Obama 53% McCain 39%

[Caligirl]

Michael, what is your opinion on the IRA and on Zion?

 

[Navy1960]

Oh really ..

You think maybe these guys need to be educated on the Vietnam War as well ... some of whom were POW's with John Mccain

Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain

His collaboration with the Vietnamese is a matter of record.

I suggest that it is you who needs more study brother.

I am well aware of Phil Butler's comments on John McCain what part of his comments makes you believe that John McCains past is not true? What Phil Butler is saying is that John McCain has allowed his POW experience to made out to be like he was the only one and in fact there were many treated just like like him. He also asserts that John McCain is too old to be president. So again what part of this leads you to the assertion other than the comments made by the NVA guards that John McCain made all this up and collaborated with anyone? If you even look at the time lines that Phil Butler was talking about in 1969 after the Ho died then bad treatment stopped according to Phil Butler however, John McCain was shot down in 1967. I suggest you do a little more reading of real history, as I stated earlier BaC there is plenty to get upset with John McCain over his Military record is not one of them. I will agree he was somewhat of a hotdog in his earlier career, however, I cannot agree and his record supports it that he was anything but honorable as a POW. Did you know after his release from prision BaC and after all his therapy John McCain went back to the Navy and qualified in type on an F-8 which is no easy task.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

McCain didn't collaborate with the Vietnamese?

Oh really ...

US Documents pertaining to McCain?s COLLABORATIONS with the Communist

By the way these guys are mostly REPUBLICANS

 

[bigdaddygtr]

Oh really ..

You think maybe these guys need to be educated on the Vietnam War as well ... some of whom were POW's with John Mccain

Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain

His collaboration with the Vietnamese is a matter of record.

I suggest that it is you who needs more study brother.

Ouch, hey Navy, doesn't help your cause when other Vets are providing this info

 

[del]

Ouch, hey Navy, doesn't help your cause when other Vets are providing this info

yeah, it's on the internet, it must be true

 

[WhiteLion]

Well, I see your up to your full anti-american form today Michael. I often wonder if your hatred for our country might mask some sort of envy because your green card was turned down and this is the only way you can shout your disapproval? With so many problem in merry old England you would think you would have enough on your plate to focus your attentions on your own country, but at the very least your good for a laugh of two. The last time we spoke you were a Banker there in London , so I see in this post you have had a career change. You went from being a respected Banker in London to a respected Academic in a matter of weeks? Your abilities continue to astound me Michael.

And then some...

 

[bigdaddygtr]

yeah, it's on the internet, it must be true

So, I should listen to you over other Vets who were there? No thanks

 

[BlackAsCoal]

I am well aware of Phil Butler's comments on John McCain what part of his comments makes you believe that John McCains past is not true? What Phil Butler is saying is that John McCain has allowed his POW experience to made out to be like he was the only one and in fact there were many treated just like like him. He also asserts that John McCain is too old to be president. So again what part of this leads you to the assertion other than the comments made by the NVA guards that John McCain made all this up and collaborated with anyone? If you even look at the time lines that Phil Butler was talking about in 1969 after the Ho died then bad treatment stopped according to Phil Butler however, John McCain was shot down in 1967. I suggest you do a little more reading of real history, as I stated earlier BaC there is plenty to get upset with John McCain over his Military record is not one of them. I will agree he was somewhat of a hotdog in his earlier career, however, I cannot agree and his record supports it that he was anything but honorable as a POW. Did you know after his release from prision BaC and after all his therapy John McCain went back to the Navy and qualified in type on an F-8 which is no easy task.

I understand the desire to support a fellow Navy officer, but it ain't just Butler saying what is known.

Ask many members of the families of POW's

Did you know that McCain also went on to become the best friend the VC government has ever had in Congress?

I don't wish to make an enemy of you as I think you're an excellent poster .. but there is a record my brother

 

[del]

So, I should listen to you over other Vets who were there? No thanks

yeah, that's exactly what i said, dolt.

 

[Navy1960]

Well let me see if I can address this a different way then, first Phil Butler who I have seen and know, did not say what you are claiming, even in the video he doesn't say that John McCain was a did not receive torture. As for the collaboration part, did it occur to you that the Military code of Conduct was not Followed after torture? Did it also occur to you that this happened all to frequently not only to John McCain but to just about every American captured or shot down during the War and expecially those shot down in the North before 1970. So if you wish to call someone under torture a collaborator to further your political agenda then far be from me to enlighten you as to what really happen and take away from your revisionist historical view of it.

The most systematic torture of American POWs during the conflict began in fall 1965 and didn't end until fall 1969, when the Nixon Administration finally went public with evidence of the mistreatment. An estimated 95 percent of the prisoners in the North experienced some form of torture.

Navy Lt. j.g. Rodney A. Knutson, a radar intercept officer captured with pilot Lt. j.g. Ralph E. Gaither when their F-4 was shot down on Oct. 17, 1965, got an early taste of what lay ahead. His captors bound his arms so tightly that they lost circulation. He was denied food and water. He was beaten. When he still refused to cooperate, his torturers moved on to a new, more sinister method-the "rope torture." Knutson was subjected to this technique on Oct. 25, 1965. The prisoner was forced face down onto a bunk with his ankles in stocks and a rope tied at his elbows, with the rope then pulled up to run through a hook in the ceiling. The guard hoisted the prisoner off the bunk so he could not ease any of his weight-producing extreme pain and constricting breathing.

USAF Capt. Konrad W. Trautman suffered the rope torture on a dozen occasions. "The pain is literally beyond description," said Trautman, who was shot down and captured Oct. 5, 1967. "After about 10 or 15 minutes in this position, tied up so tightly, your nerves in your arms are pinched off, and then your whole upper torso becomes numb. It's a relief. You feel no more pain. ... However when they release the ropes, the procedure works completely in reverse. It's almost like double jeopardy-you go through the same pain coming out of the ropes as you did going in."

In 1967, the propaganda war continued as USAF Lt. Col. James Hughes was paraded through Hanoi visibly injured the day after his capture. Such scenes backfired, resulting in international revulsion at the prisoners' mistreatment.


VietnamWar.com:Vietnam War - POW - MIA Honor Bound, A Pentagon study provides new details--about bravery, torture, and endurance.

 

[Navy1960]

I understand the desire to support a fellow Navy officer, but it ain't just Butler saying what is known.

Ask many members of the families of POW's

Did you know that McCain also went on to become the best friend the VC government has ever had in Congress?

I don't wish to make an enemy of you as I think you're an excellent poster .. but there is a record my brother

The one thing I will ALWAYS defend is my brothers that I had the high privledge of flying with during that very same war BaC. I am also aware that he has done a lot to open up our relations to Vietnam which I completely agree with. I think to shut off a country and not to heal wounds from the past is a big mistake. I also think that the POW/MIA communities image of John McCain stems from the very same thing that Phil Butler was talking about and that is that John McCain has become the celebrity POW when there were many many POW's that endured the same torture that he endured and some far beyond John McCain, so I can see where that resentment comes from. Further, John McCain has done little in his congressional career to help the families of MIA's from what I have seen. Still to me it does not mean that he as not honorable, he got on the same plane leaving the North that many others did. So I will I am sorry have to disagree with your assertions on this one BaC, as I choose to look at it with a very different view and yes you could say I have a little bit of a bias when doing so I suppose.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

Well let me see if I can address this a different way then, first Phil Butler who I have seen and know, did not say what you are claiming, even in the video he doesn't say that John McCain was a did not receive torture. As for the collaboration part, did it occur to you that the Military code of Conduct was not Followed after torture? Did it also occur to you that this happened all to frequently not only to John McCain but to just about every American captured or shot down during the War and expecially those shot down in the North before 1970. So if you wish to call someone under torture a collaborator to further your political agenda then far be from me to enlighten you as to what really happen and take away from your revisionist historical view of it.

The most systematic torture of American POWs during the conflict began in fall 1965 and didn't end until fall 1969, when the Nixon Administration finally went public with evidence of the mistreatment. An estimated 95 percent of the prisoners in the North experienced some form of torture.

Navy Lt. j.g. Rodney A. Knutson, a radar intercept officer captured with pilot Lt. j.g. Ralph E. Gaither when their F-4 was shot down on Oct. 17, 1965, got an early taste of what lay ahead. His captors bound his arms so tightly that they lost circulation. He was denied food and water. He was beaten. When he still refused to cooperate, his torturers moved on to a new, more sinister method-the "rope torture." Knutson was subjected to this technique on Oct. 25, 1965. The prisoner was forced face down onto a bunk with his ankles in stocks and a rope tied at his elbows, with the rope then pulled up to run through a hook in the ceiling. The guard hoisted the prisoner off the bunk so he could not ease any of his weight-producing extreme pain and constricting breathing.

USAF Capt. Konrad W. Trautman suffered the rope torture on a dozen occasions. "The pain is literally beyond description," said Trautman, who was shot down and captured Oct. 5, 1967. "After about 10 or 15 minutes in this position, tied up so tightly, your nerves in your arms are pinched off, and then your whole upper torso becomes numb. It's a relief. You feel no more pain. ... However when they release the ropes, the procedure works completely in reverse. It's almost like double jeopardy-you go through the same pain coming out of the ropes as you did going in."

In 1967, the propaganda war continued as USAF Lt. Col. James Hughes was paraded through Hanoi visibly injured the day after his capture. Such scenes backfired, resulting in international revulsion at the prisoners' mistreatment.


VietnamWar.com:Vietnam War - POW - MIA Honor Bound, A Pentagon study provides new details--about bravery, torture, and endurance.

I was in the military during the Vietnam War. I don't dispute a single thing you've said about the torture of many of our soldiers .. nor do I suggest that under the same circumstances I would not have done as McCain did and said exactly what they wanted to hear .. however, that does not make McCain, nor would it have made me a "war hero"

Most people have bought into his war hero schtick without ever questioning its truth. I read a post here today that siad McCain was so tortured that they broke every bone in his body.

As I said, his collaboration is a matter of record and there are a lot of vets, POW's and their families who have been shut out of public discourse on McCain ...

Sampley, a Vietnam Veteran and former Green Beret, issued a CHALLENGE to John McCain "If you can show us that the information presented in our mailer is untruthful . . . we will Stand Down"

This CHALLENGE was issued during an interview with INSIDE EDITION on January 17, 2008.

John, family members of Vietnam POW/MIA(s) have been waiting for more then 14 years for you to have the courage to face them eye to eye in front of the American Public - Here is your opportunity for some "STRAIGHT TALK." Stop hiding behind your fabricated "War Hero" persona. You know we can prove your collaborations with declassified government documents . . . It is time for the American people to get to know the REAL John McCain - the John McCain that the POW/MIA families witnessed during the 1991-93 US Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs .

Bring It On John!
Here is our number
252-527-0442
MUNICH - AND A LITTLE BIT OF EVERYTHING: VIETNAM VETERANS AGAINST JOHN MCCAIN

Did you witness those hearings? .. I did ..

John McCain is a privledged guy who was a bad student, worse pilot, and who rode his unfortunate bad flying into the Senate.

I don't hate him .. he just is not what he appears and is hardly suited to be the president.

 

[Navy1960]

I was in the military during the Vietnam War. I don't dispute a single thing you've said about the torture of many of our soldiers .. nor do I suggest that under the same circumstances I would not have done as McCain did and said exactly what they wanted to hear .. however, that does not make McCain, nor would it have made me a "war hero"

Most people have bought into his war hero schtick without ever questioning its truth. I read a post here today that siad McCain was so tortured that they broke every bone in his body.

As I said, his collaboration is a matter of record and there are a lot of vets, POW's and their families who have been shut out of public discourse on McCain ...

Sampley, a Vietnam Veteran and former Green Beret, issued a CHALLENGE to John McCain "If you can show us that the information presented in our mailer is untruthful . . . we will Stand Down"

This CHALLENGE was issued during an interview with INSIDE EDITION on January 17, 2008.

John, family members of Vietnam POW/MIA(s) have been waiting for more then 14 years for you to have the courage to face them eye to eye in front of the American Public - Here is your opportunity for some "STRAIGHT TALK." