OC Couple Threatened With $500-Per-Meeting Fines For Home Bible Study

[Quantum Windbag]

Ravi does make a good point, it is the state law. So they "should" be punished if it's a state law.

But what's more important is changing the state law, as this is ridiculous. Shouldn't have to pay for a permit to do something so basic. What's the difference between this and me having to buy a permit for a weekly 20 person hangout to watch tv cuz I have the biggest tv? (that's a hypothetical)

It is not a state law, it is a local ordinance that is facially unconstitutional.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Ravi does make a good point, it is the state law. So they "should" be punished if it's a state law.

But what's more important is changing the state law, as this is ridiculous. Shouldn't have to pay for a permit to do something so basic. What's the difference between this and me having to buy a permit for a weekly 20 person hangout to watch tv cuz I have the biggest tv? (that's a hypothetical)

Because you can't favor one neighbor over another.

According to their ordinances:

Additional activities. The Planning Director or his or her agent may approve, conditionally approve, or deny special activity permit requests for the following types of uses. These uses may be permitted for a period of time not to exceed thirty-two (32) days. The thirty-two (32) days allowed under a special use permit application shall not be broken into more than three (3) individual times per calendar year. Applications for such uses shall be on forms provided by the City and shall include all necessary information to review such requests for compliance with all applicable regulations.

(1)

Christmas tree sales;

(2)

Carnivals, festivals, and exhibits by non-profit community groups;

(3)

Sidewalk sales and special retail promotional events;

(4)

Horse shows and exhibitions not located at an existing equestrian center;

(5)

Promotional tents for car dealers; and

(6)

Any special activity proposed for a residential district (shall require adjacent property owner approval).

They signed up for these ordinances when the purchased their house. There is nothing stopping them from following them except their own laziness. Either that, or they are hiding something.

Nice, but they are not doing any of those things.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Entitlement junkies.

All they need to do is get a permit, but of course they are too good for that.

Who cares about states rights?

Yeah, the whole freedom of assembly and freedom of religion things are SOOOO outdated.

You can't give a religious group special rights.

But persecution is fine with you?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The Fromms’ citations say they violated section 9-3.301 of the Capistrano Municipal Code, which prohibits “religious, fraternal or non-profit” organizations in residential neighborhoods without a conditional-use permit. The footnote on the section says it “Includes churches, temples, synagogues, monasteries, religious retreats, and other places of religious worship and other fraternal and community service organizations.”

Capistrano’s code-enforcement department is reactive, meaning officers only respond to complaints. Stephanie Fromm said most residents in the neighborhood, off Rancho Viejo Road north of Junipero Serra Road, are supportive of them, although at least one neighbor has voiced concerns.

“We don’t like lawsuits, but we have to stand up for what’s right. It’s not just a personal issue,” Stephanie Fromm said. “Can you imagine anybody in any neighborhood, that one person can call and make it a living hell for someone else? That’s wrong … and it’s just sad.”

The Capistrano Dispatch - Capistrano Couple in Legal Battle for Hosting Bible Study in Home

I was right, entitlement junkies. She cares about her rights but not her neighbor's rights. You choose to live in a community, then act like your better than everyone else.

I bet even Jesus would tell her to stfu.

You were wrong, why can't you admit it. I actually cited the ordinance involved, and it is clearly aimed at speech. That makes it unconstitutional.

 

[Immanuel]

Then get the street designated as residential parking only. Problem solved.

Most residences are zone for residential parking.

All they need to do is get a permit. But they can't be bothered, instead they are whining. Pretty pathetic.

If the problem is parking how will a permit fix it? Since the problem has just been demonstrated not to be parking, why should they get a permit?

Where was it demonstrated not to be a parking issue? I think you made that claim, but I don't recall having read a post or a link that stated that this was not a parking issue.

The permit would not stop the parking problems. I would not be surprised to find out that the permit would be denied because of the parking issue.

Immie

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I am a Christian and have been to many weekly Home Bible Studies.

I have to say this, if this is a sub-division type of area and not something like Strollingbones described her "neighborhood" as then I have to agree with the county and the neighbors. Fifty people (maybe 30 cars?) twice a week every week is a bit much to ask your neighbors to put up with.

Can't they find a park or some kind of meeting room that won't be invasive of the neighborhood?

I respect their right to hold bible studies but there are times when one should consider the inconvenience to neighbors.

Immie

If that was the problem the city would be free to make parking illegal and ticket the cars. The fact that they chose to require a permit for the meeting instead proves that the issue is something else. I am positive that those people will still be parking if they get a permit, which is not going to fix anything.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Yeah, if they are bi-weekly, involving lots of people, and someone in the neighborhood complains.

