OC Couple Threatened With $500-Per-Meeting Fines For Home Bible Study

[Uncensored2008]

I'll ask you the same question. They go ahead and get the permit. What changes?

Maybe the permit is several thousand dollars a week?

 

[Ravi]

Yeah, if they are bi-weekly, involving lots of people, and someone in the neighborhood complains.

If you read the various articles on this, it turns out that one of the neighbors complained to the city, the city investigated and told the couple they needed to apply for a permit, the couple didn't bother to apply for a permit but kept on having their meetings and ended up getting fined.

IMO, the fault is with them and no one else.

Personal responsibility. It may be a bitch but it works.

What would work, exactly? They go ahead and pay the money for the permit, then what? What changes?

According to the law there, you have to get your neighbors to agree to allow the permit. They more than likely knew that all of their neighbors wouldn't agree and that is why they didn't bother applying for the permit.

 

[Uncensored2008]

I don't know that it matters why someone objected to the gatherings, just that they did. I hope you aren't going to tell me that no one should be allowed to complain about this type of activity if it involves religion.

As a good fascist, if these were bi-weekly meetings to pray to Obama, would you support them being mandatory?

The city is violating the 1st and 14th Amendments. Where is the ACLU?

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

Yeah, if they are bi-weekly, involving lots of people, and someone in the neighborhood complains.

If you read the various articles on this, it turns out that one of the neighbors complained to the city, the city investigated and told the couple they needed to apply for a permit, the couple didn't bother to apply for a permit but kept on having their meetings and ended up getting fined.

IMO, the fault is with them and no one else.

Personal responsibility. It may be a bitch but it works.

What would work, exactly? They go ahead and pay the money for the permit, then what? What changes?

According to the law there, you have to get your neighbors to agree to allow the permit. They more than likely knew that all of their neighbors wouldn't agree and that is why they didn't bother applying for the permit.

You say "more than likely." Where do you get the idea it's "more than likely" the neighbors wouldn't agree when the article states that the neighbors seem to be fairly supportive of what they're doing?

Neighbors have written letters to the city in support of the Fromms, whom they said have not caused any disturbances with the meetings, according to PJI.

And you didn't answer my question. If they get the permit, what changes?

 

[syrenn]

OC Couple Threatened With $500-Per-Meeting Fines For Home Bible Study

MISSION VIEJO (CBS) — An Orange County couple has been ordered to stop holding a Bible study in their home on the grounds that the meeting violates a city ordinance as a “church” and not as a private gathering.

Homeowners Chuck and Stephanie Fromm, of San Juan Capistrano, were fined $300 earlier this month for holding what city officials called “a regular gathering of more than three people”.

That type of meeting would require a conditional use permit as defined by the city, according to Pacific Justice Institute (PJI), the couple’s legal representation.

The Fromms also reportedly face subsequent fines of $500 per meeting for any further “religious gatherings” in their home, according to PJI.

“We’re just gathering and enjoying each other’s company and fellowship. And we enjoy studying God’s word.” Stephanie Fromm told CBS2.

--

Neighbors have written letters to the city in support of the Fromms, whom they said have not caused any disturbances with the meetings, according to PJI.

“The Fromm case further involves regular meetings on Sunday mornings and Thursday afternoons with up to 50 people, with impacts on the residential neighborhood on street access and parking,” City Attorney Omar Sandoval said.​

Selective enforcement, perhaps?

Just another way for the city to make money.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

did you know that Orange country is a HUGE republican area?

Does that make it OK for the government to tell people who they can have in their home?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

So they should get special treatment because they are religious?


Note that while I don't agree with the punishment or even the law in the first place they should not be special in the law.

They are clearly causing a disruption on a weekly basis however.

If the people don't have a problem with it though I'm not sure why it should matter?

They should dispute it under the first amendment though.

How are they causing a disruption? Would it cause a disruption if a group of union members got together for a party once a week?

 

[Truthmatters]

the neighbors have rights too.

Its not about whos in their home its about screwing up the lives of their neighbors with 40 cars on a bi weekly basis.

