Of Salvation

Discussion in 'Religion and Ethics' started by Shazbot, Aug 17, 2004.

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  1. Shazbot
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    Shazbot Member

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    A branch from the thread entitled "Government-Christian Groups Lock Horns over Anti-Conversion Bill"

    And you say that I said a mouthful! :) Ok, point by point, eh?

    1)It is held that Christ's sacrifice was infinite and eternal - applying to those alive during His time, to those who would yet be born, and to all those who ever had lived. The Atonement of Christ is therefore retroactive. Indeed, in my faith, the very Law of Moses, apart from being a moral code to prepare the Israelites, was a symbol of the Great and Last sacrifice to be made by Christ.

    2)I have already stated my views on this matter. Those who did/do not have the opportunity to accept the Gospel of Christ in this life, will have said opportunity in the life hereafter.
    3) The concept of receiving the opportunity of Salvation in the life hereafter is not a second-chance theory. If I know all about Christ, but reject His Gospel, then I cannot hope to get a second chance after I die.

    4) A common misconception. Many people take individual scriptures which focus on the fact that faith in Christ is a requirement for salvation (which it is), and translate it as meaning that this faith is the only requirement for salvation. What about all the times Jesus taught his disciples what they should do and how they should act? What about following the commandments? Can I say that I have faith, accept Christ, and then not follow the commandments? I think not. Then, there is this scripture:
    Basically, true faith in Christ is the primary requisite - salvation is a gift, not something that we can earn through our merits. However, we have to exercise that faith, and show God that we are willing to follow Him and do all He has asked of us. Right there is where good works come in.

    -Douglas
     
  2. ajwps
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    ajwps Active Member

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    [I=Shazbot]A branch from the thread entitled "Government-Christian Groups Lock Horns over Anti-Conversion Bill"

    It is held about Christ's eternal sacrifice but by whom was it held? So you believe that the very law of Moses was somehow nothing more than a preparation for the Israelites (not gentiles) getting prepared for Christ's sacrifice. Powerful reasoning.

    Would you agree that Christ's first coming was somehow a symbol of a second coming of Christ when he met Joseph Smith in Philadelphia, PA?

    It is held that somehow this second coming was a foreshadowing a brand new covenant with his new church of the Latter Day Saints. By the same ones who held Christs first eternal sacrifice no less.

    Can you follow your reasoning here?

    So after a non-believer is dead and ready to understand that an afterlife and a Creator are no longer in question, then Jesus will come along and preach to this new choir of the lost dead who will believe him. I'll bet it won't take much convincing.

    Oops my mistake. I see, this chance for salvation is gonna be offered for a 'one-time opportunity' only to those who weren't told of this miraculous god in life on earth or lived before he was born. That sounds fair to me.

    Okay

    For Salvation with Christ

    1) faith in Christ
    +
    2) Christ told his disciples what and how to do things. (The Jewish disciples had to be aware of the Ten Commandments before Jesus advised them of same).

    GIFT OF SALVATION

    So Christ asks you to do good works but they are not necessary for salvation. Why do good works at all if they are not necessary?

    This is also the differentiation between Christianity and Judaism.

    Christianity is a religion of CREED (for reward of paradise with Christ)

    Judaism is a religion of DEED (with no guarantee of a prize or reward in any afterlife)


    I think I will take the one with no guarantee for doing good deeds and only for the happiness in doing them without a treat at the end.
     
  3. Shazbot
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    It is held by myself and many other like Christians. The idea is based on the fact that God is a just and fair God, and is no respecter of persons. Those who live after Christ are no more special than those who lived before. Furthermore, it is supported by such scriptures as 1 Cor. 15:22.
    Had they been ready and prepared for it, the Israelites would have lived by a form of the Gospel which Jesus taught, only looking forward to Christ instead of looking back on His sacrifice. We see from the history of the Israelites that the Law of Moses served as a baser law which they were ready for, which would prepare the people as a whole for the Gospel Jesus would teach. By living the Law, the Israelites would be able to understand better the coming of the Son of God. Furthermore, they would be a light to all the gentiles around them, showing them that the God that attended the Israelites was and is the one true God.
    Not at all. BTW it was in New York, not Pennsylvania.
    The Church of Latter Day Saints does not claim any new covenant with God - only the restoration of the gospel as it was formerly had by the early church of Christ. The covenant is the same one made to Noah and to Abraham.
    That depends on the knowledge of said "new choir." If I die right now, considering I am a non-believer, why would I suddenly understand that an afterlife with my Creator is out of the question? Remember that as I placed my views before, this opportunity to accept the Gospel after death takes place before the time of Judgement before God.
    Admittedly, I am sure it is all a bit more of a complex situation, which only God is capable of judging. Here's a question I have always had - at what point does a person actually reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ? I used to be one of those missionaries of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. There were lots of people who ran away after simply seeing us. There were others who just slammed doors in our faces. There were others who listened to us and then said no. There were others who listened to us and seriously contemplated the issue and then said no. Then there were others who were members of the church, and then fell away afterwards. I leave it to God to be the judge. All He has revealed is that Christ is the only way to salvation, and that all will have the opportunity to accept that fact.
    Who said that good works are not necessary? I hold it quite firm that if I clearly understand who Christ is, and have true faith in him, and don't act on it, then it avails me nothing. I must have faith and hope that Christ died for me, but I must also exercise and show that faith through my actions.
    The concept of a reward is very real, and may be a driving factor behind many of us in our attempts to be righteous. However, I think that a truly Christlike person will live righteously out of love for God and for fellow men.

