Obama supporters

Is this the type of regulation that you want?

At Moment of Truth, U.S. Forced Big Bankers to Blink - WSJ.com

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WASHINGTON -- On one side of the table sat Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson, flanked by Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke and Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. Chairman Sheila Bair.

On the other side sat the nation's top bank executives, who had flown in from around the country, lined up in alphabetical order by bank, with Bank of America Corp. at one end of the table and Wells Fargo & Co. at another.

It was Monday afternoon at 3 p.m. at the Treasury headquarters. Messrs. Paulson and Bernanke had called one of the most important gatherings of bankers in American history. For an hour, the nine executives drank coffee and water and listened to the two men paint a dire portrait of the U.S. economy and the unfolding financial crisis. As the meeting neared a close, each banker was handed a term sheet detailing how the government would take stakes valued at a combined $125 billion in their banks, and impose new restrictions on executive pay and dividend policies.
Question of the Day

The participants, among the nation's best deal makers, were in a peculiar position. They weren't allowed to negotiate. Mr. Paulson requested that each of them sign. It was for their own good and the good of the country, he said, according to a person in the room.

During the discussion, the most animated response came from Wells Fargo Chairman Richard Kovacevich, say people present. Why was this necessary? he asked. Why did the government need to buy stakes in these banks?

Morgan Stanley Chief Executive John Mack, whose company was among the most vulnerable in the group to the swirling financial crisis, quickly signed.

Bank of America's Kenneth Lewis acknowledged the obvious, that everyone at the table would participate. "Any one of us who doesn't have a healthy fear of the unknown isn't paying attention," he said.

This account is based on interviews with participants, government officials and banking-industry executives.

Regulators had spent the weekend crashing out their latest strategy to restore confidence to America's battered banking system. As markets tumbled last week and foreign governments began taking dramatic steps, U.S. officials coalesced around a plan that would include guaranteeing bank debt and a big capital injection. Policy makers wanted to deliver a "confidence shock," one participant said.

Treasury and government officials held multiple meetings and conference calls on Saturday. Dozens of officials gathered at Treasury's headquarters Sunday morning and stayed into the evening, lunching on sandwiches from Potbelly Sandwich Works.

They kept coming back to the same question: Is the plan too sweeping? Policy makers knew they were taking unprecedented steps. It would take years to disentangle banks from the federal government. Some of these temporary steps would be hard to undo.

Policy makers debated how the government's capital injections should be structured, especially the question of the dividend banks would pay. Make it too high, and that risked draining firms of needed funds and scaring off other potential rescue recipients. Make it too low, and taxpayers wouldn't be compensated for their risk. Another challenge: Inject capital without scaring away private investors.

A final deal between regulators was hashed out in Mr. Paulson's office Sunday afternoon. For Mr. Paulson, who had spent a career as an investment banker, the decision marked a reversal. Just weeks earlier, he had said that injecting capital directly into banks would appear to be a sign of "failure."

The top bankers were then told to show up for a meeting Monday at 3 p.m., but were given few details. Expecting an uproar over the plan, government officials secretly planned to break off the first meeting, giving CEOs time to vent, talk to their boards, clear their heads, and reconvene at 6:30 p.m.

In Mr. Paulson's call with Morgan Stanley's Mr. Mack, people familiar with the matter say, the CEO asked the Treasury secretary the reason for the meeting. Mr. Paulson responded: "Come on down, we'll tell everyone at the same time," adding, "I think you'll be pleased."

Also at the 3 p.m. gathering was New York Fed President Timothy Geithner, along with Fed Governor Kevin Warsh and Comptroller of the Currency John Dugan. Behind them were lawyers and staff. The meeting took place in the Treasury secretary's conference room, which faces a courtyard and is outfitted with mahogany chairs, antique wall sconces and chandeliers.

