Obama's 95% Illusion

[DavidS]

Since Jillian won't answer, I'll ask you: Is giving money to people a tax cut?

No, but if you look here, you'll see the actual tax cut Obama is giving us.

Obama and McCain Tax Proposals - washingtonpost.com

5.5% tax cut for people making up to $18,600
3.6% tax cut for people making up to $37,500
1.8% tax cut for people making up to $112,000
2.1% tax cut for people making up to $161,000
1.9% tax cut for people making up to $256,000

Those are tax cuts.

An economic stimulus package, in the form of tax rebates, are giving people money... those aren't tax cuts.

 

[Missourian]

​

This is somewhat off the topic of taxes but I wonder if any of you really understand the enormity of the problem we face. We are a consumer based economy. Because of credit and the instant gratification society we have become, our economy is broken beyond repair:

Modern society, as we know all too well, is overrun with both borrowers and lenders. But just how big is the typical family's debt? How fast is it growing? How does your mortgage compare to the Joneses next door? And how might consumer debt -- your debt -- affect the U.S. economy?

We decided to look at the most recent numbers and take a snapshot of household debt in the United States, circa 2004. What emerges is a picture that's both familiar and unsettling. Yes, consumer debt -- encompassing credit cards, mortgages, student loans and more -- is growing like a well-fed St. Bernard puppy. No, there's no sign that the growth will slow. Yes, some economists worry about the ill effects, but no, not many of them are sounding urgent alarms.
It's hard not to be worried when confronted with numbers such as these:

About 43% of American families spend more than they earn each year.

Average households carry some $8,000 in credit card debt.

Personal bankruptcies have doubled in the past decade.

It's not clear exactly where the debt trend will take U.S. consumers or the U.S. economy. But it is clear that both are sailing in uncharted waters. LINK to MSNBC article

Before this gets partisan, this article presents details from 2004, encompasing both Clinton and Bush presidencies.


Our economy as we know it cannot continue. It has only grown by feeding on consumer debt. Eventually we must return to the "save to buy" model and pay our creditors, both individually and as a country. When we do, our economic engine will either endure a contration or fail. What we are seeing now in the morgage credit market is just the tip of the iceburg, and our economy is the Titanic.

We all dance now, but when the music stops someone has to pay the band.

 

[The Paperboy]

No, but if you look here, you'll see the actual tax cut Obama is giving us.

Obama and McCain Tax Proposals - washingtonpost.com

5.5% tax cut for people making up to $18,600
3.6% tax cut for people making up to $37,500
1.8% tax cut for people making up to $112,000
2.1% tax cut for people making up to $161,000
1.9% tax cut for people making up to $256,000

Those are tax cuts.

An economic stimulus package, in the form of tax rebates, are giving people money... those aren't tax cuts.

Read the fine print. You are being duped. Most of these "tax cuts" are government handouts.

If you don't believe me then please let me know what the tax rates are not the "tax cuts".

Obama is a smooth talking snake oil salesmen selling the American people a bogus bill of goods.

 

[DavidS]

Read the fine print. You are being duped. Most of these "tax cuts" are government handouts.

If you don't believe me then please let me know what the tax rates are not the "tax cuts".

Why do I do have to do the homework for you? Look at our current tax rates. Then look at the % rates Obama will cut our taxes by. That's the new tax rate for us middle class folks.

I would really fear you and Chris have a debate one day... it would be the most frustrating thing on this planet to watch.

"Paperboy: McCain will win the election, just look at this obviously biased Republican Poll which samples all Republicans!"
"Chris: Obama will win the election, just look at this liberal poll which samples only black liberals"

This is the reason G-d invented shotguns.

 

[The Paperboy]

Why do I do have to do the homework for you? Look at our current tax rates. Then look at the % rates Obama will cut our taxes by. That's the new tax rate for us middle class folks.

I would really fear you and Chris have a debate one day... it would be the most frustrating thing on this planet to watch.

"Paperboy: McCain will win the election, just look at this obviously biased Republican Poll which samples all Republicans!"
"Chris: Obama will win the election, just look at this liberal poll which samples only black liberals"

This is the reason G-d invented shotguns.

You seem very well informed so tell me:

What is your current tax rate?

What will your tax rate be under Obama?

How is it figured?

 

[DavidS]

You seem very well informed so tell me:

What is your current tax rate?

