ethnicities, nationalities, etc to freely visit, pray, live, travel, worship, shop. The interior spaces of each religious faith's monuments would be under the guidance of that particular religious faith: Al Aqsa Mosque and Dome of the Rock governed by Muslims and Islamic law; the Churches governed by Christians, the Kotel (partitioned areas considered "interior space") by Jewish law. All exterior spaces would be open to anyone. A multi-faith monument would be opened, creating an interior space which could be utilized by people of all faiths and governed by an multi-faith body. Official languages would be Hebrew and Arabic. Family law would be based on individual's preference: sharia, halakha or secular (all three would be provided).

Government representation is based on equal consideration for the Jewish and Arab peoples, with each peoples having a set number of seats in Parliament, regardless of proportional population (10 seats for Arabs, 10 seats for Jews).

All normal rights of States are assumed.

Neither Israel, nor an eventual Palestine has authority or sovereignty. Nor do any other international actors.



Thoughts?

Shusha, this hurts on so many levels.
The complete opposite of tikkun olam.

How so?

This is tikkun 'olam:

We therefore hope in thee, Hashem our God, that we may speedily behold the glory of thy might, when thou wilt remove the abominations from the earth, and the idols will be utterly cut off, when the world will be perfected under the kingdom of the Almighty, and all the children of flesh will call upon thy name, when thou wilt turn unto thyself all the wicked of the earth. Let all the inhabitants of the world perceive and know that unto thee every knee must bow, every tongue must swear. Before thee, O Lord our God, let them bow and fall; and unto thy glorious name let them give honor; let them all accept the yoke of thy kingdom, and do thou reign over them speedily, and for ever and ever. For the kingdom is thine, and to all eternity thou wilt reign in glory; as it is written in thy Law, the Lord shall reign for ever and ever. And it is said, And the Lord shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall the Lord be One, and His name One."

Sure. That is one way to express the concept of tikkun olam.

Tell me, how is a sovereign Old City of Jerusalem incompatible with this vision?

What does a repaired world look like? What should we be striving for in our work?