It struck some of those in the room as fortunate that Citigroup Inc. and Wells Fargo are so far apart in the alphabet. The two firms just last week were locked in a bitter battle over control of banking giant Wachovia Corp., a fight Wells Fargo eventually won. Citigroup is still seeking billions of dollars from Wells Fargo in damages for swooping in on the Citigroup deal after regulators had already blessed it. With the firms sitting alphabetically, at least the heads of the two rivals, Mr. Kovacevich and Citigroup Chief Executive Vikram Pandit, wouldn't have to sit next to each other.

Mr. Paulson said the public had lost confidence in the banking system. "The system needs more money, and all of you will be better off if there's more capital in the system," Mr. Paulson told the bankers.

After Mr. Kovacevich voiced his concerns, Mr. Paulson described the deal starkly. He told the Wells Fargo chairman he could accept the government's money or risk going without the infusion. If the company found it needed capital later and Mr. Kovacevich couldn't raise money privately, Mr. Paulson promised the government wouldn't be so generous the second time around.

Mr. Bernanke said the situation was the worst the country had endured since the Great Depression. He said action was for the collective good, an understated appeal. The room was silent as he described the economy's fragile condition.

Mr. Geithner, whose job as New York Fed chief makes him the central bank's main man on Wall Street, delivered the most sobering news. He described how much preferred stock the government was going to buy from each firm. The government would take $25 billion in Citigroup, $10 billion in Goldman Sachs Group Inc., and so on.

The CEOs shot off questions, peppering officials for details about how the share purchases would be structured and how it might constrain them. At one tense moment, Mr. Bernanke jumped in to calm nerves. The meeting didn't need to be confrontational, he said, describing paralysis in the market and the threat that posed to everyone in the room.

U.S. officials argued the plan represented a good deal for the banks: The government would be buying preferred shares, and thus wouldn't dilute their common shareholders. And the banks would pay a relatively modest 5% in annual dividend payments.

The meeting ended at about 4 p.m. By 6:30 p.m., all of the sheets had been turned in and signed by the CEOs. No second meeting was held.


So the government basically hands banks a piece of paper and says "sign...or else" and that's just hunky dory okie dokie?
 
Every single Republican President since Ford has supported "spreading the wealth" through the Earned Income Tax Credit.

The fact that Republicans constantly call Democrats "communists" or "socialists" for supporting programs which redistribute wealth while at the same time supporting Presidents who call such wealth redistribution programs as the EIC "the best anti-poverty, the best pro-family, the best job creation measure to come out of Congress" proves one thing - you guys are either HYPOCRITES or ignorant of the programs that your very own Presidents supported. Heck, John McCain wants to redistribute the wealth buy giving every American family 5k to spend on health care costs. THAT IS WEALTH REDISTRIBUTION - but hey, its OK, because a Republicans doing it.


IDEAS THAT REPUBLICANS SUPPORT OR HAVE SUPPORTED:



EIC = WEALTH REDISTRIBUTION
VOUCHERS FOR SCHOOLS = WEALTH REDISTRIBUTION
BAIL OUTS FOR WALL STREET = WEALTH REDISTRIBUTION
5k PER FAMILY FOR HEALTH CARE REGARDLESS OF THE AMOUNT OF TAXES ACTUALLY PAID = WEALTH REDISTRIBUTION




Heck, public roads are wealth redistribution. There's no need to have them in a capitalist system. We just allow entrepreneurs to buy or lease land and build roads on it and they can charge a fee for their use. The vast expansion of the public road system in Louisiana was in fact one of the centerpieces of Huey Long's "Share The Wealth" program. Another centerpiece? Providing free textbooks and transportation to and from school to all students in the state - regardless of whether or not they attended public or private school. Definite socialist ideas, yeah,

