Ok, if it's not heredity...

[xsited1]

I don't have time to read the entire article. Please quote the portion that says Hispanics are engaging in overbreeding. I'm not talking about simply having babies, btw, I'm talking about people only breeding with their near relatives.

I wouldn't call it overbreeding, but they certainly have a much larger family size:

http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/hh-fam/cps2004/tabAVG1.csv

So you didn't actually have a point.

Yes. The point is you either don't understand the data or don't want to. You made the assertion and I provided the data.

 

[xotoxi]

Actually, that's not true. The stats ARE the evidence. It's just that they don't PROVE anything conclusively. And like I said earlier, they certainly don't disprove it either. But anyone with an intellectually honest, open mind can clearly see which side the stats favor.

Okay. Show me the stats that correlate specific genomic differences between whites and blacks to their differences in SAT scores and imprisonment rates.

There isn't any that I'm aware of. But I also don't recall making any claim regarding specific genomic differences. I'm merely referring to the statistical disparities on standardized testing between peoples of different ethnic origins.

I wasn't trying to imply that you personally made claims of genomic differences - but this thread is implying that, with regards to racial hereditary differences.

My argument is not that statistical disparities on standardized testing between peoples of different ethnic origins are not due to their ethnicities, but are more likely their socioeconomic background.

I don't have any stats, but I'm sure it would be easy to find.

I would be willing to bet that white people and black people who are from the same socioeconomic level would score statistically the same on tests, and would have the same imprisonment rates.

But, if you look at the ethinic population as a whole, because of the skews in socioeconomic situations, the testing results and imprisonment results are skewed as well.

The next question: which came first, the chicken or the egg?

 

[manifold]

Okay. Show me the stats that correlate specific genomic differences between whites and blacks to their differences in SAT scores and imprisonment rates.

There isn't any that I'm aware of. But I also don't recall making any claim regarding specific genomic differences. I'm merely referring to the statistical disparities on standardized testing between peoples of different ethnic origins.

I wasn't trying to imply that you personally made claims of genomic differences - but this thread is implying that, with regards to racial hereditary differences.

My argument is not that statistical disparities on standardized testing between peoples of different ethnic origins are not due to their ethnicities, but are more likely their socioeconomic background.

I don't have any stats, but I'm sure it would be easy to find.

I would be willing to bet that white people and black people who are from the same socioeconomic level would score statistically the same on tests, and would have the same imprisonment rates.

But, if you look at the ethinic population as a whole, because of the skews in socioeconomic situations, the testing results and imprisonment results are skewed as well.

The next question: which came first, the chicken or the egg?

I'm not going to comment on the imprisonment issue. I'm talking specifically about standardized testing. I read a book several years ago on the topic of IQ tests and IIRC, the data showed that the score variations were consistent regardless of socioeconomic class. Another interesting tidbit was the differences in men and women. On average, men and women score equally, but the standard deviation for men is about double that of women (i.e. more male geniuses and more male retards).

If you're interested:

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Question-Intelligence-IQ-Debate-America/dp/0806515074]Amazon.com: A Question of Intelligence: The IQ Debate in America: Daniel Seligman: Your Store[/ame]

 

[xsited1]

There isn't any that I'm aware of. But I also don't recall making any claim regarding specific genomic differences. I'm merely referring to the statistical disparities on standardized testing between peoples of different ethnic origins.

I wasn't trying to imply that you personally made claims of genomic differences - but this thread is implying that, with regards to racial hereditary differences.

My argument is not that statistical disparities on standardized testing between peoples of different ethnic origins are not due to their ethnicities, but are more likely their socioeconomic background.

I don't have any stats, but I'm sure it would be easy to find.

I would be willing to bet that white people and black people who are from the same socioeconomic level would score statistically the same on tests, and would have the same imprisonment rates.

But, if you look at the ethinic population as a whole, because of the skews in socioeconomic situations, the testing results and imprisonment results are skewed as well.

The next question: which came first, the chicken or the egg?