25%. Keep in mind I also pay state and city taxes. I am taxed on my net profit.

What will your tax rate be under Obama?

22.6% without all of his deductions. With all of the deductions, I may actually pay around 15%. You have no idea how much money that's going to save me... I'm taxed to death right now.

How is it figured?

Obama will lower the 25% tax bracket to 22.6%. He then gives a littany of new tax credits that Bush nor McCain offer. With all of the tax credits, I may go down into the 15% bracket, which will be lowered 3.6% to 11.4%. So under McCain, who offers no tax credits, I would be paying almost 10% more in taxes than I would under Obama. Believe me, I am quite middle class. All of us would be paying less taxes. If I pay less money in taxes, I can spend more money. I'll go out more, which I really want to do. That will support other small businssses.

Multiply me by 95% of the country.

The economy will recover much quicker under Obama's plan.

 

[The Paperboy]

25%. Keep in mind I also pay state and city taxes. I am taxed on my net profit.



22.6% without all of his deductions. With all of the deductions, I may actually pay around 15%. You have no idea how much money that's going to save me... I'm taxed to death right now.



Obama will lower the 25% tax bracket to 22.6%. He then gives a littany of new tax credits that Bush nor McCain offer. With all of the tax credits, I may go down into the 15% bracket, which will be lowered 3.6% to 11.4%. So under McCain, who offers no tax credits, I would be paying almost 10% more in taxes than I would under Obama. Believe me, I am quite middle class. All of us would be paying less taxes. If I pay less money in taxes, I can spend more money. I'll go out more, which I really want to do. That will support other small businssses.

Multiply me by 95% of the country.

The economy will recover much quicker under Obama's plan.

So Obama lowers your tax rate 2.4%. Fair enough I will take your word for it.

Now about those "tax credits". That's a fancy term for "government handout". You will be given money by the government. That money has to come from somewhere. That is exactly what Obama meant when he said he was going to "spread the wealth".

Now these "tax credits" will cost close to one trillion dollars.

Obama doesn't say how he will pay for it. And the amount that he wants to increases taxes on the "rich" won't cover it.

So where will it come from? The middle class of course.

You really think he's not going to stick it to you while also writing checks to the 40% of people who don't even pay taxes???

You're being duped. Good luck to you. Nothing is free.

 

[DavidS]

Now about those "tax credits". That's a fancy term for "government handout".

Uh, who does your accounting Paperboy? We already have tax credits. Ronald Reagan was the first one to invent them and give them to us. You automatically get a $4200 tax credit for being a US citizen. Have a child? Bush doubled the tax credit for having children to $1000. John McCain is offering a tax credit to help buy health insurance. What he doesn't tell you is that he's going to tax your paycheck if you have health insurance. So you get your paycheck, right?

Let's say you earn the average salary of $44,603.

Obama and McCain both want to increase already existing tax credits and some new ones. You already have a child tax credit of $1000 per child thanks to Bush and McCain gives us a $3000 tax credit for helath insurance. For the year, you've paid $10,838.53 in taxes (24.3% income tax).

$5000 comes off of your gross revenue and now your gross revenue is $39,603. Under McCain, you'll pay 24.3% income tax. The amount of money you'll pay in taxes is $10,838.53.

Under Obama, you pay an income tax of 22.6% for your salary. So you've paid $10,080.29 in taxes. That's already $758.24 less than McCain.

That $758 is money people can spend on restaraunts, clothes, books... multiply that $758.24 by 65 million people who earn that salary on average and the people who spend the most money will stimulate the economy.

Now, if you want to talk about tax credits... let's compare Obama's and McCain's tax credits.

Obama increases the child credit to $1100. He offers a mortgage tax credit of $500 and an additional $500 if you have a job. So that's $3200 in tax credits if you have two children.

McCain increases the child tax credit to $1500 per child. He offers a health insurance tax credit for $5000. His tax credits come out to $8000.

If you're going to chastize someone for spending too much, chastize McCain. He's lowering taxes on everyone - even the people that pay the most.

Do the math, if you have less income and more expenses....????

 

[The Paperboy]

Uh, who does your accounting Paperboy? We already have tax credits. Ronald Reagan was the first one to invent them and give them to us. You automatically get a $4200 tax credit for being a US citizen. Have a child? Bush doubled the tax credit for having children to $1000. John McCain is offering a tax credit to help buy health insurance. What he doesn't tell you is that he's going to tax your paycheck if you have health insurance. So you get your paycheck, right?

