The fascists on the right frown on thought that differs from the corporate spew.
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Obama Wealth Video: Nearly Half Million Plays Since Release This Morning
- Thread starter The Paperboy
- Start date
The fascists on the right frown on thought that differs from the corporate spew.
Truth is subjective as long as we are free to think for ourselves.
I respectfully disagree with this statement.
The truth is the truth, regardless of subjectivity.
I am free to think I can breathe water at the bottom of the ocean...
but the truth is, I would die trying.
You may think Senator Obama doesn't have Socialist leanings...
but the truth speaks for itself.
Marx: Religion is the opium of the masses
Obama: People cling to their religion because they're bitter
Marx: Capital is dead labor, which, vampire-like, lives only by sucking living labor, and lives the more, the more labor it sucks.
Marx: Society does not consist of individuals but expresses the sum of interrelations, the relations within which these individuals stand.
Obama: Focusing your life solely on making a buck shows a certain poverty of ambition. It asks too little of yourself. Because it's only when you hitch your wagon to something larger than yourself that you realize your true potential.
Obama: Spread the wealth.
Marx: From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs.
Obama: This is the moment when we must build on the wealth that open markets have created, and share its benefits more equitably.
Marx: Democracy is the road to socialism.
Obama: I am not a Socialist.
Marx: I am not a Marxist.
Link 1
Link 2
Browse these links and see what other corollaries crop up.
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I respectfully disagree with this statement.
The truth is the truth, regardless of subjectivity.
Huh, I respectfully think that is a large pile of BS.
"Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth, and every other man has a right to knock him down for it." Samuel Johnson
>
Huh, I respectfully think that is a large pile of BS.
"Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth, and every other man has a right to knock him down for it." Samuel Johnson
>
Good luck with that at the bottom of the ocean...take deep, cleansing breaths. Maybe Sam can join you ?
I respectfully disagree with this statement.
The truth is the truth, regardless of subjectivity.
I am free to think I can breathe water at the bottom of the ocean...
but the truth is, I would die trying.
You may think Senator Obama doesn't have Socialist leanings...
but the truth speaks for itself.
Marx: Religion is the opium of the masses
Obama: People cling to their religion because they're bitter
Marx: Capital is dead labor, which, vampire-like, lives only by sucking living labor, and lives the more, the more labor it sucks.
Marx: Society does not consist of individuals but expresses the sum of interrelations, the relations within which these individuals stand.
Obama: Focusing your life solely on making a buck shows a certain poverty of ambition. It asks too little of yourself. Because it's only when you hitch your wagon to something larger than yourself that you realize your true potential.
Obama: Spread the wealth.
Marx: From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs.
Obama: This is the moment when we must build on the wealth that open markets have created, and share its benefits more equitably.
Marx: Democracy is the road to socialism.
Obama: I am not a Socialist.
Marx: I am not a Marxist.
Link 1
Link 2
Browse these links and see what other corollaries crop up.
I'm sure a lot of corollaries will pop up when you purposefully misinterpret what Obama has said.
Funny how Obama can be anti-religion at the same time as belonging to a radical Christian church AND be a Muslim. Hes so religious he has two of them!
Funny how Obama can be anti-religion at the same time as belonging to a radical Christian church AND be a Muslim. Hes so religious he has two of them!
Yeah, that is strange, isn't it.
You'll have to take that up with Senator Obama.
Here is the direct quote:
" It's not surprising, then, they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."
Hard to "misinterpret" that statement. But you can try.
.
Last edited:
DavidS
Anti-Tea Party Member
I respectfully disagree with this statement.
The truth is the truth, regardless of subjectivity.
That is an absolute. The only absolute that exists is that there are no absolutes.
The definition of truth is our observance of events. If we fail to observe correctly, we fail to see the truth. Reality is based upon perception. If we cannot precieve correctly, how are we to understand reality, if reality even exists?
This is a classic case of absolutism vs. existentialism and is the core definition of the difference between conservatives and liberals. A debate that has been had for thousands of years and will hopefully continue for thousands of years beyond this.
Yeah, that is strange, isn't it.
You'll have to take that up with Senator Obama.
