Oil plunging!! Are solar and wind dead?

skookerasbil

Platinum Member
Aug 6, 2009
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Not the middle of nowhere
Renewables...........already growing at a snails pace BEFORE the oil price plunge are going to be taking it BIG TIME as oil now projected to drop to $40/bar.

This story, from the Independent, paints a grim picture for green energy >>

New era of cheap oil will destroy green revolution - Environment - The Independent

Of course, the AGW diaper doper babies will call BS......but the fact is, world economies will go with the cheapest form of energy available because thats the way it works and these people prefer to get elected again......they could care less about what the "science" is saying!!!


Now......I will admit, when I saw this story, I damn near laughed so hard, my nut sack nearly fell off!!!! This is the kind of stuf that makes the heads of the AGW religion EXPLODE......so dont be surprised to see alot of misery, anger, name calling and mental case statements from these people. Of course, we always see them miserable, but now they are really going to have explosive bowel movements over this!!!:eusa_dance::eusa_dance::2up:



:9::9::9::9::9::9::9:
 
It would be nice if solar could be economically viable over more of America, but the technology just hasn't advanced that far yet.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/24/b...rt-to-win-on-price-vs-conventional-fuels.html

In Texas, Austin Energy signed a deal this spring for 20 years of output from a solar farm at less than 5 cents a kilowatt-hour. In September, the Grand River Dam Authority in Oklahoma announced its approval of a new agreement to buy power from a new wind farm expected to be completed next year. Grand River estimated the deal would save its customers roughly $50 million from the project.

And, also in Oklahoma, American Electric Power ended up tripling the amount of wind power it had originally sought after seeing how low the bids came in last year.

“Wind was on sale — it was a Blue Light Special,” said Jay Godfrey, managing director of renewable energy for the company. He noted that Oklahoma, unlike many states, did not require utilities to buy power from renewable sources.

“We were doing it because it made sense for our ratepayers,” he said.

According to a study by the investment banking firm Lazard, the cost of utility-scale solar energy is as low as 5.6 cents a kilowatt-hour, and wind is as low as 1.4 cents. In comparison, natural gas comes at 6.1 cents a kilowatt-hour on the low end and coal at 6.6 cents. Without subsidies, the firm’s analysis shows, solar costs about 7.2 cents a kilowatt-hour at the low end, with wind at 3.7 cents.

Wind about half the cost of dirty coal. Solar near parity with dirty coal, and the price of solar is dropping even as we post. So the cost of electricity will actually come down as we put more solar and wind into place. And even at $2.50 a gallon, gas and diesel are still far more expensive to run an auto on than electricity.

Of course, you might point out that both are intermittant.
 
Oncor proposes giant leap for grid batteries Dallas Morning News

Oncor, which runs Texas’ largest power line network, is willing to bet battery technology is ready for wide-scale deployment across the grid.

In a move that stands to radically shift the dynamics of the industry, Oncor is set to announce Monday that it is prepared to invest more than $2 billion to store electricity in thousands of batteries across North and West Texas beginning in 2018.

Utility-scale batteries have been a holy grail within the energy sector for years. With enough storage space, surplus electricity can be generated at night, when plants usually sit idle, to be used the next day, when demand is highest. Power outages would become less frequent. Wind and solar power, susceptible to weather conditions, could be built on a larger scale. The only problem has been that the price of batteries has been too high to make economic sense. But if they’re purchased on a large enough scale, that won’t be the case for long, said Oncor CEO Bob Shapard.

“Everyone assumed the price point was five to six years out. We’re getting indications from everyone we’ve talked to they can get us to that price by 2018,” he said in an interview Wednesday.

The Dallas-based transmission company is proposing the installation of 5,000 megawatts of batteries not just in its service area but across Texas’ entire grid. That is the equivalent of four nuclear power plants on a grid with a capacity of about 81,000 megawatts.