While I will agree there are may elements of socialism within the structure of our government and I don't know what about my posting gives you an impression otherwise. I also don't think I assumed anything as to anyone's views in my post and put them into a category like you wish to do to me. I would be careful in that, because not one single person here thinks exactly the same on ALL issues. My point is simply this, that to advocate the redistribution of wealth in order to level the playing field or as a punishment to those that dare put their heads up and try to succeed is to have a lack of understanding of the founding principles of this nation. self reliance, responsibility for one's self and one's family, and a belief that if you work hard and are a good citizen that nothing is out of your reach. Now, however, some see this message that has sustained this country for over 200 plus years as not good enough because they want what their neighbors have without earning it. Yes we have as society an obligation to help those that cannot help themselves and the elderly, as a society is measured by it's compassion for those that cannot help themselves. Although, those that look to the government to be the end all to every problem they come across in life have lost or do not know about those values. How you got that I am somehow a ultra right wing Republican out of that, that has no idea that we have social programs in place now, I have no clue.


Now I will address some of the things that you mentioned, like highways, and school vouchers, etc. Let's take roads as your example of wealth redistribution. The taxes that you and I pay to build those highways are for pubilc use and you and I and anyone else for that matter can use them. However, if I was taxed at a higher rate than you so that you could get a refund or discounted rate and the taxes I paid also went to build that highway while giving you that refund then thats wealth redistribution. It is NOT wealth redistrubution when the taxes you and I pay go for pubilc works or prividing for the common defense as we both have equal access to those. If I were to be taxed at a higher rate in order to give a tax refund for any reason to anyone no matter what party is doing it , thats taking the wealth I have worked for and redistributing it. All of your examples are equal access pubilc funded examples that both you and I can take advantage of equally. Yes I agree they are social in nature , however they are not examples of wealth redistribution in the classic sense of making the masses equal.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need (or needs) is a slogan popularized by Karl Marx in his 1875 Critique of the Gotha Program.[1] The phrase summarizes the principles that, under a communist system, every person should contribute to society to the best of their ability and consume from society in proportion to their needs, regardless of how much they have contributed. In the Marxist view, such an arrangement will be made possible by the abundance of goods and services that a developed communist society will produce; the idea is that there will be enough to satisfy everyone's needs. i.e. taking income from higher income brackets and redistributing it among the lower income brackets to level out the masses. << thats wealth redistribution.
 
Let's see the first 100K is taxed at x%, the second at y% the third at z% etc until we reach a portion of income that is taxed at upwards of 90% making it virtually impossible to earn more than an amount determined by government taxation.

Is that not an income cap?

Maybe the difference between you and I is that you TRUST the government.

If the largest portion of my working days income goes to pay federal taxes, am I not being taxed too much?


$tax freedon pie chart.jpg

The average person works 74 days just to pay his federal taxes. You propose more?
 
Perhaps they're willing to support an alternative system that is an abject failure because the system in place is an abject failure for them?

Just a thought, but what we have NOW is hardly the opposite of communism.

As we have just all seen (or are we already agreeing to ignore what we saw?) what we have now is hardly a meritocracy.

And let's face it, for real capitalism to exist, we really do need to live in an HONEST meritocracy.

NAV, do you think we live in a nation even remotely approaching an honest meritocracy?

Would an honest meitocracy reward those failed banks with over a trillion dollars? I don't think so.

I have a theory about why Americans love sports so much.

Because professional sports are about as close as we ever get to seeing a situation where MERIT actually gets rewarded according to the merit shown.

We surely do NOT see that in business, or in goverment either. Mostly what we see now is the outcomes of a oligarchical system which is clearly not interesting in rewarding based on merit, but will reward based on LOYALTY to the oligarch.

The ONLY way to truly have a meritocracy is if everyone starts out with the same resources and makes of them what they can in a system which treats everyone equally under the law.

Does that describe our world?

Clearly not.

So when our resident libertarians tell us that those on top got their on MERIT, a lot of us who have a reality based world view, think they've been misinformed.


The PROBLEM with these sharing the wealth schemes is they are seldom (never, actually) done fairly or wisely, either.

And so instead of helping those who deserve to get some help and who could do something meitorous with it, we end up rewarding failure and often corruption, too.

But isn't that exactly what the bailout was .. and it was not a "share the wealth" plan by any means.

