Of Salvation

[8236]

AJ:

"Israel has had many, many alliances in their long history".

Your need to minimize, or dismiss outright, America's role in Israel's very existence is almost a reflex. Why is that?

"In the end, friendships can be counted on only as long as times are good".

Times weren't too good during the sinking of the USS Liberty. Times were downright rotten on September 11, 2001. Deride Christianity all you want - it only shows your lack of understanding. The American Christian Right will never allow this nation to abandon Israel. You ought to be rooting for us. We are besieged on all fronts by enemies foreign and domestic. It would be nice if we could live in peace with our friends.

P.S. - I hate to break this to you, but America IS in a big war with Islam.

Am I the only person wondering what this has to do with religion?

 

[ajwps]

Am I the only person wondering what this has to do with religion?

For your information:

Musicman is trying to prove that Christian America is the only reason Israel has survived repeated attempts at destructive civilizations for more than 3,316 years.

Ergo American Christianity is and has been the only friend and ally of Israel and the Jewish people. That Israel should genuflect in front of America and confess thanks for its existence.

 

[ajwps]

Correction: The Liberty wasn't sunk - merely the victim of an unprovoked attack by an ally. Sorry.

Sooooo, Israel is guilty of something to their Christian allies for an unprovoiked attack on an American spy ship off the shores of Israel in the middle of a war with the Arabs?

And no one knows exactly what an American spy ship was doing spying on Israel. The Liberty ship was not on a pleasure cruise with tourists enjoying the Mediterranian sea.

And Americans soldiers in their battle tanks have been killed by friendly American fire in the last gulf war not to mention the untold accidents of mistaken firing and bombing of many Americans soldiers and by other Americans. These Americans were also the victims of unprovoked attacks by their own forces.

What is your point?

 

[8236]

For your information:

Musicman is trying to prove that Christian America is the only reason Israel has survived repeated attempts at destructive civilizations for more than 3,316 years.

Ergo American Christianity is and has been the only friend and ally of Israel and the Jewish people. That Israel should genuflect in front of America and confess thanks for its existence.

Scuzi: genuflect?

I kinda agree with his point- I'd reduce the 3316(? where that come from) to 50 though.

I apologise for my not having read all the preceding posts: I'd still be reading next week(Ok exageration)

 

[8236]

Sooooo, Israel is guilty of something to their Christian allies for an unprovoiked attack on an American spy ship off the shores of Israel in the middle of a war with the Arabs?

And no one knows exactly what an American spy ship was doing spying on Israel. The Liberty ship was not on a pleasure cruise with tourists enjoying the Mediterranian sea.

And Americans soldiers in their battle tanks have been killed by friendly American fire in the last gulf war not to mention the untold accidents of mistaken firing and bombing of many Americans soldiers and by other Americans. These Americans were also the victims of unprovoked attacks by their own forces.

What is your point?

My point would be that: Miauw: It is a well known fact that American forces have an uncanny knack of hitting their own side. Op. Cobra and Monte Cassino in WWII for instance, and their allies Brits in the Guff War(round 1). Did anyone on your side of the pond see the spectacular own goal as filmed by embedded Brit journalist John Simpson (he was nearly obliterated by a maverick missile) when the US 'Special forces' didn't bother giving the coords of the Iraqi tanks the US planes were meant to be attacking- result 13 dead (no Americans)

The word s 'trigger happy' spring to mind- ofcourse

 

[ajwps]

AJ:
"Israel has had many, many alliances in their long history". Your need to minimize, or dismiss outright, America's role in Israel's very existence is almost a reflex. Why is that?

Following Israel's declaration as a democratic state in 1948, the Arab armies attacked the day old country. The United States did not send soldiers to assist Israel, they wouldn't even sell them arms to fight the attacking armies. Some Jewish Americans covertly sent small Arms to Israel and were prosecuted by the US goverment for this treason.

Israel bought the only arms to defend themselves from Czechoslovakia. No other country in the world helped Israel. Thanks our American Chrisitian allies....

"In the end, friendships can be counted on only as long as times are good".

Times weren't too good during the sinking of the USS Liberty. Times were downright rotten on September 11, 2001. Deride Christianity all you want - it only shows your lack of understanding. The American Christian Right will never allow this nation to abandon Israel. You ought to be rooting for us. We are besieged on all fronts by enemies foreign and domestic. It would be nice if we could live in peace with our friends.