I'm not going to comment on the imprisonment issue. I'm talking specifically about standardized testing. I read a book several years ago on the topic of IQ tests and IIRC, the data showed that the score variations were consistent regardless of socioeconomic class. Another interesting tidbit was the differences in men and women. On average, men and women score equally, but the standard deviation for men is about double that of women (i.e. more male geniuses and more male retards).

If you're interested:

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Question-Intelligence-IQ-Debate-America/dp/0806515074]Amazon.com: A Question of Intelligence: The IQ Debate in America: Daniel Seligman: Your Store[/ame]

That's a very good book.

BTW, I have provided links and books for xotoxi to read which provide the data he claims he's looking for, but he doesn't seem to be interested. He has a certain view on this subject and I don't believe he is willing to change it.

 

[Valerie]

I don't know why you think I "so badly WANT it to be true"? I'm just making an observation of my own. I wonder why you so badly WANT to prove the opposite?

Are you saying that you don't want it to be true? That you'd prefer if your unsupported thesis was in fact false? That would indeed surprise me.

I don't want to prove anything badly. I'm just intrepretting the data objectively and without emotion.

The bottom line for me is that I think dismissing the big pink elephant does far more harm than good. Perhaps the statistical disparities in standardized testing are merely just as they seem, disparities in basic aptitude and not, as many WANT to believe, indicative of major flaws in our educational system. Maybe there really isn't a problem that we need to throw more tax money at. Have you ever considered that?

So you think statistics point to disparities in aptitude which are caused by race? Because they perhaps seem to according to your objective and unemotional analysis? Where are these stats that prove this? That's the pink elephant here.

not as many WANT to believe, indicative of major flaws in our educational system. Maybe there really isn't a problem that we need to throw more tax money at. Have you ever considered that?

Do you doubt our educational system has many flaws? Perhaps you think it would be flawless if only it weren't for the stupid inferior races dragging down the curve? I don't see where anyone claimed it was one or the other as you suggest what you think many WANT to believe about throwing money at it? I think there is currently plenty of money already in the system, but that's beside the point.

 

[Ravi]

I wouldn't call it overbreeding, but they certainly have a much larger family size:

http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/hh-fam/cps2004/tabAVG1.csv

So you didn't actually have a point.

Yes. The point is you either don't understand the data or don't want to. You made the assertion and I provided the data.

I asked you to show me where in that article it was written that Hispanics are engaging in overbreeding...again, not having a lot of babies but having babies with mainly their close relatives. I can't ignore something that you refuse to point out, lol.

 

[Valerie]

I wasn't trying to imply that you personally made claims of genomic differences - but this thread is implying that, with regards to racial hereditary differences.

My argument is not that statistical disparities on standardized testing between peoples of different ethnic origins are not due to their ethnicities, but are more likely their socioeconomic background.

I don't have any stats, but I'm sure it would be easy to find.

I would be willing to bet that white people and black people who are from the same socioeconomic level would score statistically the same on tests, and would have the same imprisonment rates.

But, if you look at the ethinic population as a whole, because of the skews in socioeconomic situations, the testing results and imprisonment results are skewed as well.

The next question: which came first, the chicken or the egg?

I'm not going to comment on the imprisonment issue. I'm talking specifically about standardized testing. I read a book several years ago on the topic of IQ tests and IIRC, the data showed that the score variations were consistent regardless of socioeconomic class. Another interesting tidbit was the differences in men and women. On average, men and women score equally, but the standard deviation for men is about double that of women (i.e. more male geniuses and more male retards).

If you're interested:

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Question-Intelligence-IQ-Debate-America/dp/0806515074]Amazon.com: A Question of Intelligence: The IQ Debate in America: Daniel Seligman: Your Store[/ame]

That's a very good book.

BTW, I have provided links and books for xotoxi to read which provide the data he claims he's looking for, but he doesn't seem to be interested. He has a certain view on this subject and I don't believe he is willing to change it.

Can you post the actual stats you're referring to?

 

[manifold]

So you think statistics point to disparities in aptitude which are caused by race? Because they perhaps seem to according to your objective and unemotional analysis? Where are these stats that prove this? That's the pink elephant here.