Just because they are Christains doesnt gove them the right to ruin the neighborhood and the housing prices of the other people who live there

 

[Quantum Windbag]

what these people dont realize is its likely a parking issue.

I do not give a fuck what they claim the issue is, the government does not have the authority to dictate what people can discuss inside their homes.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Does that make it OK for the government to tell people who they can have in their home?

Orange County went to Obama in 2008.

It USED to be Republican.

 

[Truthmatters]

these laws were made by the people in the community.

They were made to keep neighbors from messing up the neighborhoods for others.


This high volume of traffic causes the neighbors problems.

If they were Muslim you would not be on the side you are taking now

 

[Ravi]

What would work, exactly? They go ahead and pay the money for the permit, then what? What changes?

According to the law there, you have to get your neighbors to agree to allow the permit. They more than likely knew that all of their neighbors wouldn't agree and that is why they didn't bother applying for the permit.

You say "more than likely." Where do you get the idea it's "more than likely" the neighbors wouldn't agree when the article states that the neighbors seem to be fairly supportive of what they're doing?

Neighbors have written letters to the city in support of the Fromms, whom they said have not caused any disturbances with the meetings, according to PJI.

And you didn't answer my question. If they get the permit, what changes?

The article I linked later in the thread than the OP shows that someone did complain.

What changes is that they either have the agreement of the neighbors to hold potentially disrupting meetings or they don't. Neighbors have a vested interest in what happens in their neighborhood.

 

[Uncensored2008]

these laws were made by the people in the community.

They were made to keep neighbors from messing up the neighborhoods for others.


This high volume of traffic causes the neighbors problems.

If they were Muslim you would not be on the side you are taking now

If they were Muslim, you and Ravi would be DEMANDING that their rights be protected.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

“The Fromm case further involves regular meetings on Sunday mornings and Thursday afternoons with up to 50 people, with impacts on the residential neighborhood on street access and parking,” City Attorney Omar Sandoval said.

I was right

No, you were wrong, they are trying to clean it up because they know it will fail in court.

City officials in San Juan Capistrano, Calif. say Chuck and Stephanie Fromm are in violation of municipal code 9-3.301, which prohibits “religious, fraternal or non-profit” organizations in residential neighborhoods without a permit. Stephanie hosts a Wednesday Bible study that draws about 20 attendees, and Chuck holds a Sunday service that gets about 50.

Calif. City Fines Couple for Holding Bible Study in Their Home | TheBlaze.com

That is clearly a restriction based on the content of the speech, and the parking issue is a smoke screen.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

if your neighbor was having 50 people over two days a week I think you would see the problem

I wouldn't because I might decide I want to do the same thing. If it was really a parking issue the police would put tickets on the cars that were illegally parked. The fact that they are trying to shut down the meeting proves the issue is free speech, not parking. If you were honest you would support them and condemn the law.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

So they should get special treatment because they are religious?


Note that while I don't agree with the punishment or even the law in the first place they should not be special in the law.

So you'd be OK if your regular poker night with the guys in your basement was subject to government intervention?

Fucking hell where did you extrapolate that from?

Please read my post before responding to it.

I don't know where he got it, but I got it from your idiot claim that they should get special treatment because of their religion.

 

[Truthmatters]

If they were muslims you would not be defending this

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Entitlement junkies.

All they need to do is get a permit, but of course they are too good for that.

Who cares about states rights?

Why should they need a permit for something they are doing in their own house? Should the city be able to require you to get a permit to have meetings about political causes, because the ordinance covers that. What if you were organizing a petition to make the city provide more money for libraries and schools but they would not give you a permit? Would that be permissible or do you think it should only apply to things you do not like?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It likely aready is

Why aren't they putting tickets on the cars that are illegally parked then? How would them getting a permit solve the parking issue? Would the cars suddenly start floating above the street if they get a permit for the meeting?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Those neighbors pay the same money for that street and would like to use it too.

Then get the street designated as residential parking only. Problem solved.

Most residences are zone for residential parking.

All they need to do is get a permit. But they can't be bothered, instead they are whining. Pretty pathetic.

If the problem is parking how will a permit fix it? Since the problem has just been demonstrated not to be parking, why should they get a permit?