Oh Look, not a minor at all

[Yurt]

First, Im not convinced in some boogeyman 1984 knee jerk reflex that their rights have been violated.

Second, if a cop comes into my house on a faulty warrant and finds my 5 foot graphix bong I'm still going to be arrested.

third, Yes, I call statutory rape, as evident in pregnant 13 year olds, imminent. You may want to dance around how I turned the question around on you but I don't see you making the same case over wiretapped phones, racial profiling at airports or the attention that mosques get these days. Perhaps you don't think statutory rape is as horrible as the idea of dirty bombs in the jet blue suitcase. I do. And, while I'll defend personal rights all day long, im not going to avoid answering a question about a faulty warrant uncovering pregnant 13 year olds, terrorism OR child porn.

there was nothing evident, only an anonymous phone call. you didn't turn anything around on me....you are just examining the slippery slope and injecting your own facts into the situation. if there had been an undercover investigation, or something more reliable than some anonymous phone call, different story. the state clearly is out to get these people. if there are more facts you have that support the warrant, make them clear, instead of using other "examples" that do nothing to support your case in this action.

if the warrant was faulty, your bong would be excluded as fruit of the poisonous tree.

 

[AllieBaba]

FLDS are definitely NOT Christians.

They say they are.
I don't know if they are or not. But they certainly identify themselves as such. And the liberal press hates Christians who dare to distinguish themselves from the rest of the world.

 

[BrianH]

I can bring up anything I want, dumbass.
And if we're discussing the rights of women to have or not have children when they're underage, abortion certainly is a part of the equation. You can't say they have a right to privacy if they're underage and aborting their children, then claim they have no right to privacy if they're underage and choosing NOT to abort. It's idiotic, even you should be able to see the double standard.

If the state isn't allowed to investigate the circumstances of underage pregnant girls in abortion clinics, then the state sure as shit shouldn't be allowed to storm into the homes of underage pregnant girls/mothers and take them from their homes based upon nothing but the fact that they're underage and having babies.

Too complicated for you?

Finally, there is no proof that the mothers are putting the girls into abusive situations. And if anonymous phone calls, one from a renowned wacko and the other who has "disappeared" are all that is needed to indict, then we're all in big trouble.

Why do you think the mothers in this situation are so much more heinous than the mothers of 12 year olds who get abortions, who are protected by the law from investigation, repercussion, or having their children taken from them? You think it's somehow different when a mom of a 15-year-old lets her daughter spend quality time with her 18 year old "boyfriend" (aka, "pimp") than the mom who allows her 15 year old get married and start a family?

And how does the "my body my choice" mantra apply only to girls getting abortions, and not to those who decide to get married and have babies? You think welfare girls who get knocked up starting at 13 aren't subjected to "brainwashing" resulting in them thinking it's ok for them to go out and have sex indiscriminately? Remember, after all...it's illegal for underage girls to have sex, period.

Not only that, by protecting the privacy of underage girls who get abortion, there is no way the wonderful, upstanding, "young" boyfriends who are getting them pregnant (btw, they aren't usually young, not in the eyes of the law) are ever held accountable because the girls' PRIVACY is protected and they are not ASKED who the father of the baby is.

Unlike the girls who have been yanked from their homes in this case, subjected to gynocological exams, and who, when they refuse to name the fathers or identify their children, are being subjected to DNA testing.

I agree, keep bringing it up and making yourself look like an ass...it normally isn't too hard for you to do that. Your abortion analogy is weak and not even close to being an actual analogy. But do keep bringing it up. The circumstance you suggest with abortion clinics and under-aged girls is completely different from this compound and it's teachings/practices. But if you're too thick-headed to understand that, that's fine by me. I'm used to you being a rediculous pompus-ass who doesn't know what she's talking about. You keep comparing this to abortion clinics because you have nothing else to "aid" your argument. The fact that you have exhausted your brain shows. You have to make inanalogous analogies.

I'll explain it again...

Girls that get children aborted have to have an adult with them for one thing...In my state. The girl (in society) is 99% of the time having sex without her parents' knowledge and or was raped. Both of which can lead to consequences, but since the parents were not facilitating or aiding this behavior, then the girl is not taken from the family. INstead, the parents have the right to press charges on an older-aged person, or a rapist. And the girl having to abort a child is punishment enough don't you think??

