Obama and Guns

I was not being sarcastic--but it sure is alot easier for you to make an issue out of your perception of my tone than to refute the point I made. :cool:

yeah, that's it....:rolleyes:


Of course you were, retard.

Yep, Winner, that's right, I was. Go back and reread the thread. It's not that hard to follow - then again, following logic ain't your strong point is Dumbo..

Despite your inability you follow your own half of the converstion, or that I answered your questions, I will answer these new questions as well: the First United States Congress, in 1791, decided which rights were to be enumerated, and they did so in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of the powers granted to the Government through the Constitution, and they thought, at the time, that those amendments were sufficient to the task.

Finally! The answer I was after. It took you this long? Why? Because, as I have said, you are more interested in other things - like being "Big Sensai on Campus" and trying to show lurkers just what a Brainiac you are on the subject...:clap2: Now your ego has been satiated with being a Know-All and we are now in awe of your intellect, do you care to answer any other questions? Because the above cries out for more questions to be answered. Why only those rights are to be enumerated? What gave them the right to decide what rights were to be enumerated? They were gods? You are also sending mixed messages (IMO). Are you saying that the amendments just protect those enumerated rights, so therefore more amendments can do the same to new rights?

It's not so clear that you understand what <a href="http://www.fallacyfiles.org/adhomine.html">ad hominem</a> is, I do not consider myself the last word on everything, there is no chip on my shoulder, and I have no problem getting along with people--so long as those people are not persistently mendacious dumbfucks; they don't appreciate being outed.

Sure you like being the last word. I have seen you post too often to too many different people on the board and it always ends the same with you. Ad hominem's on those that disagree with you. And, um, your link spells out exactly what an ad hominem is, and yes, you started playing the preson (remember the tosser remark?)...Yeah, we're all dumbfucks and you make Einstein look like and advertisement for Retardsville....

No, you're supposed to get the point. Hope springs ever eternal.

Nothing to do with any point. It was about guessing your tone.

No, actually you're wrong; experise does not magically embue one with some immunity from being full of shit--hence, your argument (regarding argument from authority) is patently invalid.

Where did I say expertise magically embued anybody with anything? I said it lends creedence to their credibility, and if you don't get that, then you certainly are mentally challenged. If you think attorney's in a court case on fraud are going to get an expert on the Canadian salmon to aid their cause, then I've got a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn. And it sounds like your "argument from authority" claptrap was written by somebody who got their arse handed to them on a plate by an expert.

I don't give an inch to fucktards trying to put words in my mouth, or assign their farcical motives to my arguments.

Yeah, you do. And I've put no words in your mouth

I'm aware of where I'm at.

Sure{wink}

Speak for yourself. I clearly state where simply stating my opinion is simply stating my opinion, and I have clearly stated when my opinion is irrelevent (even in this particular thread)--when I say something that is fact, I back it up. Try it on for size.

Give me an example of what you have said is an opinion in this thread and that it has been irrelevent
 
I was not being sarcastic--but it sure is alot easier for you to make an issue out of your perception of my tone than to refute the point I made. :cool:

yeah, that's it....:rolleyes:

I see you're sticking to your plan...BRAVO!:clap2:

Of course you were, retard.

Yep, Winner, that's right, I was. Go back and reread the thread. It's not that hard to follow - then again, following logic ain't your strong point is Dumbo..

Grump; if you have any hope of grasping my half of this converstion, you need to get a firm grip on your own half...go back and reread the thread, slowly, move your lips if you have to.

Despite your inability you follow your own half of the converstion, or that I answered your questions, I will answer these new questions as well: the First United States Congress, in 1791, decided which rights were to be enumerated, and they did so in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of the powers granted to the Government through the Constitution, and they thought, at the time, that those amendments were sufficient to the task.

Finally! The answer I was after. It took you this long? Why?

Because you finally asked the question you wanted a particular answer for.

Because, as I have said, you are more interested in other things - like being "Big Sensai on Campus" and trying to show lurkers just what a Brainiac you are on the subject...:clap2:

This is what I mean by a fucktard trying to assign their farcical motives to my arguments.

Now your ego has been satiated with being a Know-All and we are now in awe of your intellect,...

Continue on Mr. Fucktardo.

...do you care to answer any other questions? Because the above cries out for more questions to be answered.

Sure.

Why only those rights are to be enumerated?

I already answered this...in the last post, you imbecile.


What gave them the right to decide what rights were to be enumerated?

No one, it wasn't a right--they were empowered by The People to do so, through empowerment of their Representatives in Congress.

They were gods?

No.