I don't know what you mean by "caused by race." There are real, observed and statistically significant disparities in how different ethnic groups perform on standardized testing. If it helps you sleep better to ignore that, then so be it.

Do you doubt our educational system has many flaws? Perhaps you think it would be flawless if only it weren't for the stupid inferior races dragging down the curve? I don't see where anyone claimed it was one or the other as you suggest what you think many WANT to believe about throwing money at it? I think there is currently plenty of money already in the system, but that's beside the point.

I think our educational system is certainly flawed. I think we surpassed the point of diminishing returns several billion dollars ago. I think we could spend a fraction of what we spend today to yield essentially the same return. I think we've been trying to "solve" a problem that isn't really a problem by throwing more money at it.

 

[Ravi]

There isn't any that I'm aware of. But I also don't recall making any claim regarding specific genomic differences. I'm merely referring to the statistical disparities on standardized testing between peoples of different ethnic origins.

I wasn't trying to imply that you personally made claims of genomic differences - but this thread is implying that, with regards to racial hereditary differences.

My argument is not that statistical disparities on standardized testing between peoples of different ethnic origins are not due to their ethnicities, but are more likely their socioeconomic background.

I don't have any stats, but I'm sure it would be easy to find.

I would be willing to bet that white people and black people who are from the same socioeconomic level would score statistically the same on tests, and would have the same imprisonment rates.

But, if you look at the ethinic population as a whole, because of the skews in socioeconomic situations, the testing results and imprisonment results are skewed as well.

The next question: which came first, the chicken or the egg?

I'm not going to comment on the imprisonment issue. I'm talking specifically about standardized testing. I read a book several years ago on the topic of IQ tests and IIRC, the data showed that the score variations were consistent regardless of socioeconomic class. Another interesting tidbit was the differences in men and women. On average, men and women score equally, but the standard deviation for men is about double that of women (i.e. more male geniuses and more male retards).

If you're interested:

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Question-Intelligence-IQ-Debate-America/dp/0806515074"]Amazon.com: A Question of Intelligence: The IQ Debate in America: Daniel Seligman: Your Store[/ame]

That book was written 15 years ago. You are like those scientists that give other scientists a bad rep. You read something, it fits your preconceived notions, and then you proceed to discount any new evidence. Just a very casual google search will bring you all kinds of research that has been done since then, many that I have actually shown to you...and yet you still persist in seeing exactly what you want to see. Here's one as an example: [ame=http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-03/sfri-fwm031908.php]Family wealth may explain differences in test scores in school-age children[/ame]

And xsisted1, there is all kinds of genetic research being done so I think you are also somewhat behind the times.

 

[manifold]

Being lectured by Ravi about clinging to preconceived notions!

Now that's fuck'n irony!

 

[Ravi]

Being lectured by Ravi about clinging to preconceived notions!

Now that's fuck'n irony!

I knew you'd laugh, but that doesn't make what I said any less true and I imagine you can at least admit that to yourself.

 

[manifold]

Being lectured by Ravi about clinging to preconceived notions!

Now that's fuck'n irony!

I knew you'd laugh, but that doesn't make what I said any less true and I imagine you can at least admit that to yourself.

fix your link and maybe I'll check it out.

But with racial mixing and all, I suspect reliable data is getter harder rather than easier to come by. Not that I disappove of racial mixing mind you, I'm actually a HUGE proponent.

 

[Valerie]

So you think statistics point to disparities in aptitude which are caused by race? Because they perhaps seem to according to your objective and unemotional analysis? Where are these stats that prove this? That's the pink elephant here.

I don't know what you mean by "caused by race." There are real, observed and statistically significant disparities in how different ethnic groups perform on standardized testing. If it helps you sleep better to ignore that, then so be it.

Do you doubt our educational system has many flaws? Perhaps you think it would be flawless if only it weren't for the stupid inferior races dragging down the curve? I don't see where anyone claimed it was one or the other as you suggest what you think many WANT to believe about throwing money at it? I think there is currently plenty of money already in the system, but that's beside the point.

