Obama strengthens USA's international relations

[elvis]

Define this 'everything' he had to apply.

Britain was at war with Germany two years before the Soviets were attacked.

Hitler attacked the Soviets party because he believed that knocking out the Soviets might make Britain surrender as it would not have a continental ally and that it would only take a few weeks to do it.

So tell us this magical military might Hitler could apply to the UK to force them out of the war, if they had defeated the Soviets.

How close was Britain to starving before the US became involved?

They would have been forced into surrender from Starvation without food sent on US shipping.

The Germans twice came close to winning the battle of the Atlantic, in 41 and in 43. Extreme efforts by the Royal and US Navies prevented it.

As long as the USA was backing britain, Germany could not force them out of the war, and the USA backed them from 1940 on, despite so called 'neutrality.'

what would have been entailed in the germans winning in the atlantic? what would have been the ramifications of them winning it?

 

[Xenophon]

Question is, in that situation, are the Soviets neutral or fighting with Hitler?

Nazi master race policy precludes any possibilty of alliance.

If the Soviets surrendered, the Germans themselves estimated they would have to keep 50 divisions in Russia to 'pacify' the country, but this number is optomistic, The Germans had a huge problem with logistics in Russia and there would have been resistance all over. We can use Yugoslavia as an example, Germany kept 20 divisions in this much smaller country, yet it had lost large areas of the countryside to Partisans and could not stamp them out.

Active resistance would probaly tie up 150 German divisions to difficult and demoralizing anti Partisan warfare.

The SS was also sure to be busy killing jews and other 'untermench' so that resistance would only grow.

 

[elvis]

Question is, in that situation, are the Soviets neutral or fighting with Hitler?

Nazi master race policy precludes any possibilty of alliance.

If the Soviets surrendered, the Germans themselves estimated they would have to keep 50 divisions in Russia to 'pacify' the country, but this number is optomistic, The Germans had a huge problem with logistics in Russia and there would have been resistance all over. We can use Yugoslavia as an example, Germany kept 20 divisions in this much smaller country, yet it had lost large areas of the countryside to Partisans and could not stamp them out.

Active resistance would probaly tie up 150 German divisions to difficult and demoralizing anti Partisan warfare.

The SS was also sure to be busy killing jews and other 'untermench' so that resistance would only grow.

yeah one third of the Wehrmacht were being used in enslavement and murder of "die Untermenschen".

 

[Oddball]

what would have been entailed in the germans winning in the atlantic? what would have been the ramifications of them winning it?

Disaster and possible capitulation of England, but less problematic for the western hemisphere, as Germany had no aircraft carriers even on the drawing board.

America deploys a couple of carrier task forces to the Atlantic and there's nowhere for the wolf packs to hide.

 

[Xenophon]

It appears the only reason for your hypothetical analysis is to put the Russians down.

You continue to make the same error, that i am some ultra nationalist.

Facts are facts and cannot be changed.

It is not generally understood today, but teh soviets had a dangerous manpower shortage in 1945, even they had reached their limit, its why they delayed joining the Asia war, they had to send armies fighting the Nazis east, they didn't have the ability to wage two front war.

You believe I am 'insulting' the russians while you simply do not understand the raw power of Atomic weapons and massive industry.

The boring science of logistics wins wars, the Soviets were not very good at this, they relied on the USA for key items, the USA was the master of it, US industry could bury you in piles of materials.

 

[Xenophon]

what would have been entailed in the germans winning in the atlantic? what would have been the ramifications of them winning it?

Disaster and possible capitulation of England, but less problematic for the western hemisphere, as Germany had no aircraft carriers even on the drawing board.

America deploys a couple of carrier task forces to the Atlantic and there's nowhere for the wolf packs to hide.

For shame!

Germany had the 'Graf Zeppelin' 90% complete and Italy had the 'Aquila' not as far along.

 

[Oddball]

yeah one third of the Wehrmacht were being used in enslavement and murder of "die Untermenschen".

Which was only a slightly better deal than being one of the millions of Soviet conscripts.

A lot of those poor bastards were trotted out in front of direct and indirect fire, armed with nothing but broomsticks, to run the Germans out of ammo.

 

[elvis]

yeah one third of the Wehrmacht were being used in enslavement and murder of "die Untermenschen".

Which was only a slightly better deal than being one of the millions of Soviet conscripts.