You are also sending mixed messages (IMO).

Is that your expert opinion, or are you just a fucktard who can't follow his own conversation?

Are you saying that the amendments just protect those enumerated rights,...

I have already clealy explained this to you, providing citation and links.

...so therefore more amendments can do the same to new rights?

Enumerated rights, being rights, are protected.

It's not so clear that you understand what <a href="http://www.fallacyfiles.org/adhomine.html">ad hominem</a> is, I do not consider myself the last word on everything, there is no chip on my shoulder, and I have no problem getting along with people--so long as those people are not persistently mendacious dumbfucks; they don't appreciate being outed.

Sure you like being the last word. I have seen you post too often to too many different people on the board and it always ends the same with you. Ad hominem's on those that disagree with you. And, um, your link spells out exactly what an ad hominem is, and yes, you started playing the preson (remember the tosser remark?)

Name calling, dipshit, is not <a href="http://www.fallacyfiles.org/adhomine.html">ad hominem</a>--among otherthings, it is assigning motives to arguments as a meams to refute arguments. BRAVO, FUCKTARD!:clap2:

Secondly, "tosser" came after ""smartarse" and "bore".

Thanks for playing, retard.

...Yeah, we're all dumbfucks and you make Einstein look like and advertisement for Retardsville....

That may be so, but I don't say so, and I don't use it in an attempt to refute the arguments made by dumbfucks from retardsville.

No, you're supposed to get the point. Hope springs ever eternal.

Nothing to do with any point. It was about guessing your tone.

Which, apparently, is more comfortable than adressing the point. :eusa_think:

No, actually you're wrong; experise does not magically embue one with some immunity from being full of shit--hence, your argument (regarding argument from authority) is patently invalid.

Where did I say expertise magically embued anybody with anything?
<blockquote><i>"When somebody is giving evidence with regard to their expertise, it is always on the subject they are an expert on - hence, you argument is invalid"</i></blockquote>Does that look familiar?

I said it lends creedence to their credibility, and if you don't get that, then you certainly are mentally challenged.

I get that, and I said that being an expert does not make one immune from being full of shit, and if you don't get that, then you certainly are mentally challenged.

If you think attorney's in a court case on fraud are going to get an expert on the Canadian salmon to aid their cause, then I've got a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.

What?

And it sounds like your "argument from authority" claptrap was written by somebody who got their arse handed to them on a plate by an expert.

Fine, try this on, retard: Argument From Authority. Or this. Or this.

I don't give an inch to fucktards trying to put words in my mouth, or assign their farcical motives to my arguments.

Yeah, you do.

I don't.

And I've put no words in your mouth[/b]<blockquote><i>"I'd rather you not bring up people who are actually professionals oan a given subject because I am the all-knowing dickhead on this subject, and real people, who have studied the subject for a living, couldn't possibly know more than me."</i></blockquote>Look at all familiar?

Speak for yourself. I clearly state where simply stating my opinion is simply stating my opinion, and I have clearly stated when my opinion is irrelevent (even in this particular thread)--when I say something that is fact, I back it up. Try it on for size.

Give me an example of what you have said is an opinion in this thread and that it has been irrelevent

Example where I've stated opinion a matter, and where I've stated my opinion on a matter was irrelevent.

Ready to STFU now?
 
Actually, I am ready to Shut the Fuck Up, Loki. Not because of anything you've said, just can't be bothered with these long-winded threads that seem to go on and on with you. As far as I can see you have more luck holding a can of coke than your side of the coversation. As I stated you are more interested in the win and you just love the last word, so have at it then.....Loser...

as for ad hominem, here's the dictionary definition, Loser

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ad&#37;20hominem

Notice the second description and note the Latin interpretation further on down...try again..harder next time...:cuckoo:..
 
Oh, BTW, Loki, your three links re Appeal to Authority prove nothing. Not a damn thing. I was never "appealing to authority" in my argument. Go back ad reread (YET AGAIN) what was being said...
 
Actually, I am ready to Shut the Fuck Up, Loki. Not because of anything you've said, just can't be bothered with these long-winded threads that seem to go on and on with you. As far as I can see you have more luck holding a can of coke than your side of the coversation. As I stated you are more interested in the win and you just love the last word, so have at it then.....Loser...

as for ad hominem, here's the dictionary definition, Loser

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ad hominem

Notice the second description and note the Latin interpretation further on down...try again..harder next time...:cuckoo:..

BRAVO! :clap2:

You should actually read that yourself, and then consider who is ignoring the points of the argument in favor of discussion of "character", not to mention "tone" and "motives".