Excellent post brother.
 
Because all the rich folk stashing their wealth has worked so well for the US....pure capitalism is such a great economic system....:lol:

No offense intended here Dr. Grump but what in this society would give you the impression that something is your right that you have not earned and that which your neighbor has worked for is yours? This is the concept that some are advocating here, that to look to their neighbors and see that they have more and when they cannot aquire it by hard work and dedication then they look to the government to take it from those that have and spread it around. As a matter of fact our system of government has worked for over 200 plus years it has had it's up's and downs , but our system works and a pure system based on a central govt. that controls the masses in all aspects is a proven failure and lasted what? 80 plus years? Want another positive example of such a system, look about 90 miles south of Fl. I fail to see when the idea that some who has succeeded in life has become something to scorn based simply on the fact that they have more than you. So my answer to your question, and this is based on experience is a resounding YES our system has been great for us and will continue to be great for us as long as we remember what principles this country was founded upon and not proven failed ones from a drunken German.
 
I live in a reasonably socialist country (compared to the US). I can own a gun. We don't mind living in a welfare state, but we also hate lazy fucks, and as soon as they are found to be leaching off the state they get their butts kicked.

The money I also earn is mine. Nobody is trying to take it off me (except for the govt in the form of taxes).

Nationalising banks???? This is the biggest laugh for me with regards to America, and I think I have already mentioned it on another thread, and it is this:

Am I the only one who finds it ironic that some of the big US banks are now being either fully or partially nationalised due to the greedy capitalism of conservative Americans? So the very people who hate the idea of any sort of socialism are actually responsible for such a thing occurring? It couldn't have been scripted any better...

I am absolutely confident that history will prove democratic socialism to be the best system of government for all humans in every country.

Mixed economies, mixed philosophical perspectives, mixed people ...
 
I am absolutely confident that history will prove democratic socialism to be the best system of government for all humans in every country.

Mixed economies, mixed philosophical perspectives, mixed people ...

First let me say this BaC I don't think I have ever said at any point that we are a pure democracy or for that matter we are a pure capitialist society. All one needs to do is look at Social Security or Medicare or for that matter the recent "bailout to understand that. However, my issue has more to do with the pure concept of taking wealth from higher income brackets to level the so called playing field and in a great giveaway transfer it to those that have not earned it as some sort of punishment for success. This sends a terrible message too all those that dare try to succeed and tells them that it's okay to sit on your collective backsides as your neighbor will take care of you. In this sort of society what incentive is there to better yourself, to learn to advance yourself. You know frequently I post comments from past Americans because the wisdom of people that came before us needs to be paid attention to.

"Property is the fruit of labor...property is desirable...is a positive good in the world. That some should be rich shows that others may become rich, and hence is just encouragement to industry and enterprise. Let not him who is houseless pull down the house of another; but let him labor diligently and build one for himself, thus by example assuring that his own shall be safe from violence when built." Abraham Lincoln
 
First let me say this BaC I don't think I have ever said at any point that we are a pure democracy or for that matter we are a pure capitialist society. All one needs to do is look at Social Security or Medicare or for that matter the recent "bailout to understand that. However, my issue has more to do with the pure concept of taking wealth from higher income brackets to level the so called playing field and in a great giveaway transfer it to those that have not earned it as some sort of punishment for success. This sends a terrible message too all those that dare try to succeed and tells them that it's okay to sit on your collective backsides as your neighbor will take care of you. In this sort of society what incentive is there to better yourself, to learn to advance yourself. You know frequently I post comments from past Americans because the wisdom of people that came before us needs to be paid attention to.

"Property is the fruit of labor...property is desirable...is a positive good in the world. That some should be rich shows that others may become rich, and hence is just encouragement to industry and enterprise. Let not him who is houseless pull down the house of another; but let him labor diligently and build one for himself, thus by example assuring that his own shall be safe from violence when built." Abraham Lincoln

Being a socialist doesn't mean I endorse "sitting on one's backside", nor does it mean I have any problems with rich people, or people owning property. But it does mean that "property" and being rich are not the central focus of what I think is in the best interests of this country.