Actually I think I'll take it up with the people who are falsely asserting that he is all of those things.
Here is the direct quote:
" It's not surprising, then, they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."
As a way to explain their frustrations. You can cling to guns and religions for stupid reasons. Just as you can be an atheist or liberal for stupid reasons.
Actually I think I'll take it up with the people who are falsely asserting that he is all of those things.
As a way to explain their frustrations. You can cling to guns and religions for stupid reasons. Just as you can be an atheist or liberal for stupid reasons.
You'll have to explain to me how clinging to ones religion explains their fruustrations.
Conversely, how can not clinging to ones religion relieve frustrations.
"I'm bitter, so I cling to my religion to explain my frustrations ?"
Sure. Gotcha. Next?
That is an absolute. The only absolute that exists is that there are no absolutes.
The definition of truth is our observance of events. If we fail to observe correctly, we fail to see the truth. Reality is based upon perception. If we cannot precieve correctly, how are we to understand reality, if reality even exists?
This is a classic case of absolutism vs. existentialism and is the core definition of the difference between conservatives and liberals. A debate that has been had for thousands of years and will hopefully continue for thousands of years beyond this.
If it's okay with you, we'll save this discussion for the "Philosophy Forum".
In 10 posts, no one has argued Senator Obama doesn't have Socialist leanings.
Andrew2382
Gold Member
- Oct 1, 2008
- 3,994
- 551
- 153
No they can't...the only arguements is that people apprently want us to go froma capitalistic country to a socialistic one.
Yup socialism works great
I mean, Venezuela is doing wonderfully...they are flat broke
Sweden?
The beautiful nation of Sweden has the highest standard of living in the world. Its blossoming industry ranks far higher than the United States in most measurements. Life in Socialist Sweden is free of homeless, reckless, crazy people and full of well adjusted churchgoing citizens. In spite of the 55% income tax, Sweden has a history of strong family values, the most progressive education system in the world and extremely low unemployment.
Sweden boasts a new Third Way between Capitalism and Socialism, making it a great example of new age Collectivism. It's superior unionization and strong economy will ensure that it will be a Socialistic success story for years to come.
If you say Sweden, I say "Socialism WORKS!"
But does it really work?
the highest standard of living:
Sweden's most affront claim, that it has the world's highest standard of living, is often based on the measure of equality in wealth redistribution, and not on the status of the national economy, the buying power of the Swedish crown (Krona), the amount of people working for productive aims or creating innovations, nor it's Gross National Product. Claims based on these other properties of the Swedish economy, in support of their "highest standard of living" claim, are mysteriously non-existent.
blossoming industry:
Sweden is a great place to start a new business - if you don't plan on being successful. A more lax economic policy in the '90s has increased new startups by 25%, but the economic attitude towards business hasn't changed much since the '70s, where entrepreneurs were treated like pariahs. Ikea founder Ingvar Kamprad told Forbes magazine that the Swedish tax bureaucrats would frequently accuse him of using people and "only wanting profits".
ranks far higher than the United States in most measurements:
The Swedish Institute of Trade reported in 2002 that "the median household income in Sweden at the end of the 1990s was the equivalent of $26,800, compared with a median of $39,400 for U.S. households". If Sweden were introduced to the U.S. as a new state, it would rank as the poorest according to these standards. This is in light of the fact that these numbers are gross values - before taxes - and Sweden has the highest taxes in the world. The same report also shows that Swedes fare lower than the lowest American socio-economic class, working-class black males.
free of homeless, reckless, crazy people:
The unfortunate in Sweden often don't roam the streets aimlessly, in fact, few are often found. That's because the state subsidizes them to live in optimal conditions and to provide little work - and if they are put into labor, it's in a public enterprise run by the government, to help reduce the official share of unemployed people. Workers can earn up to 570 paid days off a year (that's no typo - we know there are only 365 days a year - Swedes can earn more paid days off than days they actually work). So where are the poor, crazy, reckless people of Sweden? Living off Swedish tax money and taking up their inequitable residence in Swedish neighborhoods, and growing in numbers since the financial prosperity of the cradle-to-grave system doesn't discourage their lacklazy habits. They are often joined by productive Swedish citizens who simply take time off, after "earning" years of unemployment benefits. These categories, since they are subsidized, are not officially considered "unemployed" in most Swedish statistics, even though both demographics do no actual work. After making the observation that loons don't wander the streets of Sweden, P.J. O'Rourke commented in his book "Eat the Rich" - "The last time I walked through Gamla Stan, I didn't wonder where the crazy people were. In Sweden the craziness is redistributed fairly. They're all a little crazy."