Oh, BTW, Loki, your three links re Appeal to Authority prove nothing. Not a damn thing. I was never "appealing to authority" in my argument. Go back ad reread (YET AGAIN) what was being said...
<blockquote><i>"Jillian is a lawyer and agrees with me."</i></blockquote>Look familiar, retard?
 
BRAVO! :clap2: You should actually read that yourself, and then consider who is ignoring the points of the argument in favor of discussion of "character", not to mention "tone" and "motives".

Oh, so now you are admitting that you were wrong with regard to the meaning of ad hominem? Wouldn't be the first time you have been wrong, whether you admit it is another thing. Psychos who think they are right all the time never do..go figure...

<blockquote><i>"Jillian is a lawyer and agrees with me."</i></blockquote>Look familiar, retard?

Which has got what to do with your links? Are you now saying Jillian has no credibility as an expert witness on the law, Loser? Ditto me with regard to criminals considering I have spent time interviewing, arresting them? All your links did was state certain things about expert witnesses. Big fucking deal. None disproved that Jillians's or my experiences were "appealing" to anything. Care to try again. harder this time.
BTW, it's not lost on me the hyprocrisy of your links. You are now trying the "Appeal to Authority" angle by providing links, which is your own attempt to appeal to authority to prove YOUR point. Difference is, I am an ex-cop and Jillian is a lawyer. What expertise do the people in your links have on the theory of "appealing to authority" to give any credibility to your argument?
 
Oh, so now you are admitting that you were wrong with regard to the meaning of ad hominem? Wouldn't be the first time you have been wrong, whether you admit it is another thing. Psychos who think they are right all the time never do..go figure...

Grump; if you have any hope of grasping my half of this converstion, you need to get a firm grip on your own half; I'm actually pointing out that I was absolutely correct regarding ad-hominem, your definition confirms it, and ironically describes exactly what you've been up to.

Also, you should reconsider your ad-hominem strategy in light of your patent break with reality.

Which has got what to do with your links? Are you now saying Jillian has no credibility as an expert witness on the law, Loser? Ditto me with regard to criminals considering I have spent time interviewing, arresting them? All your links did was state certain things about expert witnesses. Big fucking deal. None disproved that Jillians's or my experiences were "appealing" to anything. Care to try again. harder this time.
<blockquote>In an appeal to authority, something is claimed to be true based on the expertise of an authority rather than objective facts.</blockquote>AND<blockquote>An appeal to authority is an argument from the fact that a person judged to be an authority affirms a proposition to the claim that the proposition is true.

Appeals to authority are always deductively fallacious; even a legitimate authority speaking on his area of expertise may affirm a falsehood, so no testimony of any authority is guaranteed to be true.</blockquote>AND<blockquote>An appeal to authority or argument by authority is a type of argument in logic consisting on basing the truth value of an assertion on the authority, knowledge, expertise, or position of the person asserting it. It is also known as argument from authority, argumentum ad verecundiam (Latin: argument to respect) or ipse dixit (Latin: he himself said it). It is one method of obtaining propositional knowledge, but a fallacy in regard to logic, because the validity of a claim does not follow from the credibility of the source.</blockquote>AND<blockquote>An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form:

>grump's appeal to authority, paraphrased<
1. I'm a cop, and Jillian is a Lawyer; we are experts on criminals and the Law.
2. We assert that criminals are stupid, and gun registration prevents them from getting guns.
3. Therefore, criminals are stupid, and gun registration prevents them from getting guns.
>/grump's appeal to authority<

It should be noted that even a good Appeal to Authority is not an exceptionally strong argument. After all, in such cases a claim is being accepted as true simply because a person is asserting that it is true. The person may be an expert, but her expertise does not really bear on the truth of the claim. This is because the expertise of a person does not actually determine whether the claim is true or false. Hence, arguments that deal directly with evidence relating to the claim itself will tend to be stronger.</blockquote>
BTW, it's not lost on me the hyprocrisy of your links. You are now trying the "Appeal to Authority" angle by providing links, which is your own attempt to appeal to authority to prove YOUR point.

Before you try to use big words like "hypocrisy" and "Appeal to Authority", you should be clear on their meanings.

Difference is, I am an ex-cop and Jillian is a lawyer. What expertise do the people in your links have on the theory of "appealing to authority" to give any credibility to your argument?

"Appeal to Authority" is not a theory, it a logical fallacy--one you're attempting to invoke since the substance of your argument is weak.
 
Grump; if you have any hope of grasping my half of this converstion, you need to get a firm grip on your own half; I'm actually pointing out that I was absolutely correct regarding ad-hominem, your definition confirms it, and ironically describes exactly what you've been up to.