If you read the various articles on this, it turns out that one of the neighbors complained to the city, the city investigated and told the couple they needed to apply for a permit, the couple didn't bother to apply for a permit but kept on having their meetings and ended up getting fined.

IMO, the fault is with them and no one else.

Personal responsibility. It may be a bitch but it works.

What would work, exactly? They go ahead and pay the money for the permit, then what? What changes?

The city gets money, and the power to tell people who they can invite to their house, and what they can talk about when they do.

 

[Immanuel]

I am a Christian and have been to many weekly Home Bible Studies.

I have to say this, if this is a sub-division type of area and not something like Strollingbones described her "neighborhood" as then I have to agree with the county and the neighbors. Fifty people (maybe 30 cars?) twice a week every week is a bit much to ask your neighbors to put up with.

Can't they find a park or some kind of meeting room that won't be invasive of the neighborhood?

I respect their right to hold bible studies but there are times when one should consider the inconvenience to neighbors.

Immie

If that was the problem the city would be free to make parking illegal and ticket the cars. The fact that they chose to require a permit for the meeting instead proves that the issue is something else.

I disagree with your assumption. This is typical city authority crap. They are told to get a permit. Then when they go to apply for the permit, they are denied based on certain reasons i.e. parking/fire hazards etc. They'll be told they have to get the Fire Marshall's approval. He'll tell them they have to get a waiver and extra insurance, then they will have to get approval from the police chief who will make some other excuse. In the long run, this will be an exercise in futility.

Like I said, typical city authority passing the buck.

Immie

 

[Quantum Windbag]

the neighbors have rights too.

Its not about whos in their home its about screwing up the lives of their neighbors with 40 cars on a bi weekly basis.

Just because they are Christains doesnt gove them the right to ruin the neighborhood and the housing prices of the other people who live there

Yes, they do. They have the right to make sure that any illegally parked cars are ticketed. They do not have the right to tell their neighbors they cannot have people over to their house.

 

[Wry Catcher]

OC Couple Threatened With $500-Per-Meeting Fines For Home Bible Study

MISSION VIEJO (CBS) — An Orange County couple has been ordered to stop holding a Bible study in their home on the grounds that the meeting violates a city ordinance as a “church” and not as a private gathering.

Homeowners Chuck and Stephanie Fromm, of San Juan Capistrano, were fined $300 earlier this month for holding what city officials called “a regular gathering of more than three people”.

That type of meeting would require a conditional use permit as defined by the city, according to Pacific Justice Institute (PJI), the couple’s legal representation.

The Fromms also reportedly face subsequent fines of $500 per meeting for any further “religious gatherings” in their home, according to PJI.

“We’re just gathering and enjoying each other’s company and fellowship. And we enjoy studying God’s word.” Stephanie Fromm told CBS2.

--

Neighbors have written letters to the city in support of the Fromms, whom they said have not caused any disturbances with the meetings, according to PJI.

“The Fromm case further involves regular meetings on Sunday mornings and Thursday afternoons with up to 50 people, with impacts on the residential neighborhood on street access and parking,” City Attorney Omar Sandoval said.​

Selective enforcement, perhaps?

It's Orange County people, the most conservative right wing county in California. It's the home of the John Birch Society, people, and Disneyland where a young man with hair too long was once denied admission by the happist place on earth.

What you see, and what you're all whinning about is what the rest of the country will be like if the New Right finishes its take over of the Republican Party and one day controls the agenda of the Congress and the White House as it already does of the Supreme Court.

 

[Uncensored2008]

If they were muslims you would not be defending this

You don't comprehend the concept of principles. You know that if these were Muslims, you would support them, so you ASSUME that conservatives would oppose them.

The constitution of the United States guarantees the right of people to assemble, thus I defend this right as a matter of principle. You view Muslims as seeking the end of the US Constitution and wanting to establish dictatorship under Sharia, so you support them because you agree with the aims of overthrowing constitutional government. For you, this isn't a matter of rights but only of sides.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If they were muslims you would not be defending this

If you are talking to me, I would be defending this. Unlike you I do not pick and chose who gets to have rights. The government does not have the right to tell anyone who they can have in their home, or require them to pay money for that right.

 

[syrenn]

So they should get special treatment because they are religious?


Note that while I don't agree with the punishment or even the law in the first place they should not be special in the law.

They are clearly causing a disruption on a weekly basis however.

If the people don't have a problem with it though I'm not sure why it should matter?

They should dispute it under the first amendment though.

How are they causing a disruption? Would it cause a disruption if a group of union members got together for a party once a week?

It may depend on where they live. I know that if my block was parked up on a regular basis for some idiot have meetings... i would be calling in and having them cited too.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Most residences are zone for residential parking.