well adjusted churchgoing citizens:
Sweden adopts Catholicism as it's official religion, and many of it's subsidized public schools are Catholic schools. This essentially forces most Swedes to take part and finance Catholic religious practices, whether they like it or not.
55% income tax:
This income tax, 55% of the Gross National Product, the highest income tax in the world, is also coupled with sales taxes, property taxes, and other excise taxes and tariffs. The Swedish sales tax, a "value added tax", ranges to 22.5% of items sold, on various goods including most foods. The total ownership of public goods by the Swedish government is roughly 64%, closing in on 70%, once you include all these other forms of taxation. That is not including government-owned means of production, which control about a full quarter of Swedish productivity.
history of strong family values:
The history of Swedish domestic relations is chock full of civil rights abuses. 62,000 Swedes were forcibly sterilized by the Swedish government over a 40 year period, until 1974, by government researchers who judged families as being "racially inferior". These sterilizations included both the parents and their children. During this time period, a Swedish Television documentary revealed that Sweden lobotomized at least 500 "undesirables", in some cases without the consent of their families, and that lobotomizations may have numbered up to 4,500 people. These practices predated and surpassed the era of Nazi Germany.
the most progressive education system in the world:
Education is universally free in Sweden, and like other free government-sponsored systems, it's on the verge of financial collapse and decay. Per student Sweden pays an average of $7,000 a year, while the 9 years of elementary schooling is required, high school and further education is not. Students receive financial benefits for continuing to high school, in the form of about $100 a month, although by college most people have got weaned on the Swedish unemployment system. Some High School students teach Elementary school, while Colleges teach what Swedish High Schools did 15 years ago, showing the recent decline in the quality of Swedish education. To solve unemployment figures, many unemployed people are forced into menial courses to change their status from "unemployed" to "student", illustrating the general sense of misuse of the Swedish education system.
extremely low unemployment:
Sweden, like other Socialist nations, use methods to "hide" unemployment figures from staticians, reflecting a "strong economy". Most people on the government dole are changed in status to not be considered "unemployed", for instance, out of work citizens are often considered "on paid leave", or given a menial class and considered "students", or simply conscripted into public works programs funded by the government and given menial labor there. The government's ability to fund the unemployed hides unemployment numbers, giving Sweden years of having unemployment numbers like 2%. This, like other Socialist nations of it's ilk, does not reflect the real life numbers of regularly working people.
Third Way:
Swedes often argue that their system is not Socialism, since only a fourth of the Swedish main lines of production are owned by the government. However, this is in light of the government owning 70% of the Swedish Gross National Product, and controlling the direction of industry through heavy regulation. By mandating who can provide what products and services, and controlling media, education and public utilities, Sweden definitely has found a "Third Way" between Capitalism and Socialism - that way, of course, being to fake Capitalism, where the Socialist goals of redistribution of wealth and products are realized without calling most industry "publicly owned". This same trick of a "Mixed Economy" is used by Socialist economists all around the world to help give government progressive control over trade.
The lesson of the Third Way? Free trade is not free just because someone calls it "free".
superior unionization:
Unions in Sweden have become hyper organized, and government involvement is obscure and questionable. Super-union organizations like the LO have official affiliations with the Social Democratic Party, and work closely with the authorities to push domestic reform provisions they feel are "in the interest of the workers".
strong economy:
While the government spent 70% of the Swedish Gross National Product in the '90s, for 4 years the national debt doubled and for 3 years the nation experienced negative financial growth.
Yup socialism works great
I mean, Venezuela is doing wonderfully...they are flat broke
Sweden?
