Ok, if it's not heredity...

[HUGGY]

Let's assume for a moment that despite SOOOO many obvious physical differences between races that race has nothing to do with anything...

Then why DO we see differences in things like standardized testing, prison population, etc?

Differences? Oh no!

An observation is not proof of causation. Malnourished children will do poorly on tests. Children of poverty tend to end up in prison. Therefore, black people are nothing but stupid criminals? Just look at them!

I don't think so.

It's not that race has nothing to do with anything, it just is what it is. It's probably more like the entire human race needs to overcome the reality of it's racial history and proceed to record some new observations.

I can appreciate that, but still it makes me wonder where your pretty moderate view is in some of the other threads where libs are calling cons racist. As a conservative I want everyone to have an equal chance to achieve whatever they can achieve on their own merit and I get called a racist for being against state sponsored racism like affirmative action.

In my short time on this MB I observe that you are not a willfully ignorant racist. I do think that lableing yourself a conservative that wants "everyone to have an equal chance to achieve whatever they can achieve on their own merit" is naive and puts yourself in a catagory contradictory to your own statements. Cons are liars. Cons are thieves. The leadership of the neo-con movement does not care about the average American.

If I were you I would try to be a more critical thinker. I would aim for truth and reject false retoric. I was once a republican. Dwight Eisenhower was the president. Since then the party has been stolen by some very bad people. These people will do anything and say anything to keep thier grip on power. Take one example Karl Rove. Have you examined his role in the republican party? If you approve of that man's activities then you are dishonest and need to stop blathering about equal chances and so on. If you get how he has helped steal elections and done everything in his power to subvert the rule of law and the constitution then you should try to be more intelectually honest and re-examine what you lable yourself.

 

[Amanda]

Education, huh? Well you know what they say about leading horses to water. Why do so many scholarships aimed at minority students go unclaimed? If people were clamoring to improve themselves through education no scholarships should ever go unclaimed.

Link?

A link to a conversation I had with a college admissions councilor? How would I do that? THo, I wouldn't have minded clicking on him. LOL.

So much to respond to in this thread but I'm swamped at work today, but I will be back to it later, oh yes.

 

[Valerie]

At best I would say race is a circumstantial factor...

You can say whatever you like, but it doesn't make it true. No matter how badly you WANT it to be true.

You know, statistics show that African Americans make up much greater percentage of the NBA than they do the general population. But this is merely a correlation, it doesn't prove causation. At best, I would say race is merely a circumstantial factor.

Those individuals had a superior capacity to play that sport for many reasons. Their physicality is hereditary and absolutely due to their race. So how do you explain Larry Bird?

Then why DO we see differences in things like standardized testing, prison population, etc?

Do you think those who do poorly on standardized tests, who happen to be black, do so BECAUSE they are black? Why would some white kids also fail?

I think the answer to the OP is in the crossover of these two examples. Several other people have made good points here about education and environment. Race is a complex issue that needs to be tackled honestly. Make your charts and your bell curves and make jokes about observations, it's all part of the evolution.

I don't know why you think I "so badly WANT it to be true"? I'm just making an observation of my own. I wonder why you so badly WANT to prove the opposite?

 

[xsited1]

Still not getting your point. Are you saying Africans, Indians, and the Chinese have all shrunken their gene pool detrimentally? If so, what does that have to do with Hispanic population projections?

You said, "usually it is overbreeding that causes problems because you end up shrinking the gene pool." That's what is happening in parts of Africa, India, China and in parts of the US. You already mentioned West Virgina in the United States. The data says that is also happening in the Hispanic community.

I don't have time to read the entire article. Please quote the portion that says Hispanics are engaging in overbreeding. I'm not talking about simply having babies, btw, I'm talking about people only breeding with their near relatives.

I wouldn't call it overbreeding, but they certainly have a much larger family size:

http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/hh-fam/cps2004/tabAVG1.csv

 

[Renee]

I want everyone to have an equal chance to achieve whatever they can achieve on their own merit and I get called a racist for being against state sponsored racism like affirmative action. >>

YOu are obviously young and aren't aware that we have always had affirmative action. What do you think it was when only white males had the advantages? WOmen and blacks were systematically blocked from competing so those white males didn't have to compete with more than 50% of the population? Do you think all those Harvard grads of years ago weren't worthy of their degrees? AA is not new, it is just that different groups are getting the advantages they were denied. As a women you take for granted entrance to med and law schools............thanks to AA you can equally apply

 

[manifold]

At best I would say race is a circumstantial factor...

You can say whatever you like, but it doesn't make it true. No matter how badly you WANT it to be true.

You know, statistics show that African Americans make up much greater percentage of the NBA than they do the general population. But this is merely a correlation, it doesn't prove causation. At best, I would say race is merely a circumstantial factor.

Those individuals had a superior capacity to play that sport for many reasons. Their physicality is hereditary and absolutely due to their race. So how do you explain Larry Bird?