Ranging from refrigerator- to dumpster-size, the batteries would be installed behind shopping centers and in neighborhoods. Statewide, Oncor estimates a total price tag of $5.2 billion. A study commissioned by Oncor with the Brattle Group, a Massachusetts consulting firm that provides power market analysis for state regulators, says the project would not raise bills. Revenue from rental of storage space on the batteries, along with a decrease in power prices and transmission costs, should actually decrease the average Texas residential power bill 34 cents to $179.66 a month, the report said.

My, my, both renewables and grid scale batteries reduce the price of electricity for the consumer and the utility. Now, when the inevitable battery with 4 times the capacity of todays battery, at a price that is a small fraction of todays batteries, who will want to buy gasoline or diesel?
 
Oil plunging!! Are solar and wind dead?

Nope! Your brain is dead!

And that fact is inevitably the answer to all of your very retarded 'questions'.

Falling Oil Prices Will Not Bother Solar



Only the k00ks think that though...........because they don't understand how the global economy works.

And these meatheads offer only conjecture and their opinions..........but skooks pwns them with links.....lots of 'em.


Merkel Embraces Coal as Rookie Lawmaker Makes Mark on Policy - Bloomberg

Germany Embraces Natural Gas

Coal Makes a Comeback as Germany Ditches Green Pinnacle Digest

Europe Embraces Shale Gas POWER Magazine

King Coal Leaves America for Europe - The American Interest

Merkel Embraces Coal as Rookie Lawmaker Makes Mark on Policy - Businessweek


Its actually quite elementary........the green energy revolution fizzled out as Europeans and particularly Germans started seeing their electricity rates skyrocket. Merkel was forced to deal with the coalition government or get her ass booted. THATS how it works in the real world assholes............costs matter. Maybe not to the uber-nutty-ass AGW religion..........but they matter to the rest of the universe. And will even if they produce 10 billion scientists who say the world is warming. They missed a memo somewhere along the way..........that costs matter to modern economies!!!:eusa_dance::eusa_dance::eusa_dance::eusa_dance::eusa_dance::eusa_dance::fu:


Accordingly.................you lOse!!!:blahblah::boobies::boobies::boobies:
 
Oil plunging!! Are solar and wind dead?

Nope! Your brain is dead!

And that fact is inevitably the answer to all of your very retarded 'questions'.

Falling Oil Prices Will Not Bother Solar
Only the k00ks think that though...........because they don't understand how the global economy works. And these meatheads offer only conjecture and their opinions..........but skooks pwns them with links.....lots of 'em.
Merkel Embraces Coal as Rookie Lawmaker Makes Mark on Policy - Bloomberg
Germany Embraces Natural Gas
Coal Makes a Comeback as Germany Ditches Green Pinnacle Digest
Europe Embraces Shale Gas POWER Magazine
King Coal Leaves America for Europe - The American Interest
Merkel Embraces Coal as Rookie Lawmaker Makes Mark on Policy - Businessweek
Its actually quite elementary........the green energy revolution fizzled out as Europeans and particularly Germans started seeing their electricity rates skyrocket. Merkel was forced to deal with the coalition government or get her ass booted. THATS how it works in the real world assholes............costs matter. Maybe not to the uber-nutty-ass AGW religion..........but they matter to the rest of the universe. And will even if they produce 10 billion scientists who say the world is warming. They missed a memo somewhere along the way..........that costs matter to modern economies!!! Accordingly.................you lOse!

More denier cult insanity from the troll Kookles.

In reality....

Germany Sets New Record, Generating 74 Percent Of Power Needs From Renewable Energy
ClimateProgress
BY KILEY KROH
MAY 13, 2014
(excerpts)
On Sunday, Germany’s impressive streak of renewable energy milestones continued, with renewable energy generation surging to a record portion — nearly 75 percent — of the country’s overall electricity demand by midday. With wind and solar in particular filling such a huge portion of the country’s power demand, electricity prices actually dipped into the negative for much of the afternoon, according to Renewables International.

In the first quarter of 2014, renewable energy sources met a record 27 percent of the country’s electricity demand, thanks to additional installations and favorable weather. “Renewable generators produced 40.2 billion kilowatt-hours of electricity, up from 35.7 billion kilowatt-hours in the same period last year,” Bloomberg reported. Much of the country’s renewable energy growth has occurred in the past decade and, as a point of comparison, Germany’s 27 percent is double the approximately 13 percent of U.S. electricity supply powered by renewables as of November 2013.

Observers say the records will keep coming as Germany continues its Energiewende, or energy transformation, which aims to power the country almost entirely on renewable sources by 2050.

Once again, it was demonstrated that a modern electricity system such as the German one can already accept large penetration rates of variable but predictable renewable energy sources such as wind and solar PV power,” said Bernard Chabot, a renewable energy consultant based in France, via email. “In fact there are no technical and economic obstacles to go first to 20 percent of annual electricity demand penetration rate from a combination of those two technologies, then 50 percent and beyond by combining them with other renewables and energy efficiency measures and some progressive storage solutions at a modest level.

A recent analysis by the consulting firm Eclareon found that solar power has reached grid parity in Germany, meaning once all of the costs are accounted for, the price of commercial solar power is now equal to retail electricity rates.

And wind power reached record output levels last year — producing a massive 25.2 GW and accounting for 39 percent of the electricity supply on a single day in December.

The unprecedented growth of solar PV in particular has been fueled in large part by policies that incentivize clean energy. Germany’s simple feed-in tariff (FIT) policy, which pays renewable energy producers a set amount for the electricity they produce under long-term contracts, has driven the solar power boom. But as installations continued to outpace government targets, Germany announced last year that it would begin scaling back its feed-in tariff.

The FIT is financed by a surcharge paid by utility customers, but a major part of the problem stems from the fact that industry is largely exempt from the renewables surcharge — meaning the burden falls on households. Rather than adjust the industry exemption, the government instead proposed a “PV self-consumption charge” on new photovoltaic systems, something Germany’s Solar Industry Association recently announced it plans to challenge in court.

The equity of the renewables surcharge isn’t the only criticism of Germany’s power transformation. Along with cutting out fossil fuel-generated energy to a large extent, the transition to renewables includes completely phasing out nuclear power. These goals are only achievable in combination with greatly reduced energy demand. Instead, coal imports are increasing in order to meet the country’s baseload power demands. And retail electricity rates are high and rising, putting pressure on lower income individuals in particular.

But many of the criticisms are largely overblown, according to Amory Lovins of the Rocky Mountain Institute. The modest uptick in coal-fired generation was substituting for pricier natural gas, not representative of a return to coal as it’s often mischaracterized. In fact, last December, as renewable energy production continued to grow and energy demand shrank, Germany’s largest utility chose not to renew two long-term contracts for coal-fired power.

And while much is made of rising industrial electricity prices, Lovins points out that in fact, “giant German firms enjoy Germany’s low and falling wholesale electricity prices, getting the benefit of renewables’ near-zero operating cost but exempted from paying for them.

And as for the impact on the consumer, “the FIT surcharge raised households’ retail price of electricity seven percent but renewables lowered big industries’ wholesale price 18 percent. As long-term contracts expire, the past few years’ sharply lower wholesale prices could finally reach retail customers and start sending households’ total electricity prices back down.

What’s more, in Germany you have the option of earning back your payments, and far more, by investing as little as $600 in renewable energy yourself,” Lovins writes. “Citizens, cooperatives, and communities own more than half of German renewable capacity, vs. two percent in the U.S.

Challenges aside, Energiewende — rooted in the acknowledgement that a fossil fuel-based energy system is not sustainable — is remarkable for its scope and its widespread support, particularly in a heavily industrialized country like Germany. “Don’t forget what Germany is doing right now. It’s changing its power supply,” Paul Hockenos, a Berlin-based energy expert and journalist, told Voice of America earlier this year. “The last time when an energy supply was changed was the industrial revolution; this is something that has never been done before.
 