A lot of those poor bastards were trotted out in front of direct and indirect fire, armed with nothing but broomsticks, to run the Germans out of ammo.

yeah Stalin was one ruthless bastard.

 

[Modbert]

yeah Stalin was one ruthless bastard.

Ain't that an understatement.

 

[elvis]

yeah Stalin was one ruthless bastard.

Ain't that an understatement.

Hitler was responsible for 50 million deaths during ww2, stalin was responsible for 70 million of his own people's deaths. When the Nazis first entered the Soviet Union, they were greeted as liberators.

 

[Oddball]

what would have been entailed in the germans winning in the atlantic? what would have been the ramifications of them winning it?

Disaster and possible capitulation of England, but less problematic for the western hemisphere, as Germany had no aircraft carriers even on the drawing board.

America deploys a couple of carrier task forces to the Atlantic and there's nowhere for the wolf packs to hide.

For shame!

Germany had the 'Graf Zeppelin' 90% complete and Italy had the 'Aquila' not as far along.

O.K...Ya got me!!

Even though they were in fact past being on the drawing board, what aircraft would've been flown off of them??...FW190s and ME109s certainly weren't designed for "controlled crash" carrier landings.

 

[ElmerMudd]

It appears the only reason for your hypothetical analysis is to put the Russians down.

You continue to make the same error, that i am some ultra nationalist.

Facts are facts and cannot be changed.

It is not generally understood today, but teh soviets had a dangerous manpower shortage in 1945, even they had reached their limit, its why they delayed joining the Asia war, they had to send armies fighting the Nazis east, they didn't have the ability to wage two front war.

You believe I am 'insulting' the russians while you simply do not understand the raw power of Atomic weapons and massive industry.

The boring science of logistics wins wars, the Soviets were not very good at this, they relied on the USA for key items, the USA was the master of it, US industry could bury you in piles of materials.

You are right that I thought you were an ultra nationalist. I probably am wrong.

It sounds like you know your stuff.

 

[Xenophon]

It means 'For Stalin'

 

[Xenophon]

You are right that I thought you were an ultra nationalist. I probably am wrong.

It sounds like you know your stuff.

No worries Elmer, welcome aboard.

 

[elvis]

It means 'For Stalin'

yeah the SS really galvanized the Soviets. they rallied around stalin.

 

[Darkwind]

Yes, because our Leaders should always be more concerned with what other nations think then what is best for us.



I can guarantee that no nation on this planet is going to give two shits about what the USA thinks about them when they are pursuing their own interests.

 

[Xenophon]

Disaster and possible capitulation of England, but less problematic for the western hemisphere, as Germany had no aircraft carriers even on the drawing board.

America deploys a couple of carrier task forces to the Atlantic and there's nowhere for the wolf packs to hide.

For shame!

Germany had the 'Graf Zeppelin' 90% complete and Italy had the 'Aquila' not as far along.

O.K...Ya got me!!

Even though they were in fact past being on the drawing board, what aircraft would've been flown off of them??...FW190s and ME109s certainly weren't designed for "controlled crash" carrier landings.

The Germans stuck an arestor hook on the BF 109E believe it or not.

That and Stukas were the intended airgroup.

The Italian carrier would have only carried fighters.

 

[Oddball]

The Stukas would've held up...But not without decent fighter escort, which no Italian fighter could provide against F-6s and F4Us.

The tailhook on the BF109 wouldn't have been as problematic as the undercarriage....Beef that up and you lose a lot of useful load.

 

[Xenophon]

They tried it:

BF-109T

 

[Oddball]

I am in the presence of greatness.

[2.4] BF-109T / BF-109H / BF-109TL / BF-109Z

* The Bf-109E-1 was used as the basis for a German naval fighter built by Fiesler, the "Bf-109T", with the "T" standing for "Traeger (Carrier)". The "Toni" was to be used on board the German aircraft carriers GRAF ZEPPELIN, which was launched but never completed for operations, and PETER STRASSER, which was never built.

The Bf-109T featured folding wings with longer span; arrester hook in front of the tailwheel; catapult attachment gear; spoilers on top of the wings; interconnected ailerons and flaps; and full-span leading-edge slats. Ten "Bf-109T-0" preproduction aircraft and 60 "Bf-109T-1" production aircraft were ordered from Fiesler, since Messerschmitt was too heavily committed to existing production orders to do the job themselves.

[2.0] Second Generation Bf-109s / Unusual Variants



Still, I'll take the F-6 and lay the points.