I believe that both the our society, government, and economy should be run democratically to meet public needs, not to make profits for a few.

As you've said, there are elements of socialism in our government today .. yet, none of it threatens property or individual freedom. They are done in the public interest, not the interests of the wealthy.

Our single-minded focus on "rich" and "property" has distorted the very ideals of democracy .. and has led to the implosion we see before us today. There are far more fulfilling things in life than property .. which is completely devoid of spiritualism and a REAL sense of patriotism .. in my opinion.
 
Let's see the first 100K is taxed at x%, the second at y% the third at z% etc until we reach a portion of income that is taxed at upwards of 90% making it virtually impossible to earn more than an amount determined by government taxation.

I believe the top tax rate on INCOME is 35%.

The top tax rate on capital gains is 15%.

So what are you talking about, Skull?

As we can plainly see top incomes from LABOR are being taxed at lates over two times that of investments.

This is, incidently, why I keep reminding people that the upper middle class are the most screwed segment of the population when it comes to paying a huge share of their incomes in taxes.

Most of the affluent's upper middle class incomes come from their LABOR, and therefore the most productive people in America are taxed at higher rates than the check cashing scions who don't have to do doodle-squat for their dough.

And STILL most Americans feel sorry for the stupendously wealthy heirs because they can only inherit 80 years average American family income tax free?!

I just don't get it.

The people who should be MOST supportive of tax reform are the people who appear to be to be the most supportive of the very people who are screwing them via the tax codes.

They keep blaming welfare mothers when it is so very very obvious that most of their taxes are supporting the superwealthy.
 
Being a socialist doesn't mean I endorse "sitting on one's backside", nor does it mean I have any problems with rich people, or people owning property. But it does mean that "property" and being rich are not the central focus of what I think is in the best interests of this country.

I believe that both the our society, government, and economy should be run democratically to meet public needs, not to make profits for a few.

As you've said, there are elements of socialism in our government today .. yet, none of it threatens property or individual freedom. They are done in the public interest, not the interests of the wealthy.

Our single-minded focus on "rich" and "property" has distorted the very ideals of democracy .. and has led to the implosion we see before us today. There are far more fulfilling things in life than property .. which is completely devoid of spiritualism and a REAL sense of patriotism .. in my opinion.

But you support supporting those who sit on their backsides

I fully believe we need democracy in our government that is cross checked by constitutionalism... so that the tyranny of populism and fickle, ever changing popular whim, is not the basis of our government... the constitution was written just for this protection...
 
I believe the top tax rate on INCOME is 35%.

The top tax rate on capital gains is 15%.

My point is that if one sits back and says OK raise my taxes a little the government will do just that. To say that the government will not keep raising taxes if we allow it is naivete in the worst sense. That illustration is what will happen if we keep trusting the government.

So what are you talking about, Skull?

I have no faith that the government will NOT keep raising taxes.

As we can plainly see top incomes from LABOR are being taxed at lates over two times that of investments.

Income from investments should be taxed even lower that they are encouraging MORE investment and savings.

This is, incidently, why I keep reminding people that the upper middle class are the most screwed segment of the population when it comes to paying a huge share of their incomes in taxes.

I agree which is why I am so anti tax. the government can do very few things better than I can when it comes to my money. Which is why i don't want to give my money to the government without a fight.

Most of the affluent's upper middle class incomes come from their LABOR, and therefore the most productive people in America are taxed at higher rates than the check cashing scions who don't have to do doodle-squat for their dough.

Reduce ALL taxes then. Where do I sign for that?

And STILL most Americans feel sorry for the stupendously wealthy heirs because they can only inherit 80 years average American family income tax free?!

i have no sympathy for any wealthy person just as I have none for those who live beyond their means and then expect a handout from the government. BTW that sentiment goes double for businesses and banks.