Oil plunging!! Are solar and wind dead?

Nope! Your brain is dead!

And that fact is inevitably the answer to all of your very retarded 'questions'.

Falling Oil Prices Will Not Bother Solar
Only the k00ks think that though...........because they don't understand how the global economy works. And these meatheads offer only conjecture and their opinions..........but skooks pwns them with links.....lots of 'em.
Merkel Embraces Coal as Rookie Lawmaker Makes Mark on Policy - Bloomberg
Germany Embraces Natural Gas
Coal Makes a Comeback as Germany Ditches Green Pinnacle Digest
Europe Embraces Shale Gas POWER Magazine
King Coal Leaves America for Europe - The American Interest
Merkel Embraces Coal as Rookie Lawmaker Makes Mark on Policy - Businessweek
Its actually quite elementary........the green energy revolution fizzled out as Europeans and particularly Germans started seeing their electricity rates skyrocket. Merkel was forced to deal with the coalition government or get her ass booted. THATS how it works in the real world assholes............costs matter. Maybe not to the uber-nutty-ass AGW religion..........but they matter to the rest of the universe. And will even if they produce 10 billion scientists who say the world is warming. They missed a memo somewhere along the way..........that costs matter to modern economies!!! Accordingly.................you lOse!

More denier cult insanity from the troll Kookles.

In reality....

Germany Sets New Record, Generating 74 Percent Of Power Needs From Renewable Energy
ClimateProgress
BY KILEY KROH
MAY 13, 2014
(excerpts)
On Sunday, Germany’s impressive streak of renewable energy milestones continued, with renewable energy generation surging to a record portion — nearly 75 percent — of the country’s overall electricity demand by midday. With wind and solar in particular filling such a huge portion of the country’s power demand, electricity prices actually dipped into the negative for much of the afternoon, according to Renewables International.

In the first quarter of 2014, renewable energy sources met a record 27 percent of the country’s electricity demand, thanks to additional installations and favorable weather. “Renewable generators produced 40.2 billion kilowatt-hours of electricity, up from 35.7 billion kilowatt-hours in the same period last year,” Bloomberg reported. Much of the country’s renewable energy growth has occurred in the past decade and, as a point of comparison, Germany’s 27 percent is double the approximately 13 percent of U.S. electricity supply powered by renewables as of November 2013.

Observers say the records will keep coming as Germany continues its Energiewende, or energy transformation, which aims to power the country almost entirely on renewable sources by 2050.

Once again, it was demonstrated that a modern electricity system such as the German one can already accept large penetration rates of variable but predictable renewable energy sources such as wind and solar PV power,” said Bernard Chabot, a renewable energy consultant based in France, via email. “In fact there are no technical and economic obstacles to go first to 20 percent of annual electricity demand penetration rate from a combination of those two technologies, then 50 percent and beyond by combining them with other renewables and energy efficiency measures and some progressive storage solutions at a modest level.

A recent analysis by the consulting firm Eclareon found that solar power has reached grid parity in Germany, meaning once all of the costs are accounted for, the price of commercial solar power is now equal to retail electricity rates.

And wind power reached record output levels last year — producing a massive 25.2 GW and accounting for 39 percent of the electricity supply on a single day in December.

The unprecedented growth of solar PV in particular has been fueled in large part by policies that incentivize clean energy. Germany’s simple feed-in tariff (FIT) policy, which pays renewable energy producers a set amount for the electricity they produce under long-term contracts, has driven the solar power boom. But as installations continued to outpace government targets, Germany announced last year that it would begin scaling back its feed-in tariff.