So you speak for all American Christianity that will never allow the US to abandon Israel. Words like always, never and forever are a sure sign of a lack of understanding. Israel and the USA are working together for each other's technological and security in an alliance that is mutually beneficial to both countries. Both countries are rooting for each other in a mutual symbiotic relationship.

P.S. - I hate to break this to you, but America IS in a big war with Islam.

For your information, Israel has also been in a big war with Islamic terror for many more years than America.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5551786/

 

[8236]

]For your information, Israel has also been in a big war with Islamic terror for many more years than America.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5551786/

No, surely you are wrong, is this not the 8th or is it 9th or maybe 10th crusade? Wot are you arguing about? You are both on the same side!

(Unrelated)can anyone tell me the meaning of the 3 red squares under my nuber of posts stat: Am I heading for a ban?

 

[ajwps]

Scuzi: genuflect?

I kinda agree with his point- I'd reduce the 3316(? where that come from) to 50 though.

I apologise for my not having read all the preceding posts: I'd still be reading next week(Ok exageration)

So you would reduce Israel's continued existence to 50 years instead of the archeological evidence of their entrance into the land of Canaan some 3,316 years. Many civilizations and countries have attacked Israel, occuppied Israel for periods of time but always Israel and the Jewish people have had a presence in this land.

I'm sorry but there were no Christian Americans when Israel was attacked by the Romans, the Babylonians, the Assyrians, the Ottomans, the British, etc.

Yes, simply ignore history....

 

[ajwps]

No, surely you are wrong, is this not the 8th or is it 9th or maybe 10th crusade? Wot are you arguing about? You are both on the same side!

Yes Israel and America is on the same side. Both are and have been under attack by the militant Islamic terrorists. America only came to this realization on 09/11.

This had nothing to do with the Crusaders attacking, raping and robbing everyone along the way to Jerusalem.

 

[8236]

So you would reduce Israel's continued existence to 50 years instead of the archeological evidence of their entrance into the land of Canaan some 3,316 years. Many civilizations and countries have attacked Israel, occuppied Israel for periods of time but always Israel and the Jewish people have had a presence in this land.

I'm sorry but there were no Christian Americans when Israel was attacked by the Romans, the Babylonians, the Assyrians, the Ottomans, the British, etc.

Yes, simply ignore history....

Yes plz do ignore history. Please do ignore the fact that Arabs and Jews are the SAME people. Need I say more that Shalom/Salaam?

Btw again: 3316 Where does that number come from? The bible obviously! It is an approximation +- 100 or 200 years. Was Abraham a Jew or only Moses onwards?

 

[8236]

Yes Israel and America is on the same side. Both are and have been under attack by the . America only came to this realization on 09/11.

This had nothing to do with the Crusaders attacking, raping and robbing everyone along the way to Jerusalem.

My point would be that the 'militant Islamic terrorists' might claim that Islam was under attac since the time of the crusades. And the Xians would say they were under attack from Islam from the time of its in/conception or under attack from the Romans or..... blabla.

It's all a viscious circle of stupidity. From all sides. And America is not helping at the moment and Israel is rubbing its hand with glee.

 

[ajwps]

Yes plz do ignore history. Please do ignore the fact that Arabs and Jews are the SAME people. Need I say more that Shalom/Salaam?

Same people? Are you an anthropologist or something?

Btw again: 3316 Where does that number come from? The bible obviously! It is an approximation +- 100 or 200 years. Was Abraham a Jew or only Moses onwards?

No not the Bible obviously? READ THIS CAREFULLY AND SLOWLY SO YOU CAN UNDERSTAND....

More archeological digs have been done in Israel than anywhere else in the world.

Archeological evidence is so abundant that the Jewish people have occuppied this land from a little more than 3,316 years ago. Do you need a signed affidavit?

http://www.biblical-archaeology.net/

Biblical archaeology then turns to the evidence for the early Israelites. The Merneptah Stele (also known as the Israel Stele) is an upright stone slab measuring over seven feet tall that contains carved hieroglyphic text dating to approximately 1230 BC. The Egyptian stele describes the military victories of Pharaoh Merneptah and includes the earliest mention of "Israel" outside the Bible. Although the specific battles covered by the stele are not included in the Bible, the stele establishes extra-biblical evidence that the Israelites were already living as a people in ancient Canaan by 1230 BC. In addition to the Stele, a large wall picture was discovered in the great Karnak Temple of Luxor (ancient Thebes), which shows battle scenes between the Egyptians and Israelites. These scenes have also been attributed to Pharaoh Merneptah and date to approximately 1209 BC. The Karnak Temple also contains records of Pharaoh Shishak's military victories about 280 years later. Specifically, the Shishak Relief depicts Egypt's victory over King Rehoboam in about 925 BC, when Solomon's Temple in Judah was plundered. This is the exact event mentioned in 1 Kings 14 and 2 Chronicles 12.

Outside Egypt, we also discover a wealth of evidence for the early Israelites. The Moabite Stone (Mesha Stele) is a three-foot stone slab discovered near Dibon ,East of the Dead Sea, that describes the reign of Mesha, King of Moab, around 850 BC. According to Genesis 19, the Moabites were neighbors of the Israelites. The stele covers victories by King Omri and Ahab of Israel against Moab, and Mesha's later victories on behalf of Moab against King Ahab's descendants (2 Kings 3). The Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser is a seven-foot, four-sided pillar of basalt that describes the victories of King Shalmaneser III of Assyria. Dated to about 841 BC, the Obelisk was discovered in the ancient palace of Nimrud and shows Israel's King Jehu kneeling before the Assyrian king in humble tribute (see 2 Kings 9-10.

 

[Comrade]

(Unrelated)can anyone tell me the meaning of the 3 red squares under my nuber of posts stat: Am I heading for a ban?

No, it's just that you have been hammered with a great deal of people clicking on your post to send you a -1 to you're rep.

Click "User CP" at the upper left and browse the "last reputation recieved" list for comments people wrote, and click on the comment to go to the post in question.

I think you're shaping up well and won't be banned, but I'm no admin.

 

[ajwps]

My point would be that the 'militant Islamic terrorists' might claim that Islam was under attac since the time of the crusades. And the Xians would say they were under attack from Islam from the time of its in/conception or under attack from the Romans or..... blabla.

It's all a viscious circle of stupidity. From all sides. And America is not helping at the moment and Israel is rubbing its hand with glee.

Oh its all so easy with your understanding of history with your blahblahblah.

That statement of yours alone is very illustrative and based on evidence. blablahblah

 

[Comrade]

My point would be that the 'militant Islamic terrorists' might claim that Islam was under attac since the time of the crusades. And the Xians would say they were under attack from Islam from the time of its in/conception or under attack from the Romans or..... blabla.

It's all a viscious circle of stupidity. From all sides. And America is not helping at the moment and Israel is rubbing its hand with glee.

Jews were attacked by Islam first.

Mohammed slaughtered entire Jewish communities in his quest to conquer in the name of Islam, and took those few attractive young women spared as sex slaves. These accounts are in the Hadiths and are rather brutal.

 

[musicman]

AJ:

Attempting a dialogue with you is a frustrating business, since your idea of conversation is a never-ending game of "debate, deflect, and misdirect."

"Ergo American Christianity is AND HAS BEEN the only friend and ally of Israel and the Jewish people."

I said nothing of the kind. I said that Jews, and the State of Israel, have no better friends on earth than the American Christian right.

"So, you speak for ALL AMERICAN CHRISTIANS that will never allow the US to abandon Israel."

I said nothing of the kind. I said that Jews, and the State of Israel, have no better friends on earth than the American Christian right.

AJ, you know, adding to someone's words (see emphasized portions) in order to twist them according to your desires is kind of like....well, LYING. Let's move on:

"In the end, friendship can be counted on only as long as times are good. But if things begin to look glum, and the US gets into a big war with Islam, there is always the Jews and Israel to blame."

I replied, *I hate to break this to you, but America IS in a big war with Islam.* You answered like a cornered child who has just run out of excuses: "For your information, Israel has also been in a big war with Islamic terror for many more years than America."

Excuse me, but what has this to do with anything? It is meaningless to the discussion, completely irrelevant to the point, a pitifully lame attempt to - all together now, kids - DEBATE, DEFLECT, AND MISDIRECT.

"That Israel should genuflect in front of America and confess thanks for its existence."