I think our educational system is certainly flawed. I think we surpassed the point of diminishing returns several billion dollars ago. I think we could spend a fraction of what we spend today to yield essentially the same return. I think we've been trying to "solve" a problem that isn't really a problem by throwing more money at it.

It's just not the kind of problem that can be solved by money alone.

First you demonstrate an understanding of scientific method and then you expect me to believe you don't know what I meant by mentioning CAUSE?

There are real, observed and statistically significant disparities in how different ethnic groups perform on standardized testing.

So???

As with Glockmail's thread about the twins where one is gay and one is not...I ask you, what are you getting at? Are you looking to rationalize discrimination or do you believe in school segregation, or what?

 

[xotoxi]

BTW, I have provided links and books for xotoxi to read which provide the data he claims he's looking for, but he doesn't seem to be interested. He has a certain view on this subject and I don't believe he is willing to change it.

DUDE!!! I'm working!

Just chill, and I'll get a chance to read it later.

 

[Ravi]

Being lectured by Ravi about clinging to preconceived notions!

Now that's fuck'n irony!

I knew you'd laugh, but that doesn't make what I said any less true and I imagine you can at least admit that to yourself.

fix your link and maybe I'll check it out.

But with racial mixing and all, I suspect reliable data is getter harder rather than easier to come by. Not that I disappove of racial mixing mind you, I'm actually a HUGE proponent.

Family wealth may explain differences in test scores in school-age children

Racial mixing has been going on since the country started, but that's a good cop out for you.

I think the burden of proof is on those that make such claims because there is no actual evidence. Tell me the earth is flat...you prove it. Tell me God exists...you prove it. Tell me blacks are stupider than whites...you prove it.

 

[jillian]

Racial mixing has been going on since the country started, but that's a good cop out for you.

I think the burden of proof is on those that make such claims because there is no actual evidence. Tell me the earth is flat...you prove it. Tell me God exists...you prove it. Tell me blacks are stupider than whites...you prove it.

I would think it clear that poverty is the greater problem.

 

[HUGGY]

I knew you'd laugh, but that doesn't make what I said any less true and I imagine you can at least admit that to yourself.

fix your link and maybe I'll check it out.

But with racial mixing and all, I suspect reliable data is getter harder rather than easier to come by. Not that I disappove of racial mixing mind you, I'm actually a HUGE proponent.

Family wealth may explain differences in test scores in school-age children

Racial mixing has been going on since the country started, but that's a good cop out for you.

I think the burden of proof is on those that make such claims because there is no actual evidence. Tell me the earth is flat...you prove it. Tell me God exists...you prove it. Tell me blacks are stupider than whites...you prove it.

"stupider"? Don't you really mean "more stupider"?

 

[Ravi]

fix your link and maybe I'll check it out.

But with racial mixing and all, I suspect reliable data is getter harder rather than easier to come by. Not that I disappove of racial mixing mind you, I'm actually a HUGE proponent.

Family wealth may explain differences in test scores in school-age children

Racial mixing has been going on since the country started, but that's a good cop out for you.

I think the burden of proof is on those that make such claims because there is no actual evidence. Tell me the earth is flat...you prove it. Tell me God exists...you prove it. Tell me blacks are stupider than whites...you prove it.

"stupider"? Don't you really mean "more stupider"?

shhh....I'm trying to get this word accepted by Webster's.

 

[Valerie]

Family wealth may explain differences in test scores in school-age children

Racial mixing has been going on since the country started, but that's a good cop out for you.

I think the burden of proof is on those that make such claims because there is no actual evidence. Tell me the earth is flat...you prove it. Tell me God exists...you prove it. Tell me blacks are stupider than whites...you prove it.

"stupider"? Don't you really mean "more stupider"?

shhh....I'm trying to get this word accepted by Webster's.

Do it for the stupider people!

 

[Valerie]

Racial mixing has been going on since the country started, but that's a good cop out for you.

I think the burden of proof is on those that make such claims because there is no actual evidence. Tell me the earth is flat...you prove it. Tell me God exists...you prove it. Tell me blacks are stupider than whites...you prove it.

I would think it clear that poverty is the greater problem.

Exactly.