Let's say you earn the average salary of $44,603.

Obama and McCain both want to increase already existing tax credits and some new ones. You already have a child tax credit of $1000 per child thanks to Bush and McCain gives us a $3000 tax credit for helath insurance. For the year, you've paid $10,838.53 in taxes (24.3% income tax).

$5000 comes off of your gross revenue and now your gross revenue is $39,603. Under McCain, you'll pay 24.3% income tax. The amount of money you'll pay in taxes is $10,838.53.

Under Obama, you pay an income tax of 22.6% for your salary. So you've paid $10,080.29 in taxes. That's already $758.24 less than McCain.

That $758 is money people can spend on restaraunts, clothes, books... multiply that $758.24 by 65 million people who earn that salary on average and the people who spend the most money will stimulate the economy.

Now, if you want to talk about tax credits... let's compare Obama's and McCain's tax credits.

Obama increases the child credit to $1100. He offers a mortgage tax credit of $500 and an additional $500 if you have a job. So that's $3200 in tax credits if you have two children.

McCain increases the child tax credit to $1500 per child. He offers a health insurance tax credit for $5000. His tax credits come out to $8000.

If you're going to chastize someone for spending too much, chastize McCain. He's lowering taxes on everyone - even the people that pay the most.

Do the math, if you have less income and more expenses....????

One trillion in new tax credits disguised as "tax cuts". And you think the "rich" will pay for them. As P.T. Barnum said, "There's a sucker born every second".

 

[jreeves]

Fibbie fibbie... it was under Clinton.

Reagan had to raise taxes because he was going to slide into a recession. Largest tax increase in history, if I recall correctly. ;o)
And there's no such thing as trickle down voodoo economics. Haven't you figured that out after what your boys have done over the last two terms?

Sheesh. Even white rats learn.

Actually the net of Reagan's tax policies was a decrease in taxes paid.....

 

[jschuck12001]

From Wall Street Journal:

One of Barack Obama's most potent campaign claims is that he'll cut taxes for no less than 95% of "working families." He's even promising to cut taxes enough that the government's tax share of GDP will be no more than 18.2% -- which is lower than it is today.

It's a clever pitch, because it lets him pose as a middle-class tax cutter while disguising that he's also proposing one of the largest tax increases ever on the other 5%. But how does he conjure this miracle, especially since more than a third of all Americans already pay no income taxes at all? There are several sleights of hand, but the most creative is to redefine the meaning of "tax cut."

For the Obama Democrats, a tax cut is no longer letting you keep more of what you earn. In their lexicon, a tax cut includes tens of billions of dollars in government handouts that are disguised by the phrase "tax credit."

Full story here

Yep, John Mccain says he is cutting taxes by giving that $5000 tax credit, they both do it, whats your point.

 

[jschuck12001]

Actually the net of Reagan's tax policies was a decrease in taxes paid.....

Regan was horrible, he almost put my dad out of business with the luxury tax. It wasnt until Clinton was in office that he got back on track and then sold it. Regan was really over rated.

 

[jreeves]

Regan was horrible, he almost put my dad out of business with the luxury tax. It wasnt until Clinton was in office that he got back on track and then sold it. Regan was really over rated.

I was responding specifically to Jill's comment that Reagan increased taxes. He reduced taxes overall.....

 

[DavidS]

One trillion in new tax credits disguised as "tax cuts". And you think the "rich" will pay for them. As P.T. Barnum said, "There's a sucker born every second".

Paperboy, did you not read what I said? John McCain is offering double the amount of tax credits than Obama is! John McCain is offering a family of four $6000 in tax credits! Come on!

Want proof? Go to John McCain's own website!

 

[The Paperboy]

Paperboy, did you not read what I said? John McCain is offering double the amount of tax credits than Obama is! John McCain is offering a family of four $6000 in tax credits! Come on!

Want proof? Go to John McCain's own website!

Is John McCain offering "tax cuts" to those who don't pay any tax to begin with?

Is John McCain offering an additional one trillion in new spending?

 

[editec]

Is John McCain offering "tax cuts" to those who don't pay any tax to begin with?