That's the kind of attitude that gives ammunition to Israel's enemies - the perception that the American taxpayer doles out billions of dollars a year to aid a nation of snarling ingrates. Way to go, AJ. Keep up the good work.

 

[musicman]

Sooooo, Israel is guilty of something to their Christian allies for an unprovoiked attack on an American spy ship off the shores of Israel in the middle of a war with the Arabs?

And no one knows exactly what an American spy ship was doing spying on Israel. The Liberty ship was not on a pleasure cruise with tourists enjoying the Mediterranian sea.

And Americans soldiers in their battle tanks have been killed by friendly American fire in the last gulf war not to mention the untold accidents of mistaken firing and bombing of many Americans soldiers and by other Americans. These Americans were also the victims of unprovoked attacks by their own forces.

What is your point?

Debate, deflect, misdirect.

What is YOUR point? It's not Israel's fault because the Americans shouldn't have been there???!!!

It's not Israel's fault because Americans are killed by friendly fire all the time?????!!!!!!!!

I'm sure the widows and fatherless children of the Liberty's crew would have taken great comfort in your words.

Is anything ever Israel's fault? Does Israel owe a debt of gratitude to anyone?

 

[Comrade]

I agree with ajwps, Israel relied on and remains reliant on US support for survival.

The attack on the Liberty was not intentional. There was no attempt to conceal the orgin of the attack nor the identified residue from the munitions used. They could have concealed either.

I hear much about how the risk outweighs the reward from the left (ie. concealing how well the attack succeeded to delay the peace by taking out the US eyes and ears, etc.)

Even if this did, the attack was clearly sourced from an Israeli attack and this whole 'conspiracy' was lacking in foresight.

Or was that part of the conspiracy now? Being so obviously an accident to conceal the real intention?

Nope, too far gone for me. Accidental.

 

[musicman]

Comrade:

"I agree with ajwps, Israel relied on and remains reliant on U.S. support for survival".

I don't know how you can be agreeing with AJ via that statement, when he would rather die, staked to an anthill, than ever say such a thing. The closest I've ever seen him come is, "Israel and the USA are working together for each other's technological and security in an alliance that is mutually beneficial to both countries". And, to even get to that, you've got to wade through a metric ton of sarcasm like, "Thanks our American Christian allies", and, "...Israel should genuflect in front of America and confess thanks for its existence".

"The attack on the Liberty was unintentional".

AJ doesn't seem to be overly worried about such fine distinctions. In fact, all he wants to know is "exactly what an American spy ship was doing spying on Israel". The surviving members of the Liberty, who spoke out, even though threatened with prosecution, didn't have any doubts at all. They have stated, to a man, that there is no way the Israeli pilots did not know they were firing on an American ship.

Have you considered the possibility that the reason there was no attempt to hide the origin of the attack was that Israel was that purely, arrogantly secure of American support?

 

[Comrade]

Comrade:

"I agree with ajwps, Israel relied on and remains reliant on U.S. support for survival".

I don't know how you can be agreeing with AJ via that statement, when he would rather die, staked to an anthill, than ever say such a thing. The closest I've ever seen him come is, "Israel and the USA are working together for each other's technological and security in an alliance that is mutually beneficial to both countries". And, to even get to that, you've got to wade through a metric ton of sarcasm like, "Thanks our American Christian allies", and, "...Israel should genuflect in front of America and confess thanks for its existence".

I kind of jumped in here late, but I stand by the statement that without U.S. backing, Israel would not have survived past the 60's, once France and U.K. bailed on them.

"The attack on the Liberty was unintentional".

AJ doesn't seem to be overly worried about such fine distinctions. In fact, all he wants to know is "exactly what an American spy ship was doing spying on Israel". The surviving members of the Liberty, who spoke out, even though threatened with prosecution, didn't have any doubts at all. They have stated, to a man, that there is no way the Israeli pilots did not know they were firing on an American ship.

I guess I still believe they didn't attack their primary ally based on a chance to delay a peace treaty by a few hours. The same ally which arranged them to give up the entire Saini Peninisula a few years thereafter.

IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE. RISK vs. REWARD = Don't risk it.

Have you considered the possibility that the reason there was no attempt to hide the origin of the attack was that Israel was that purely, arrogantly secure of American support?

Nah, because American are cynical, astute, educated people. So are Jews. We understand each other.