The FIT is financed by a surcharge paid by utility customers, but a major part of the problem stems from the fact that industry is largely exempt from the renewables surcharge — meaning the burden falls on households. Rather than adjust the industry exemption, the government instead proposed a “PV self-consumption charge” on new photovoltaic systems, something Germany’s Solar Industry Association recently announced it plans to challenge in court.

The equity of the renewables surcharge isn’t the only criticism of Germany’s power transformation. Along with cutting out fossil fuel-generated energy to a large extent, the transition to renewables includes completely phasing out nuclear power. These goals are only achievable in combination with greatly reduced energy demand. Instead, coal imports are increasing in order to meet the country’s baseload power demands. And retail electricity rates are high and rising, putting pressure on lower income individuals in particular.

But many of the criticisms are largely overblown, according to Amory Lovins of the Rocky Mountain Institute. The modest uptick in coal-fired generation was substituting for pricier natural gas, not representative of a return to coal as it’s often mischaracterized. In fact, last December, as renewable energy production continued to grow and energy demand shrank, Germany’s largest utility chose not to renew two long-term contracts for coal-fired power.

And while much is made of rising industrial electricity prices, Lovins points out that in fact, “giant German firms enjoy Germany’s low and falling wholesale electricity prices, getting the benefit of renewables’ near-zero operating cost but exempted from paying for them.

And as for the impact on the consumer, “the FIT surcharge raised households’ retail price of electricity seven percent but renewables lowered big industries’ wholesale price 18 percent. As long-term contracts expire, the past few years’ sharply lower wholesale prices could finally reach retail customers and start sending households’ total electricity prices back down.

What’s more, in Germany you have the option of earning back your payments, and far more, by investing as little as $600 in renewable energy yourself,” Lovins writes. “Citizens, cooperatives, and communities own more than half of German renewable capacity, vs. two percent in the U.S.

Challenges aside, Energiewende — rooted in the acknowledgement that a fossil fuel-based energy system is not sustainable — is remarkable for its scope and its widespread support, particularly in a heavily industrialized country like Germany. “Don’t forget what Germany is doing right now. It’s changing its power supply,” Paul Hockenos, a Berlin-based energy expert and journalist, told Voice of America earlier this year. “The last time when an energy supply was changed was the industrial revolution; this is something that has never been done before.





dummy didn't even read his own material:banana::banana::boobies::boobies::boobies::boobies::boobies::boobies::boobies::boobies::boobies:


"Instead, coal imports are increasing in order to meet the country’s baseload power demands. And retail electricity rates are high and rising, putting pressure on lower income individuals in particular"






Typical progressive fraudulent presentation.....read the above bozo post by Rolling Thunder.....note the frequency of terms like "low" and "falling" and "increasing" and rising" and particularly, "modest" as referred to coal. This is the way progressives roll......

Meanwhile, here are the facts of energy production in Germany......and there are a bunch of links ( operative term being "bunch".....post #8 ) which clearly display Germany becoming more dependent upon fossil fuels so that they can compete in the worlds economy. In 2014, you cant compete using renewables due to costs being astronomical............duh.




The basics of German energy
Germany is a rather typical modernised country. It uses oil mostly for transport, coal mostly for generating electricity and natural gas mostly for heating and electricity.

Last year, Germany's total energy consumption was equivalent to 312 million tonnes of oil, generally written as tonnes of oil equivalent (toe). In power terms this is roughly 430 GW. And of this the energy mix was as follows: Oil was 35.8%, natural gas 21.7%, coal 25.4%, nuclear energy 7.2%, hydro-electricity 1.5% and non-hydro renewables 8.3%



Germany and Renewables Market Changes The Energy Collective
 
Last edited:
http://awea.files.cms-plus.com/FileDownloads/pdfs/texas.pdf

Wind Projects
• Installed wind capacity: 12,976 MW
• State rank for installed wind capacity: 1st
• Number of wind turbines: 7,997
• State rank for number of wind turbines: 2nd
• Wind projects online: 121
• Wind capacity under construction: 7605 MW
Current Wind Generation
In 2013, wind energy provided 8.3% of all in-state electricity production.
• Equivalent number of homes powered by wind: 3,315,000
Wind Generation Potential
Wind power is capable of meeting more than eighteen times the state’s current electricity
needs.
• Land based wind potential at 80 meters (m) hub height: 1,901,530 MW (source:
National Renewable Energy Laboratory)