The beautiful nation of Sweden has the highest standard of living in the world. Its blossoming industry ranks far higher than the United States in most measurements. Life in Socialist Sweden is free of homeless, reckless, crazy people and full of well adjusted churchgoing citizens. In spite of the 55% income tax, Sweden has a history of strong family values, the most progressive education system in the world and extremely low unemployment.
Sweden boasts a new Third Way between Capitalism and Socialism, making it a great example of new age Collectivism. It's superior unionization and strong economy will ensure that it will be a Socialistic success story for years to come.
If you say Sweden, I say "Socialism WORKS!"
But does it really work?
the highest standard of living:
Sweden's most affront claim, that it has the world's highest standard of living, is often based on the measure of equality in wealth redistribution, and not on the status of the national economy, the buying power of the Swedish crown (Krona), the amount of people working for productive aims or creating innovations, nor it's Gross National Product. Claims based on these other properties of the Swedish economy, in support of their "highest standard of living" claim, are mysteriously non-existent.
blossoming industry:
Sweden is a great place to start a new business - if you don't plan on being successful. A more lax economic policy in the '90s has increased new startups by 25%, but the economic attitude towards business hasn't changed much since the '70s, where entrepreneurs were treated like pariahs. Ikea founder Ingvar Kamprad told Forbes magazine that the Swedish tax bureaucrats would frequently accuse him of using people and "only wanting profits".
ranks far higher than the United States in most measurements:
The Swedish Institute of Trade reported in 2002 that "the median household income in Sweden at the end of the 1990s was the equivalent of $26,800, compared with a median of $39,400 for U.S. households". If Sweden were introduced to the U.S. as a new state, it would rank as the poorest according to these standards. This is in light of the fact that these numbers are gross values - before taxes - and Sweden has the highest taxes in the world. The same report also shows that Swedes fare lower than the lowest American socio-economic class, working-class black males.
free of homeless, reckless, crazy people:
The unfortunate in Sweden often don't roam the streets aimlessly, in fact, few are often found. That's because the state subsidizes them to live in optimal conditions and to provide little work - and if they are put into labor, it's in a public enterprise run by the government, to help reduce the official share of unemployed people. Workers can earn up to 570 paid days off a year (that's no typo - we know there are only 365 days a year - Swedes can earn more paid days off than days they actually work). So where are the poor, crazy, reckless people of Sweden? Living off Swedish tax money and taking up their inequitable residence in Swedish neighborhoods, and growing in numbers since the financial prosperity of the cradle-to-grave system doesn't discourage their lacklazy habits. They are often joined by productive Swedish citizens who simply take time off, after "earning" years of unemployment benefits. These categories, since they are subsidized, are not officially considered "unemployed" in most Swedish statistics, even though both demographics do no actual work. After making the observation that loons don't wander the streets of Sweden, P.J. O'Rourke commented in his book "Eat the Rich" - "The last time I walked through Gamla Stan, I didn't wonder where the crazy people were. In Sweden the craziness is redistributed fairly. They're all a little crazy."
well adjusted churchgoing citizens:
Sweden adopts Catholicism as it's official religion, and many of it's subsidized public schools are Catholic schools. This essentially forces most Swedes to take part and finance Catholic religious practices, whether they like it or not.
55% income tax:
This income tax, 55% of the Gross National Product, the highest income tax in the world, is also coupled with sales taxes, property taxes, and other excise taxes and tariffs. The Swedish sales tax, a "value added tax", ranges to 22.5% of items sold, on various goods including most foods. The total ownership of public goods by the Swedish government is roughly 64%, closing in on 70%, once you include all these other forms of taxation. That is not including government-owned means of production, which control about a full quarter of Swedish productivity.
history of strong family values:
The history of Swedish domestic relations is chock full of civil rights abuses. 62,000 Swedes were forcibly sterilized by the Swedish government over a 40 year period, until 1974, by government researchers who judged families as being "racially inferior". These sterilizations included both the parents and their children. During this time period, a Swedish Television documentary revealed that Sweden lobotomized at least 500 "undesirables", in some cases without the consent of their families, and that lobotomizations may have numbered up to 4,500 people. These practices predated and surpassed the era of Nazi Germany.