Also, you should reconsider your ad-hominem strategy in light of your patent break with reality.

<blockquote>In an appeal to authority, something is claimed to be true based on the expertise of an authority rather than objective facts.</blockquote>AND<blockquote>An appeal to authority is an argument from the fact that a person judged to be an authority affirms a proposition to the claim that the proposition is true.

Appeals to authority are always deductively fallacious; even a legitimate authority speaking on his area of expertise may affirm a falsehood, so no testimony of any authority is guaranteed to be true.</blockquote>AND<blockquote>An appeal to authority or argument by authority is a type of argument in logic consisting on basing the truth value of an assertion on the authority, knowledge, expertise, or position of the person asserting it. It is also known as argument from authority, argumentum ad verecundiam (Latin: argument to respect) or ipse dixit (Latin: he himself said it). It is one method of obtaining propositional knowledge, but a fallacy in regard to logic, because the validity of a claim does not follow from the credibility of the source.</blockquote>AND<blockquote>An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form:

>grump's appeal to authority, paraphrased<
1. I'm a cop, and Jillian is a Lawyer; we are experts on criminals and the Law.
2. We assert that criminals are stupid, and gun registration prevents them from getting guns.
3. Therefore, criminals are stupid, and gun registration prevents them from getting guns.
>/grump's appeal to authority<

It should be noted that even a good Appeal to Authority is not an exceptionally strong argument. After all, in such cases a claim is being accepted as true simply because a person is asserting that it is true. The person may be an expert, but her expertise does not really bear on the truth of the claim. This is because the expertise of a person does not actually determine whether the claim is true or false. Hence, arguments that deal directly with evidence relating to the claim itself will tend to be stronger.</blockquote>

Before you try to use big words like "hypocrisy" and "Appeal to Authority", you should be clear on their meanings.



"Appeal to Authority" is not a theory, it a logical fallacy--one you're attempting to invoke since the substance of your argument is weak.

I said an ad hominem attacked the man. You then claimed I didn't know the definition. My definition says exactly that, as does the literal Latin translation. Make up your mind what side of the fence you are on.

I have never claimed to be an expert on anything. Weren't you the one bitching about words being put in your mouth? I have life experiences that add to my side of the argument. Maybe you are a criminal lawyer and have had dealings with criminals, too? Well, have you? That would add weight to your argument with regard to how you see criminals. And your "paraphrase" is all up the wazoo, because I have never mentioned gun registration, and do not believe registration is even viable.

As for your Appeal to Authority, you didn't comment on the fact you're doing exactly that (appealing to authority) to bolster your argument on that exact subject. So, yes that is called hypocrisy, as well as stupidity.

Your Appeal to Authority argument has many weaknesses, one of which is that one of the arguments is that "The person may be an expert, but her expertise does not really bear on the truth of the claim." But what if their expertise does bear truth of the claim and they can back it up?

Which part of my argument is weak.?
 
I said an ad hominem attacked the man. You then claimed I didn't know the definition. My definition says exactly that, as does the literal Latin translation. Make up your mind what side of the fence you are on.
This is what you said, exactly:<blockquote><I>"as for ad hominem, here's the dictionary definition, Loser

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ad&#37;20hominem

Notice the second description and note the Latin interpretation further on down...try again..harder next time...:cuckoo:..</i>"</blockquote>This is the second description of the first definition offered from your link:<blockquote><i>"2. attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument."</i></blockquote>And this is the second definition offered from your link:<blockquote><i>" Appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason: Debaters should avoid ad hominem arguments that question their opponents' motives."</i></blockquote>Both of which, ironically describes exactly what you've been up to.

I have never claimed to be an expert on anything. Weren't you the one bitching about words being put in your mouth? I have life experiences that add to my side of the argument.

I apologize if I misconstrued your argument from authority to have derived from some kind of expertise.

Maybe you are a criminal lawyer and have had dealings with criminals, too? Well, have you? That would add weight to your argument with regard to how you see criminals.

Maybe I am a criminal lawyer, and maybe I'm a judge, but that doesn't change the fact that the expertise of a person does not actually determine whether the claim is true or false. This is why I am not invoking an argument from authority--they are not valid.

And your "paraphrase" is all up the wazoo, because I have never mentioned gun registration, and do not believe registration is even viable.

Excuse me, I should have said, "background check."

As for your Appeal to Authority, you didn't comment on the fact you're doing exactly that (appealing to authority) to bolster your argument on that exact subject.

I am not.

So, yes that is called hypocrisy, as well as stupidity.