13 gw online, another 8 gw under construction. Looks like Texas likes wind.
 
http://awea.files.cms-plus.com/FileDownloads/pdfs/texas.pdf

Wind Projects
• Installed wind capacity: 12,976 MW
• State rank for installed wind capacity: 1st
• Number of wind turbines: 7,997
• State rank for number of wind turbines: 2nd
• Wind projects online: 121
• Wind capacity under construction: 7605 MW
Current Wind Generation
In 2013, wind energy provided 8.3% of all in-state electricity production.
• Equivalent number of homes powered by wind: 3,315,000
Wind Generation Potential
Wind power is capable of meeting more than eighteen times the state’s current electricity
needs.
• Land based wind potential at 80 meters (m) hub height: 1,901,530 MW (source:
National Renewable Energy Laboratory)

13 gw online, another 8 gw under construction. Looks like Texas likes wind.
all of that and it is only 8.3% of the grid. So other hmmmmmmmmm
 
Post #6, the part that says 3.7 cents a kilowatt as opposed to 6.6 cents a kilowatt from dirty coal. Add the grid scale batteries to that equation, and that number of 8.3% of the grid is going to change rapidly. Rapidly enough that they will be shutting down coal plants that have life still in them as a matter of economics.
 
Oncor proposes giant leap for grid batteries Dallas Morning News

Oncor, which runs Texas’ largest power line network, is willing to bet battery technology is ready for wide-scale deployment across the grid.

In a move that stands to radically shift the dynamics of the industry, Oncor is set to announce Monday that it is prepared to invest more than $2 billion to store electricity in thousands of batteries across North and West Texas beginning in 2018.

Utility-scale batteries have been a holy grail within the energy sector for years. With enough storage space, surplus electricity can be generated at night, when plants usually sit idle, to be used the next day, when demand is highest. Power outages would become less frequent. Wind and solar power, susceptible to weather conditions, could be built on a larger scale. The only problem has been that the price of batteries has been too high to make economic sense. But if they’re purchased on a large enough scale, that won’t be the case for long, said Oncor CEO Bob Shapard.

“Everyone assumed the price point was five to six years out. We’re getting indications from everyone we’ve talked to they can get us to that price by 2018,” he said in an interview Wednesday.

The Dallas-based transmission company is proposing the installation of 5,000 megawatts of batteries not just in its service area but across Texas’ entire grid. That is the equivalent of four nuclear power plants on a grid with a capacity of about 81,000 megawatts.

Ranging from refrigerator- to dumpster-size, the batteries would be installed behind shopping centers and in neighborhoods. Statewide, Oncor estimates a total price tag of $5.2 billion. A study commissioned by Oncor with the Brattle Group, a Massachusetts consulting firm that provides power market analysis for state regulators, says the project would not raise bills. Revenue from rental of storage space on the batteries, along with a decrease in power prices and transmission costs, should actually decrease the average Texas residential power bill 34 cents to $179.66 a month, the report said.

My, my, both renewables and grid scale batteries reduce the price of electricity for the consumer and the utility. Now, when the inevitable battery with 4 times the capacity of todays battery, at a price that is a small fraction of todays batteries, who will want to buy gasoline or diesel?

I have been reading these types of "happy stories" for about 40 years now. Not just with energy, but with medicine. The cure for diabetes was "just around the corner" 40 years ago.

I'm a realist. This is what I believe. I believe that when power companies all start to make a wholesale change to renewables that they will finally be competitive.

And until that time, all these "happy stories" are simply pie in the sky bullshit.