Do you want a government that coerces businesses to sign a stock sale agreement? I don't but lo and behold that is exactly what we have. We need to starve the government into submission and the only way to do that is to give it less of our money...let me rephrase that... to not allow it to take our money.

I just don't get it.

The people who should be MOST supportive of tax reform are the people who appear to be to be the most supportive of the very people who are screwing them via the tax codes.

which is why the tax code needs to be burned so we can start anew with a truly equitable one.

In 2007 total federal revenues were 18.69% of GDP or $2568.2 billion
but total federal spending was 19.87% of GDP or $2730.2 billion

Do you think 2008 and on will be better or worse?

It's time to put the government on a diet. 10% OF GDP is all it should get period. Scale down; cut spending. Let states make it up on their end if need be.

The bottom line is the more of their own money that people get to keep, the better off they are. the better off the people are the better off the country is.

They keep blaming welfare mothers when it is so very very obvious that most of their taxes are supporting the superwealthy.

I have no problem with welfare as long as it goes to those citizens who truly need it.
 
No offense intended here Dr. Grump but what in this society would give you the impression that something is your right that you have not earned and that which your neighbor has worked for is yours?

Where have I said that? As the leader of our libertarian party said down here: I believe in a safety net at the bottom of a cliff, not a hammock...:cool:
 
Where have I said that? As the leader of our libertarian party said down here: I believe in a safety net at the bottom of a cliff, not a hammock...:cool:

My mistake then Dr. as I was left with the impression from your previous posting that you were advocating more of the hammock and less of the safety net. However that does bring up and intresting question as you mentioned that you are a libertarian, at what point does the government tell those that have taken advantage of that net it's time to be self reliant and who in the government sets that standard. I don't advocate leaving people out in the cold, but at some point people who are able must take responsibility for their own actions and themselves IMO.
 
My mistake then Dr. as I was left with the impression from your previous posting that you were advocating more of the hammock and less of the safety net. However that does bring up and intresting question as you mentioned that you are a libertarian, at what point does the government tell those that have taken advantage of that net it's time to be self reliant and who in the government sets that standard. I don't advocate leaving people out in the cold, but at some point people who are able must take responsibility for their own actions and themselves IMO.

Like most peolpe I fit into many categories. I have never voted libertarian, but I have voted for National (our GoP) and Labour (our Dem) within the same election (we get two votes, one for the party and one for a Member of Parliament).
That aside, not even libs like leeches. it's one of those urban myths sent to reinforce that socialism is bad. There are leeches in most forms of govt..
 
[youtube]hgtij3dE10A[/youtube]

Wow, that video was pointless. A clearly biased reporter shoving a camera in people's face and trying to elicit the answers she wants by antagonizing people. If anything, it shows how big of douches republicans are. Go look at the base of the Republican party and I guarantee you will find worse people then that. The deep south is full of frightening characters.
 
Even with that, Obama's plans are so far off from being either it's ludicrous people would say that.

If you look up interviews of actual socialists, they don't care much for Barack Obama.
 
Wow, that video was pointless. A clearly biased reporter shoving a camera in people's face and trying to elicit the answers she wants by antagonizing people. If anything, it shows how big of douches republicans are. Go look at the base of the Republican party and I guarantee you will find worse people then that. The deep south is full of frightening characters.
yeah, no one does that to McCain supporters
:rolleyes:
 
What do you call confiscatory level? In Britain in the late 70s and most of 80s Rod Stewart, the Rolling Stones and several other rich folk lived in France. They were allowed to only return to Britain for something like 80 days a year. If they overstayed that time, for tax purposes, they had to pay British taxes. What was the tax rate for them at the time? Over a certain amount the rate was 83 pence in the pound...Now, that's what I call a tax rate. So stop your bitching. If you don't like paying tax, don't use roads, or any other free shit your tax pays for.

well, until 1985, the top tax bracket in the US was 70 or 80 percent.
 

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