Why do I need to explain one data point? That seems pretty silly in a statistical discussion don't you think? Well, just in case you don't fully understand, the purpose of statistical analysis is to identify overall trends. It is not to explain single data points.

 

[manifold]

I don't know why you think I "so badly WANT it to be true"? I'm just making an observation of my own. I wonder why you so badly WANT to prove the opposite?

Are you saying that you don't want it to be true? That you'd prefer if your unsupported thesis was in fact false? That would indeed surprise me.

I don't want to prove anything badly. I'm just intrepretting the data objectively and without emotion.

The bottom line for me is that I think dismissing the big pink elephant does far more harm than good. Perhaps the statistical disparities in standardized testing are merely just as they seem, disparities in basic aptitude and not, as many WANT to believe, indicative of major flaws in our educational system. Maybe there really isn't a problem that we need to throw more tax money at. Have you ever considered that?

 

[Valerie]

You can say whatever you like, but it doesn't make it true. No matter how badly you WANT it to be true.

You know, statistics show that African Americans make up much greater percentage of the NBA than they do the general population. But this is merely a correlation, it doesn't prove causation. At best, I would say race is merely a circumstantial factor.

Those individuals had a superior capacity to play that sport for many reasons. Their physicality is hereditary and absolutely due to their race. So how do you explain Larry Bird?

Why do I need to explain one data point? That seems pretty silly in a statistical discussion don't you think? Well, just in case you don't fully understand, the purpose of statistical analysis is to identify overall trends. It is not to explain single data points.

It was a rhetorical question. Just that it exists is enough to open up the point I was trying to make. Statistical analysis to identify trends is wonderful, but sometimes we tend to miss the forest for the trees.

 

[manu1959]

how do you educate people that don't want to be educated....

school is a waste of time to many.....

 

[manifold]

Statistical analysis to identify trends is wonderful, but sometimes we tend to miss the forest for the trees.

I couldn't agree more. I think we've been overlooking the forest with respect to our educational system for quite some time now.

 

[Ravi]

You said, "usually it is overbreeding that causes problems because you end up shrinking the gene pool." That's what is happening in parts of Africa, India, China and in parts of the US. You already mentioned West Virgina in the United States. The data says that is also happening in the Hispanic community.

I don't have time to read the entire article. Please quote the portion that says Hispanics are engaging in overbreeding. I'm not talking about simply having babies, btw, I'm talking about people only breeding with their near relatives.

I wouldn't call it overbreeding, but they certainly have a much larger family size:

http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/hh-fam/cps2004/tabAVG1.csv

So you didn't actually have a point.

 

[xotoxi]

Are there genetic differences between the races?

Maybe not: Biological differences among races do not exist, WU research shows

If there are genetic differences, the differences are so miniscule, that it is non-applicable.

Any differences that exist between races is purely sociological.

And I could post many other articles that dispute the one you posted. In the end, you would be able to post many more articles supporting your view because this subject is considered 'taboo' and even racist. (BTW, the WU research article is over 10 years old, so it would be considered out of date.)

You might find this book interesting. It's a quick read:

Intelligence: A Very Short Introduction
Ian J. Deary

And Terral could post many articles that dispute the events of 9/11...

When it comes down to it, you can't show evidence that differences in intelligence between races can be attributed to difference in genes, just as you can't show a gene that signals for homosexuality.

 

[manifold]

Are there genetic differences between the races?

Maybe not: Biological differences among races do not exist, WU research shows

If there are genetic differences, the differences are so miniscule, that it is non-applicable.

Any differences that exist between races is purely sociological.

And I could post many other articles that dispute the one you posted. In the end, you would be able to post many more articles supporting your view because this subject is considered 'taboo' and even racist. (BTW, the WU research article is over 10 years old, so it would be considered out of date.)

You might find this book interesting. It's a quick read:

Intelligence: A Very Short Introduction
Ian J. Deary

And Terral could post many articles that dispute the events of 9/11...

When it comes down to it, you can't show evidence that differences in intelligence between races can be attributed to difference in genes, just as you can't show a gene that signals for homosexuality.

Actually, that's not true. The stats ARE the evidence. It's just that they don't PROVE anything conclusively. And like I said earlier, they certainly don't disprove it either. But anyone with an intellectually honest, open mind can clearly see which side the stats favor.

 

[Ravi]

Statistical analysis to identify trends is wonderful, but sometimes we tend to miss the forest for the trees.

I couldn't agree more. I think we've been overlooking the forest with respect to our educational system for quite some time now.

What forest and what elephant?

 

[xotoxi]

And Terral could post many articles that dispute the events of 9/11...

When it comes down to it, you can't show evidence that differences in intelligence between races can be attributed to difference in genes, just as you can't show a gene that signals for homosexuality.