Girls in the compound don't have the choice of who they want to have sex with or marry. They are married off and forced to have sex with older men. The difference between the two, is that the parents and people of the community are facilitating this type of ILLEGAL activity. Because the parents are facilitating it (whether they know better or not), is grounds for taking a kid away.

It's the same concept with other illegal activities. If a kid leaves home for the day and goes out an deals crack without his parents knowledge, then the kid gets in trouble. He doesn't get taken from his home, (unless it's discovered that he's in a bad environment), instead, he gets in trouble and will be encouraged more to stay home and get his life together. Now, if he's dealing crack out of his parents house, and being aided by his parents, then there's a problem. The state will take him away.

I'm not quite sure why I'm explaining this to you because I'm certain you'll bring up abortion clinics again as a desparate attempt to further your heinous argument. Here's to you shit-for-brains.!!

 

[BrianH]

They say they are.
I don't know if they are or not. But they certainly identify themselves as such. And the liberal press hates Christians who dare to distinguish themselves from the rest of the world.

YOU ARE STUPID...

They don't distinguish themselves. In fact, they're so caught up in their illegal activities, that they buy large acre compounds in the middle of the wilderness and perfer to stay secluded. I'm beginning to think you're a member.

 

[BrianH]

there was nothing evident, only an anonymous phone call. you didn't turn anything around on me....you are just examining the slippery slope and injecting your own facts into the situation. if there had been an undercover investigation, or something more reliable than some anonymous phone call, different story. the state clearly is out to get these people. if there are more facts you have that support the warrant, make them clear, instead of using other "examples" that do nothing to support your case in this action.

if the warrant was faulty, your bong would be excluded as fruit of the poisonous tree.

If your neighbor makes an anonymous phone call and says that you have been renting your children out for sex. The police will show up. If they find that it's not true, your neighbors phone will be traced and he/she will be in big trouble. If they find out it is true, you'll have your children taken away. Anonymous or not, the police had every right to raid the place. If they had found nothing, then that would have been the end of it...but they did find many things questionable...

 

[Dogger]

I'm going to start calling in anonymous calls for every girl I see going in or out of abortion clinics now, and see what pops up in their homes.....

The girl was prosecuted. How much jail time are you willing to do?

Emergency calls are tricky. Reports of an ongoing crime are usually treated as legitimate, and help is sent in.

What happens if enough people do what allie suggests? Eventually the cops will need to see proof before responding to 9/11 calls. That will kill some living, breathing people, an outcome that never seems to disturb the Pre-Life crowd.

 

[Yurt]

If your neighbor makes an anonymous phone call and says that you have been renting your children out for sex. The police will show up. If they find that it's not true, your neighbors phone will be traced and he/she will be in big trouble. If they find out it is true, you'll have your children taken away. Anonymous or not, the police had every right to raid the place. If they had found nothing, then that would have been the end of it...but they did find many things questionable...

well, you live in a different state than i then. in order to get a warrant using anonymous sources, you must use a certain test. else, this country would be overrun with prank calls. your example of course has led to this situation, the police showed up.

what if they showed up at your door one night? oh, you have nothing to hide, right? so no big deal if the police raid your house because of an anonymous phone call. is that what you are really saying?

what is your address?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Now we find out that DOZENS of the so called minors are being claimed as adults by the sect. And that two not one has already been released, one was 22 YEARS old. The State seized them for one purpose to ensure their children would be born as wards of the State so the State could keep the children.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080518/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat

Two dozen of the children may actually be adults; authorities are still trying to sort out whether nearly half the teen girls they've had in foster care facilities are actually adults. Last week, they conceded two women who gave birth since the raid are actually 18 and 22.

This is so wrong it is appalling. Yet you all find no problem with it.

Walther said she'd do everything she could to avoid another mass proceeding, but lawyers for the parents say it's unlikely the upcoming hearings will give any real opportunity for the return of children.