All they need to do is get a permit. But they can't be bothered, instead they are whining. Pretty pathetic.

If the problem is parking how will a permit fix it? Since the problem has just been demonstrated not to be parking, why should they get a permit?

Where was it demonstrated not to be a parking issue? I think you made that claim, but I don't recall having read a post or a link that stated that this was not a parking issue.

The permit would not stop the parking problems. I would not be surprised to find out that the permit would be denied because of the parking issue.

Immie

It is actually a prima facie case that the issue is not parking. The city is not asking anyone to move their cars, they are trying to require a permit to hold the meetings in the house. Once they get a permit the guests will still be parking in the same place.

 

[Ravi]

I don't care if they are showing bi-weekly porno flicks with Palin and Rice....if the neighbors object, the neighbors object. One homeowner does not get to dictate what goes on in the neighborhood.

 

[boedicca]

I just love it when people who take a stand that the government should stay out of a woman' womb support the government controlling for whom, when and for what purpose a woman can hold private gatherings in her home.

 

[syrenn]

what these people dont realize is its likely a parking issue.

I do not give a fuck what they claim the issue is, the government does not have the authority to dictate what people can discuss inside their homes.

I don't give a fuck what they are meeting for either. Look closely...its about regular meetings of 3 or more people. They don't give a shit about what they are meeting about.

I would have issues with the cars and fucking up my life...

 

[boedicca]

So they should get special treatment because they are religious?


Note that while I don't agree with the punishment or even the law in the first place they should not be special in the law.

They are clearly causing a disruption on a weekly basis however.

If the people don't have a problem with it though I'm not sure why it should matter?

They should dispute it under the first amendment though.

How are they causing a disruption? Would it cause a disruption if a group of union members got together for a party once a week?

It may depend on where they live. I know that if my block was parked up on a regular basis for some idiot have meetings... i would be calling in and having them cited too.

And yet the neighbors so far have said they weren't bothered by this.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I am a Christian and have been to many weekly Home Bible Studies.

I have to say this, if this is a sub-division type of area and not something like Strollingbones described her "neighborhood" as then I have to agree with the county and the neighbors. Fifty people (maybe 30 cars?) twice a week every week is a bit much to ask your neighbors to put up with.

Can't they find a park or some kind of meeting room that won't be invasive of the neighborhood?

I respect their right to hold bible studies but there are times when one should consider the inconvenience to neighbors.

Immie

If that was the problem the city would be free to make parking illegal and ticket the cars. The fact that they chose to require a permit for the meeting instead proves that the issue is something else.

I disagree with your assumption. This is typical city authority crap. They are told to get a permit. Then when they go to apply for the permit, they are denied based on certain reasons i.e. parking/fire hazards etc. They'll be told they have to get the Fire Marshall's approval. He'll tell them they have to get a waiver and extra insurance, then they will have to get approval from the police chief who will make some other excuse. In the long run, this will be an exercise in futility.

Like I said, typical city authority passing the buck.

Immie

Which is why I say flat out the permit is unconstitutional.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

OC Couple Threatened With $500-Per-Meeting Fines For Home Bible Study

MISSION VIEJO (CBS) — An Orange County couple has been ordered to stop holding a Bible study in their home on the grounds that the meeting violates a city ordinance as a “church” and not as a private gathering.

Homeowners Chuck and Stephanie Fromm, of San Juan Capistrano, were fined $300 earlier this month for holding what city officials called “a regular gathering of more than three people”.

That type of meeting would require a conditional use permit as defined by the city, according to Pacific Justice Institute (PJI), the couple’s legal representation.

The Fromms also reportedly face subsequent fines of $500 per meeting for any further “religious gatherings” in their home, according to PJI.

“We’re just gathering and enjoying each other’s company and fellowship. And we enjoy studying God’s word.” Stephanie Fromm told CBS2.

--

Neighbors have written letters to the city in support of the Fromms, whom they said have not caused any disturbances with the meetings, according to PJI.

“The Fromm case further involves regular meetings on Sunday mornings and Thursday afternoons with up to 50 people, with impacts on the residential neighborhood on street access and parking,” City Attorney Omar Sandoval said.​

Selective enforcement, perhaps?

It's Orange County people, the most conservative right wing county in California. It's the home of the John Birch Society, people, and Disneyland where a young man with hair too long was once denied admission by the happist place on earth.

What you see, and what you're all whinning about is what the rest of the country will be like if the New Right finishes its take over of the Republican Party and one day controls the agenda of the Congress and the White House as it already does of the Supreme Court.

Does that mean we should not speak up? Or does you trying to blame one side, and not speaking up for people's rights, make you an idiot?