Actually, that's not true. The stats ARE the evidence. It's just that they don't PROVE anything conclusively. And like I said earlier, they certainly don't disprove it either. But anyone with an intellectually honest, open mind can clearly see which side the stats favor.

Okay. Show me the stats that correlate specific genomic differences between whites and blacks to their differences in SAT scores and imprisonment rates.

 

[manifold]

Sorry Ravi,

I'm just not in the mood to indulge your playing stupid game today. They are both metaphors and you know exactly to what they refer.

 

[Ravi]

Sorry Ravi,

I'm just not in the mood to indulge your playing stupid game today. They are both metaphors and you know exactly to what they refer.

No, I don't know what you are talking about though I realize you are using metaphors. All I can gather from your comments is that it doesn't really matter either way.

btw, I've never once played stupid. I am often stupid without trying.

But whatever, answer xotoxi's question instead.

 

[xsited1]

Are there genetic differences between the races?

Maybe not: Biological differences among races do not exist, WU research shows

If there are genetic differences, the differences are so miniscule, that it is non-applicable.

Any differences that exist between races is purely sociological.

And I could post many other articles that dispute the one you posted. In the end, you would be able to post many more articles supporting your view because this subject is considered 'taboo' and even racist. (BTW, the WU research article is over 10 years old, so it would be considered out of date.)

You might find this book interesting. It's a quick read:

Intelligence: A Very Short Introduction
Ian J. Deary

And Terral could post many articles that dispute the events of 9/11...

When it comes down to it, you can't show evidence that differences in intelligence between races can be attributed to difference in genes, just as you can't show a gene that signals for homosexuality.

Terral? What does he have to do with this?

Yes, you can show evidence. The evidence is in the data. Just read the book I presented in the post. And as far as homosexuality goes, Scientists are beginning to make the connection between a physical basis and homosexual behavior.

Why are you choosing one view over the other when the data is readily available?

 

[manifold]

And Terral could post many articles that dispute the events of 9/11...

When it comes down to it, you can't show evidence that differences in intelligence between races can be attributed to difference in genes, just as you can't show a gene that signals for homosexuality.

Actually, that's not true. The stats ARE the evidence. It's just that they don't PROVE anything conclusively. And like I said earlier, they certainly don't disprove it either. But anyone with an intellectually honest, open mind can clearly see which side the stats favor.

Okay. Show me the stats that correlate specific genomic differences between whites and blacks to their differences in SAT scores and imprisonment rates.

There isn't any that I'm aware of. But I also don't recall making any claim regarding specific genomic differences. I'm merely referring to the statistical disparities on standardized testing between peoples of different ethnic origins.

 

[xsited1]

Actually, that's not true. The stats ARE the evidence. It's just that they don't PROVE anything conclusively. And like I said earlier, they certainly don't disprove it either. But anyone with an intellectually honest, open mind can clearly see which side the stats favor.

Okay. Show me the stats that correlate specific genomic differences between whites and blacks to their differences in SAT scores and imprisonment rates.

There isn't any that I'm aware of. But I also don't recall making any claim regarding specific genomic differences. I'm merely referring to the statistical disparities on standardized testing between peoples of different ethnic origins.

The data actually exists, but most people either don't want to talk about it or can't. Here's a great editorial from a few years back that discusses the problems that people who study this are facing today:

According to an editorial in the British paper The Independent, a fear of offending members of historically stigmatized racial groups has prevented us from confronting the evidence that tiny genetic variations do actually account for real physical and behavioral differences. "We have gone from one kind of ignorance and prejudice to another without walking the road of good sense," wrote the anonymous commentator. "There are important biological differences that distinguish groups and individuals within groups. Vastly more African American men have prostate cancer than do white men. British Asians have significantly higher rates of heart disease...If gene research is only allowed among white groups, important breakthroughs will only be available to them, too."

Not to explore genetic differences and genes responsible for certain diseases that afflict different ethnic grips, is, as London Times journalist Anjana Ahuja writes, "to leave ethnic groups in the grip of disease for the sake of political correctness."

Entine, author of Taboo: Why Black Athletes Dominate Sports and Why We Are Afraid to Talk About It, makes a similar point. "Although we share a common humanity, we are different in critical ways such as our genetic susceptibility to diseases," he says. "For instance, blacks are genetically predisposed to contracting colo-rectal cancer; Eurasian whites are genetically prone to multiple sclerosis -- and Asians are by and large victims of neither. The problem with Clinton's pandering to political correctness is that it threatens confidence in the life-saving aspects of the genetic revolution."

While genetic research may reveal more variation within the human family than many may wish to acknowledge, it can also demonstrate specific genetic advantages that certain populations may have, possibly yielding discoveries that could benefit humankind as a whole. Yet, scholars argue, many people seem more comfortable with the notion of genetically-determined diseases than they are with the idea that particular groups may also possess specific genetic gifts.

...

trinicenter.com - Studying Genetic Differences in Races