Obama Will Observe Confederate Memorial Tradition

Slavery is as much a part of the legacy of the founding of the United States as it was the founding of the Confederate States, and if we're going to down the Confederates for practicing slavery we must also down the Union for practicing slavery as well.

It's of course true that slavery is misidentified as the exclusive reason for secession, rather than one among several reasons. But it's also a reality that slavery was not a central point of dispute in the American Revolution, as it was in the Civil War.

Your second point is lost on me, I never said they weren't Americans. DavidS brought up that those who died fighting for the Confederacy were not Americans.

It would be more accurate to say that they did not identify as U.S. citizens. Their nation still constituted an American political entity, but then again, so do numerous other nations.
 
Slavery is as much a part of the legacy of the founding of the United States as it was the founding of the Confederate States, and if we're going to down the Confederates for practicing slavery we must also down the Union for practicing slavery as well.

It's of course true that slavery is misidentified as the exclusive reason for secession, rather than one among several reasons. But it's also a reality that slavery was not a central point of dispute in the American Revolution, as it was in the Civil War.

Your second point is lost on me, I never said they weren't Americans. DavidS brought up that those who died fighting for the Confederacy were not Americans.

It would be more accurate to say that they did not identify as U.S. citizens. Their nation still constituted an American political entity, but then again, so do numerous other nations.

No, slavery wasn't necessarily a dispute during the American Revolution, though British troops did offer slaves their freedom to fight against the Americans. However, I doubt that's much consolation to those who were held as slaves during the founding of the United States.
 
No, slavery wasn't necessarily a dispute during the American Revolution, though British troops did offer slaves their freedom to fight against the Americans. However, I doubt that's much consolation to those who were held as slaves during the founding of the United States.

I didn't claim it was. I merely claimed that it wasn't a central point of their legacy, and there was thus no equivalent symbolic status.
 
No, slavery wasn't necessarily a dispute during the American Revolution, though British troops did offer slaves their freedom to fight against the Americans. However, I doubt that's much consolation to those who were held as slaves during the founding of the United States.

I didn't claim it was. I merely claimed that it wasn't a central point of their legacy, and there was thus no equivalent symbolic status.

It remains hypocritical to condemn the Confederacy for practicing slavery, and not to condemn the United States for the same.
 
It remains hypocritical to condemn the Confederacy for practicing slavery, and not to condemn the United States for the same.

Not necessarily. We could point to slavery of greater intensity and extent in the Confederacy, as well as the deeper connection it had to Southern heritage.

Maybe we could point to that, however, I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't pick and choose which slavery we condemn and which we shouldn't. If you're going to condemn the Confederacy you have to condemn the United States as well.
 
Maybe we could point to that, however, I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't pick and choose which slavery we condemn and which we shouldn't.

It's simply a reality that some forms of slavery were more inhumane and widely established than others.

If you're going to condemn the Confederacy you have to condemn the United States as well.

Not so, considering the aforementioned worse elements of slavery in the South and the unique connection of slavery to Southern heritage. Or do you hear people singing "Dixie" in Minnesota? Do you hear about stories like this in North Dakota?
 
Maybe we could point to that, however, I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't pick and choose which slavery we condemn and which we shouldn't.

It's simply a reality that some forms of slavery were more inhumane and widely established than others.

If you're going to condemn the Confederacy you have to condemn the United States as well.

Not so, considering the aforementioned worse elements of slavery in the South and the unique connection of slavery to Southern heritage. Or do you hear people singing "Dixie" in Minnesota? Do you hear about stories like this in North Dakota?

I'm sure there were terrible slave-owners in the north just as there were in the south, just as there were probably relatively decent slave-owners in the north just as in the south. Regardless, you can't pick and choose which slavery you wish to condemn because slavery is evil no matter what the circumstances of it are.
 
I'm sure there were terrible slave-owners in the north just as there were in the south, just as there were probably relatively decent slave-owners in the north just as in the south. Regardless, you can't pick and choose which slavery you wish to condemn because slavery is evil no matter what the circumstances of it are.

That's an overly crude deontologist perspective. A consquentialist would note otherwise, considering that some forms of slavery inflicted worse forms of suffering than others. And the political climate of the South was able to facilitate many more a Simon Legree than a George Shelby, a reality often enshrined in formal legal policy.
 
I'm sure there were terrible slave-owners in the north just as there were in the south, just as there were probably relatively decent slave-owners in the north just as in the south. Regardless, you can't pick and choose which slavery you wish to condemn because slavery is evil no matter what the circumstances of it are.

That's an overly crude deontologist perspective. A consquentialist would note otherwise, considering that some forms of slavery inflicted worse forms of suffering than others. And the political climate of the South was able to facilitate many more a Simon Legree than a George Shelby, a reality often enshrined in formal legal policy.

I've already acknowledged that the conditions for some slaves was worse than others, I doubt, however, that it was based on geographical criteria as opposed to the nature of the slave-owner. At any rate, I still hold that it's hypocritical to condemn some slavery and not others.
 
I've already acknowledged that the conditions for some slaves was worse than others, I doubt, however, that it was based on geographical criteria as opposed to the nature of the slave-owner.

And there was often an absence in laws preventing excessive cruelty to slaves in the South, or an absence of regulation and enforcement of such laws where they did exist. The agrarian nature of the South as opposed to the industrial nature of the North also played a critical role in the variety of work that slaves were forced to do.

At any rate, I still hold that it's hypocritical to condemn some slavery and not others.

It seems more logically sound to make individual ethical judgments based on individual circumstances and consequences, rather than broadly declare every element of a certain category akin.
 
I've already acknowledged that the conditions for some slaves was worse than others, I doubt, however, that it was based on geographical criteria as opposed to the nature of the slave-owner.

And there was often an absence in laws preventing excessive cruelty to slaves in the South, or an absence of regulation and enforcement of such laws where they did exist. The agrarian nature of the South as opposed to the industrial nature of the North also played a critical role in the variety of work that slaves were forced to do.

At any rate, I still hold that it's hypocritical to condemn some slavery and not others.

It seems more logically sound to make individual ethical judgments based on individual circumstances and consequences, rather than broadly declare every element of a certain category akin.

No, I think I'm pretty safe in stating that all slavery was evil.
 

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