the most progressive education system in the world:
Education is universally free in Sweden, and like other free government-sponsored systems, it's on the verge of financial collapse and decay. Per student Sweden pays an average of $7,000 a year, while the 9 years of elementary schooling is required, high school and further education is not. Students receive financial benefits for continuing to high school, in the form of about $100 a month, although by college most people have got weaned on the Swedish unemployment system. Some High School students teach Elementary school, while Colleges teach what Swedish High Schools did 15 years ago, showing the recent decline in the quality of Swedish education. To solve unemployment figures, many unemployed people are forced into menial courses to change their status from "unemployed" to "student", illustrating the general sense of misuse of the Swedish education system.
extremely low unemployment:
Sweden, like other Socialist nations, use methods to "hide" unemployment figures from staticians, reflecting a "strong economy". Most people on the government dole are changed in status to not be considered "unemployed", for instance, out of work citizens are often considered "on paid leave", or given a menial class and considered "students", or simply conscripted into public works programs funded by the government and given menial labor there. The government's ability to fund the unemployed hides unemployment numbers, giving Sweden years of having unemployment numbers like 2%. This, like other Socialist nations of it's ilk, does not reflect the real life numbers of regularly working people.
Third Way:
Swedes often argue that their system is not Socialism, since only a fourth of the Swedish main lines of production are owned by the government. However, this is in light of the government owning 70% of the Swedish Gross National Product, and controlling the direction of industry through heavy regulation. By mandating who can provide what products and services, and controlling media, education and public utilities, Sweden definitely has found a "Third Way" between Capitalism and Socialism - that way, of course, being to fake Capitalism, where the Socialist goals of redistribution of wealth and products are realized without calling most industry "publicly owned". This same trick of a "Mixed Economy" is used by Socialist economists all around the world to help give government progressive control over trade.
The lesson of the Third Way? Free trade is not free just because someone calls it "free".
superior unionization:
Unions in Sweden have become hyper organized, and government involvement is obscure and questionable. Super-union organizations like the LO have official affiliations with the Social Democratic Party, and work closely with the authorities to push domestic reform provisions they feel are "in the interest of the workers".
strong economy:
While the government spent 70% of the Swedish Gross National Product in the '90s, for 4 years the national debt doubled and for 3 years the nation experienced negative financial growth.
DavidS
Anti-Tea Party Member
If it's okay with you, we'll save this discussion for the "Philosophy Forum".
Is there one on here? There should be. Politics is just an extension of philosophy.
DavidS
Anti-Tea Party Member
In 10 posts, no one has argued Senator Obama doesn't have Socialist leanings.
And no one has argued that John McCain doesn't have socialist leanings either!
The Paperboy
Times Square
- Thread starter
- #35
Obama Wealth Video Now No. 1 with 750,000 plays (that's 3/4 of a million for all of you wealth redistributors) just since this morning.
DavidS
Anti-Tea Party Member
I say we redistribute the wealth paperboy gives us to another political forum that is in need of people like him!
The Paperboy
Times Square
- Thread starter
- #37
One million and climbing...
Last edited:
The Paperboy
Times Square
- Thread starter
- #38
Near 1.5 million view since this morning:
You'll have to explain to me how clinging to ones religion explains their fruustrations.
A LOT of people turn to religion when they are frustrated.
Conversely, how can not clinging to ones religion relieve frustrations.
"I'm bitter, so I cling to my religion to explain my frustrations ?"
Sure. Gotcha. Next?
You should learn basic logic. Thats a logical flaw you just did there.
A LOT of people turn to religion when they are frustrated.
"Turn to religion" is not "cling to religion".
You should learn basic logic. Thats a logical flaw you just did there.
Wasn't offered at Hard Scrabble U.
I've considered reading the book, but I'm holding out for the movie. :b
I'll reckon I'm doomed to muddle thru on common sense alone.
Like this:
If someone goes to a west coast fundraiser and proclaims, behind my back, that I am frustrated and bitter so I cling to religion...he ain't payin' me no compliment.
.
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