"There's no opportunity for the mothers to battle against the idea that the kids should have been taken away in the first place," said Cynthia Martinez, a spokeswoman for Texas Rio Grande Legal Aid lawyers who represent 48 mothers in the case.

and

FLDS spokesman Rod Parker said the Child Protective Services plans for what the parents must do to get their children returned are identical except for the case number.

"CPS is still trying to treat them as a group," Parker said. "They really aren't focused on the individual needs."

CPS spokeswoman Marleigh Meisner said the state is using a "template" for the plans but insists they'll be individualized in coming weeks.

"The issues in these plans are very similar which is why we were able to use a template as a starting point," she said.

In a sample provided to The Associated Press, the plan does not outline a specific allegation of abuse involving a particular child and only repeats broad accusations made previously of the entire sect.

Tune this out all you want, all you are doing is assuring that in the future the State can seize any child for any reason or in fact no reason at all. Then force the families to prove to a system that has already condemned them that they are acceptable parents.

Any chance at reversal of the initial custody decision most likely comes from one of a number of appeals and claims pending in other courts.

Two claims pending before an appellate court in Austin ask it to force individual consideration of the removals and to examine whether the state fulfilled its obligation to make removal from the home a last resort.

The criteria of the State to remove children was NOT meet in almost everyone of these cases and now we learn 24 plus of the 39 "children" that were pregnant are not even 'children" at all. The State is illegally refusing to recognize Utah State Birth Certificates and holding adults ILLEGALLY.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Ohh look even more women have been admitted to be adults not children. And now they are saying there were only 31 underage mothers and most of them claim to be of age. So much for honesty from Texas.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080520/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat

When the hearings resumed Tuesday, the welfare agency acknowledged that another three young mothers are actually 18 or older. That acknowledgment, following earlier admissions about four other young mothers, means the state has no more than 24 underage mothers in state custody, not 31, as officials initially said. About 20 others may still be reclassified.

Meaning at most they have 4 underage girls. And this was the excuse to seize almost 500 children.

Parker said the final number of underage mothers will likely be closer to five or six, though he acknowledged that some of the young mothers apparently were pregnant while younger than 17 — Texas' age of consent.

"We've always known there are one or two or three examples out there," Parker said. "What I've always denied is that there are (dozens) out there."

Hope the State loses even more money for the illegal action they took.

In Austin on Tuesday, state lawmakers began adding up the costs related to the raid and began trying to figure out where to find the $30 million the case is expected to cost over the next year.

Health and Human Services Executive Commissioner Albert Hawkins told the Senate Finance Committee that it will cost about $1.7 million a month to care for the children. The initial raid cost an estimated $5.3 million, and at least $2.2 million will be needed to help the local courts handle legal proceedings for each child.

 

[BrianH]

well, you live in a different state than i then. in order to get a warrant using anonymous sources, you must use a certain test. else, this country would be overrun with prank calls. your example of course has led to this situation, the police showed up.

what if they showed up at your door one night? oh, you have nothing to hide, right? so no big deal if the police raid your house because of an anonymous phone call. is that what you are really saying?

what is your address?

LOL....I'm telling you...whether you agree or not. If your neighbor calls the police and says that he hears screams coming from your home, and that you've been renting your daughter out for sex. The police will come knocking. If it's true, you're in trouble, if it's false, your neighbor is in trouble. It's just the way that it works. Are you telling me that this is not true?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

LOL....I'm telling you...whether you agree or not. If your neighbor calls the police and says that he hears screams coming from your home, and that you've been renting your daughter out for sex. The police will come knocking. If it's true, you're in trouble, if it's false, your neighbor is in trouble. It's just the way that it works. Are you telling me that this is not true?

It would not be enough to get a warrant on just that. They may come knocking but if they hear and see nothing from outside and you do not let them in, they have no grounds to enter.

Once again it is obvious from the game being played with these adults being held as children the State is not acting in good faith. Further they are not acting in good faith as to how the families can get their children back. And the Higher Court is refusing to do its job and investigate the charges of the State violating their own laws.

But the State is losing a lot of money and personally I hope they lose even more. I hope the group hires some good Lawyers and takes this to Federal Court for violation of Equal protection and Civil Rights.