Research your terms.

Your Appeal to Authority argument has many weaknesses, one of which is that one of the arguments is that "The person may be an expert, but her expertise does not really bear on the truth of the claim." But what if their expertise does bear truth of the claim and they can back it up?

What if?

<i>"It should be noted that even a good Appeal to Authority is not an exceptionally strong argument. After all, in such cases a claim is being accepted as true simply because a person is asserting that it is true. The person may be an expert, but her expertise does not really bear on the truth of the claim. This is because the expertise of a person does not actually determine whether the claim is true or false."</i>

I don't accept your authority, because authorities can be as full of shit as anyone else, and you have not backed up your claim.

Which part of my argument is weak.?

<a href="http://www.usmessageboard.com/showthread.php?p=673364#post673364">I&#8217;d suggest there are quite a few people alive today who otherwise would not be due to background checks.</a>

...because...

...<a href="http://www.usmessageboard.com/showthread.php?p=676120#post676120">[the criminal] didn't get a gun when they wanted to,</a> which is the point of a background check

This argument presumes that criminally violent nut-jobs submit themselves to background checks when they are stealing, or obtaining guns by other illegal means; a background check really ony prevents a criminal from getting a gun from WHERE he wanted to--which is the real point of background checks, isn't it?
 
I just want to jump in on the "appeal to authority" issue... seems to me that you're saying that no one's expertise is good enough to overcome your own opinion. I would hope, like most of us, you simply choose those you believe *most* as opposed to saying no one but you knows what they're talking about.
 
I just want to jump in on the "appeal to authority" issue... seems to me that you're saying that no one's expertise is good enough to overcome your own opinion.

This has nothing to do with my opinion.

<i>"The expertise of a person does not actually determine whether the claim is true or false."</i>

Example: Tammy is a Supreme Court Justice; Tammy says that a State Established Reiligion is Constititional provided Congress makes a law establishing that Religion; therefore, Congess Establishing a State Religion is Constitutional.

No one argues that a Supreme Court Justice has expertise with the Constitution--yet, HOLY FUCK! Being an expert doen't make Tammy fucking right, does it? Tammy's authority on the Constitution, nor her authority as a Supreme Court Judge, has any bearing on the claim (that Congress Establishing a State Religion is Constitutional) being true or false--her claim is STILL subject to rational scrutiny. Nobody is seriously accepting the notion that Congress Establishing a State Religion is Constitutional BECAUSE Supreme Court Justice Tammy says so.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBuPQgV8yBM"]Dr Grump[/ame] thought to toss around his (unverified, mind you) [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLsg0EvZozI"]authority as a cop[/ame], as if it had bearing on the point; and then tossed <b>your</b> (also unverified) authority (as a lawyer) in, as if your agreement with him was some magical validating force regarding the point in contention.

As if handing down determinations from lofty positions validates those determinations. Fuck that bullshit.

I would hope, like most of us, you simply choose those you believe *most* as opposed to saying no one but you knows what they're talking about.

I'm not saying no one but me knows what they're talking about (unfortunate you should suggest the little myth the retards around here like to recite when their dumb gets exposed)--what I AM saying is that you have to demonstrate you know what you're talking about by presenting valid facts and validly logical arguments, rather than unverified, and frankly irrelevent, authority.
 
But in the practical world of law and order, if you want gun registration (which is already a widely accepted practice) to be declared unconstitutional, it's gonna be up to YOUR side or the fence to demonstrate it as such. The regulators already have their foot in the door, man.
This is, of course, not so.
The right to arms is a fundamental right of the people specifically protected by the constitution. As such, strict scrutiny applies. Under this, the state must that the restriction in question does -not- violate the constitutition.
 
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This is what will happen to your guns if Obama is our next president. Say good-bye to all of the fun stuff. I guess I'll have to convince my wife to let me by an assault rifle before they're banned. LOL...:eusa_dance:
Does this surprise anyone?
Is there a liberal that -doesn't- suppprt banning assault weapons, gun regisration, etc?

I'm a conservative who frankly questions why anyone needs an assault rifle. Just wondering...

And if they can get you credit score on-demand... why not your criminal record for purposes of buying a firearm?
 
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I'm a conservative who frankly questions why anyone needs an assault rifle. Just wondering...
You have the right to own one. Thus, you need show 'need' to no one.

And if they can get you credit score on-demand... why not your criminal record for purposes of buying a firearm?
The technicnal ability to do so is irrelevant -- background chscks are a from of prior restraint. As such, they infringe the right to arms. The right to arms shall not be infringed.
 

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