No

Is John McCain offering an additional one trillion in new spending?

Probably. His tax cuts are spending, dude.

And as we have seen, giving the superwealthy additionally money does this nation absolutely no good.

 

[jreeves]

Yep, John Mccain says he is cutting taxes by giving that $5000 tax credit, they both do it, whats your point.

The $5000 tax credit is specifically designed to help all American families afford health care.

 

[DavidS]

Is John McCain offering "tax cuts" to those who don't pay any tax to begin with?

Paperboy, everyone pays taxes if you get a paycheck. EVERYONE pays taxes. These people who are saying that you don't pay taxes, are idiots. Corporations, due to all of the tax credits that Republicans have given us, don't pay taxes all of the time. But normal, average working Americans, even if you get $100 a week, you pay taxes.

This whole notion of not paying taxes comes from this:

I make $35,000. I pay 25% income tax from my paycheck. My net revenue is $26,250. I've paid $8,750 in taxes. End of the year I have $3000 in tax credits thanks to Bush. So, the $3000 comes off of the gross revenue so I've only really made $32,000. That means the amount I should've paid in taxes was $8000 and I get a tax refund of $750. John McCain wants to double the amount of tax credits people get... which is kind of insane.

Is John McCain offering an additional one trillion in new spending?

John McCain's spending is absolutely out of control and he's lowering the income that the country would receive.

 

[DavidS]

The $5000 tax credit is specifically designed to help all American families afford health care.

$5000 won't buy a family of 3 healthcare. But you see, the really tricky part of that is, is that it's designed as a tax credit.

So if I make $75,000 a year and I have two children, health insurance costs about $2000 a month. So I've paid $24,000 in health insurance costs, not withstanding any doctors visits.

Under John McCain, I pay 23.6% income tax. So I've paid $17,700 in taxes. At the end of the year, I get a $5000 tax credit, plus $3000 in child credits. So that's $8000. So now I've paid $15,812 in taxes which means the actual money I get back to pay for my healthcare is a whopping $1,888.

It's completely ridiculous.

Obama is going to lower my tax bracket to 23.2% income tax and offer me government health insurance at a much cheaper rate. So, under Obama I pay $17,400 in taxes, but only $12,000 a year in health insurance. Tax credits of $3200 combined, and I'm only paying $16,657.60 in income taxes which gives me a refund of $742.40. Smaller, yes, but I've saved a difference of $10,854.40. That's a HUGE chunk of change that I can either invest in the stock market and pay capital gains taxes on, or spend on the economy thus stimulating the economy.

 

[The Paperboy]

$5000 won't buy a family of 3 healthcare. But you see, the really tricky part of that is, is that it's designed as a tax credit.

So if I make $75,000 a year and I have two children, health insurance costs about $2000 a month. So I've paid $24,000 in health insurance costs, not withstanding any doctors visits.

Under John McCain, I pay 23.6% income tax. So I've paid $17,700 in taxes. At the end of the year, I get a $5000 tax credit, plus $3000 in child credits. So that's $8000. So now I've paid $15,812 in taxes which means the actual money I get back to pay for my healthcare is a whopping $1,888.

It's completely ridiculous.

Obama is going to lower my tax bracket to 23.2% income tax and offer me government health insurance at a much cheaper rate. So, under Obama I pay $17,400 in taxes, but only $12,000 a year in health insurance. Tax credits of $3200 combined, and I'm only paying $16,657.60 in income taxes which gives me a refund of $742.40. Smaller, yes, but I've saved a difference of $10,854.40. That's a HUGE chunk of change that I can either invest in the stock market and pay capital gains taxes on, or spend on the economy thus stimulating the economy.

Go back and read the original article that began this thread. Specifically the following:

The Tax Foundation estimates that under the Obama plan 63 million Americans, or 44% of all tax filers, would have no income tax liability and most of those would get a check from the IRS each year. The Heritage Foundation's Center for Data Analysis estimates that by 2011, under the Obama plan, an additional 10 million filers would pay zero taxes while cashing checks from the IRS.

Obama's "tax cut" is really Obama's "Welfare Program". That he says these people are getting tax cuts demonstrates that he is nothing more than a smooth talking, snake oil selling, charlatan.

Obama will bring back "Welfare as we use to know it". Makes me long for the good old Clinton days.

And the joke is that you will eventually pay for it.