    -Douglas
     
  4. ajwps
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    Did you say that G-d is a just and fair G-d and no respector of persons. And G-d gave mankind the Ten Commandments which were His own moral and ethical laws of life. G-d said, "Thou shalt not MURDER."

    Then you say that G-d violated His own Commandment by ordering the crucifixion MURDER of His son on the cross of Calvary. What kind of just and fair G-d violates His own Commandments of life for mankind? Does a just and fair G-d need to kill His own offspring to somehow justify the sinful nature of mankind that were placed in His flawed human creations? That is not the kind of G-d that I can find in the Eternal Creator.

    Ready for it you say? Why there was no warning of such a momentous event in the Bible before the Gospels! Even Jesus himself never claimed being a sacrificial diety during his lifetime but only after many years did a pretence Jew Paul make this claim and in the same breath condemned those who knew Jesus. The same Jews who were Jesus' father, mother, brothers, disciples, apostles, friends, relatives even his carpenter customers. And from Paul the same condemnation of Jewish Jesus and all their progeny throughout time. Paul put the words into Jesus' mouth in his Gpspels that Christ and the Jews were sons of Satan and worthy of being cursed throughout time. No Jesus would hang his head in shame if he knew what had been claimed for him so many years after his death like so many of his brothers. You go ahead and follow the Gospel's claims for Jesus but I choose to follow the Father.

    You say a restoration Covenant given to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was also given to Joseph Smith? You say Noah received a covenant from G-d?

    "The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ." The Book of Mormon is the new covenant of Jesus Christ. From the Gospel of the Mormons:

    The following is a picture representation of the gold plates Jesus gave to Joseph Smith in the USA (New York, Philadelphia ?)

    [​IMG]

    Were you born a Christian, raised up in the church of Jesus Christ and taught all your beliefs in salvation theology by your parents and your church? If so, why would you not recognize the divinity of Vishnu or the monkey god? They are as real to their believers as Jesus and his free gift of salvation is to you? Other than the Gospel versions with its inclusion of the Old Testament, how would you know about Judgement time or the resurrection of the dead? How can you save yourself for eternity if not for the sacrificial death of a god? How many ancient g-ds do you think were crucified just like Jesus Christ?

    How many of those people doors opened to you accepted the Latter Day Saints New Covenant with Jesus Christ? Do you know that unless your name is inscribed in the roles kept by the Mormons below their mountain can never be saved even by accepting Jesus Christ of Nazareth?

    Why is it that Christians are singularly concerned with their own salvation after death instead of how to live the gift of this life in righteousness for its own reward? You have accepted the words of St. Paul of Tarsus who curses all other non-believers and I will accept my existence as a gift with which I have the opportunity to follow my G-d and His laws of mercy, justice and charity. Not a hard decision.

    That is a very confusing point in the Gospels of Jesus Christ. Paul says good works are dead and cannot save you and then he says believing in Jesus Christ must include good works. VERY CONFUSING.....

    Yes you must HOPE that Christ died for you because you have now a very large vested interest in this theology of salvation in the sweet bye-and-bye. Think about it for a second. If you are wrong about Jesus dying for you and your sins, you will have only your actions toward others and to G-d Himself to answer for in that same sweet bye-and-bye.

    Have you ever heard of the Pavlov's dog effect? Many variations of this experiment demonstrates that animals can be made to do actions (or in this case beliefs) in the anticipation of a reward or treat at the end of the action.

    From an outside perspective of Christianity, this is exactly what the Gospels and Pavlov have in common.

    G-d created everything including you and me. Whatever happens after death is in His hands and somehow I don't think He meant for humans to jump through hoops or accept a man-god son for a treat or reward in that great beyond.

    NO OFFENSE MEANT TO YOUR BELIEFS
     
  5. dilloduck
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    dilloduck Diamond Member

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    AJ if God made the jews to be alight unto the people, yours if fading. Your whole goal in your last post was to desecrate the Christian religion.
     
  6. ajwps
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    Actually my last post was never meant to desecrate Christianity but actually to place a little light unto those who read these posts. There was no intent to convert or denigrate anyone's beliefs but was actually meant to give some insight to those who claim skepticism about an ultimate knowledge of everything.
     
  7. rtwngAvngr
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    It is the logic of all sacrifice. Why does a just and fair god need to kill innocent animals and burn the flesh for apparently no logical reason. See Leviticus.

    We just decided to move the sacrifice to backstory and eliminate a lot of gore in the story present.

    It is a GOOD BOOK.
     
  8. dilloduck
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    Well hopefully you can convert some people into your way of thinking by giving them insight!
     
  9. ajwps
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    The reason Jews were commanded to bring animal sacrifices and not HUMAN sacrifices. The purpose of animal sacrifice was to reject idolatry (belief in other gods). In ancient times the Egyptians worshiped lambs. The Kasdiyim people worshiped goats and the people of Hodo worshiped cattle. One of G-d's reasons for sacrificing these animal gods was for the Jewish people to reject this type of idolatry. Human sacrifice is an abomination to G-d and yet He would send a human man-god to be sacrificed? Not likely.....

    Did we eliminate a lot of gore in the Gospel? Did you see Mel Gibson's version of the "Passion of the Christ." Not much gore there don't you think?

    It is a GOOD FICTIONAL BOOK.
     
  10. ajwps
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    Only thinking people are capable of insight.....
     
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