Reality is a great teacher. Look around and learn, don't let some article sway you to believe in something that probably won't happen.

Mark
 
Post #6, the part that says 3.7 cents a kilowatt as opposed to 6.6 cents a kilowatt from dirty coal. Add the grid scale batteries to that equation, and that number of 8.3% of the grid is going to change rapidly. Rapidly enough that they will be shutting down coal plants that have life still in them as a matter of economics.
8.3%, talk to me when it is 25% or something around a quarter of the grid. Did yo see the map? Where are they going to add the additional farms?
 
Oncor proposes giant leap for grid batteries Dallas Morning News

Oncor, which runs Texas’ largest power line network, is willing to bet battery technology is ready for wide-scale deployment across the grid.

In a move that stands to radically shift the dynamics of the industry, Oncor is set to announce Monday that it is prepared to invest more than $2 billion to store electricity in thousands of batteries across North and West Texas beginning in 2018.

Utility-scale batteries have been a holy grail within the energy sector for years. With enough storage space, surplus electricity can be generated at night, when plants usually sit idle, to be used the next day, when demand is highest. Power outages would become less frequent. Wind and solar power, susceptible to weather conditions, could be built on a larger scale. The only problem has been that the price of batteries has been too high to make economic sense. But if they’re purchased on a large enough scale, that won’t be the case for long, said Oncor CEO Bob Shapard.

“Everyone assumed the price point was five to six years out. We’re getting indications from everyone we’ve talked to they can get us to that price by 2018,” he said in an interview Wednesday.

The Dallas-based transmission company is proposing the installation of 5,000 megawatts of batteries not just in its service area but across Texas’ entire grid. That is the equivalent of four nuclear power plants on a grid with a capacity of about 81,000 megawatts.

Ranging from refrigerator- to dumpster-size, the batteries would be installed behind shopping centers and in neighborhoods. Statewide, Oncor estimates a total price tag of $5.2 billion. A study commissioned by Oncor with the Brattle Group, a Massachusetts consulting firm that provides power market analysis for state regulators, says the project would not raise bills. Revenue from rental of storage space on the batteries, along with a decrease in power prices and transmission costs, should actually decrease the average Texas residential power bill 34 cents to $179.66 a month, the report said.

My, my, both renewables and grid scale batteries reduce the price of electricity for the consumer and the utility. Now, when the inevitable battery with 4 times the capacity of todays battery, at a price that is a small fraction of todays batteries, who will want to buy gasoline or diesel?

I have been reading these types of "happy stories" for about 40 years now. Not just with energy, but with medicine. The cure for diabetes was "just around the corner" 40 years ago.

I'm a realist. This is what I believe. I believe that when power companies all start to make a wholesale change to renewables that they will finally be competitive.

And until that time, all these "happy stories" are simply pie in the sky bullshit.

Reality is a great teacher. Look around and learn, don't let some article sway you to believe in something that probably won't happen.

Mark
I see. So you don't think that Oncor will do what they state. Well, by 2020, we will see. Within my lifetime, I have seen big areas of Eastern Oregon get electricity and paved roads. I have seen phones go from a luxury, that cost a lot to use, and a fortune to use across state and national boundries, the the present every present cell phones with which you can contact anyone in the world for one set fee.

And then there is the means that we are comminucating on. Not even dreamed of in my childhood. Yes, I have experianced 71 years of reality, and when I see certain things happening, I can see what the future, in the short term, two or three decades, will be. Renewables costing less to install and run will be chosen over fossil fuels. Grid scale batteries will make that power 24/7. That is the economic reality.
 
Post #6, the part that says 3.7 cents a kilowatt as opposed to 6.6 cents a kilowatt from dirty coal. Add the grid scale batteries to that equation, and that number of 8.3% of the grid is going to change rapidly. Rapidly enough that they will be shutting down coal plants that have life still in them as a matter of economics.
8.3%, talk to me when it is 25% or something around a quarter of the grid. Did yo see the map? Where are they going to add the additional farms?
Egad, you do realize Texas is a pretty large place, right? Then again, maybe not.
 
Oncor proposes giant leap for grid batteries Dallas Morning News

Oncor, which runs Texas’ largest power line network, is willing to bet battery technology is ready for wide-scale deployment across the grid.

In a move that stands to radically shift the dynamics of the industry, Oncor is set to announce Monday that it is prepared to invest more than $2 billion to store electricity in thousands of batteries across North and West Texas beginning in 2018.

Utility-scale batteries have been a holy grail within the energy sector for years. With enough storage space, surplus electricity can be generated at night, when plants usually sit idle, to be used the next day, when demand is highest. Power outages would become less frequent. Wind and solar power, susceptible to weather conditions, could be built on a larger scale. The only problem has been that the price of batteries has been too high to make economic sense. But if they’re purchased on a large enough scale, that won’t be the case for long, said Oncor CEO Bob Shapard.

“Everyone assumed the price point was five to six years out. We’re getting indications from everyone we’ve talked to they can get us to that price by 2018,” he said in an interview Wednesday.

The Dallas-based transmission company is proposing the installation of 5,000 megawatts of batteries not just in its service area but across Texas’ entire grid. That is the equivalent of four nuclear power plants on a grid with a capacity of about 81,000 megawatts.

Ranging from refrigerator- to dumpster-size, the batteries would be installed behind shopping centers and in neighborhoods. Statewide, Oncor estimates a total price tag of $5.2 billion. A study commissioned by Oncor with the Brattle Group, a Massachusetts consulting firm that provides power market analysis for state regulators, says the project would not raise bills. Revenue from rental of storage space on the batteries, along with a decrease in power prices and transmission costs, should actually decrease the average Texas residential power bill 34 cents to $179.66 a month, the report said.

My, my, both renewables and grid scale batteries reduce the price of electricity for the consumer and the utility. Now, when the inevitable battery with 4 times the capacity of todays battery, at a price that is a small fraction of todays batteries, who will want to buy gasoline or diesel?

I have been reading these types of "happy stories" for about 40 years now. Not just with energy, but with medicine. The cure for diabetes was "just around the corner" 40 years ago.

I'm a realist. This is what I believe. I believe that when power companies all start to make a wholesale change to renewables that they will finally be competitive.

And until that time, all these "happy stories" are simply pie in the sky bullshit.

Reality is a great teacher. Look around and learn, don't let some article sway you to believe in something that probably won't happen.

Mark
I see. So you don't think that Oncor will do what they state. Well, by 2020, we will see. Within my lifetime, I have seen big areas of Eastern Oregon get electricity and paved roads. I have seen phones go from a luxury, that cost a lot to use, and a fortune to use across state and national boundries, the the present every present cell phones with which you can contact anyone in the world for one set fee.

And then there is the means that we are comminucating on. Not even dreamed of in my childhood. Yes, I have experianced 71 years of reality, and when I see certain things happening, I can see what the future, in the short term, two or three decades, will be. Renewables costing less to install and run will be chosen over fossil fuels. Grid scale batteries will make that power 24/7. That is the economic reality.

I hope you are right. I graduated with a degree in architecture in 1976. At that time, solar was "on the cusp" of becoming the energy for the future.

I am still waiting.

Mark
 
Well, Mark, the development of solar has been slow. However, with utility scale costs of Photovoltaic solar coming in at an unsubsidized 7.2 cents a kilowatt, and dirty coal at 6.6 cents a kilowatt, we are nearly there on solar. Given that the efficiency of solar continues to rise even as the price drops, the future is pretty clear.

And then there are the externalities. No childrens asthma from either solar or wind. No mercury, lead, arsenic, and uranium expelled into the atmosphere. Even the cleanest of the coal plants, and those produce electricity at a much higher price than 6.6 cents a kilowatt, produce some of these toxins.
 

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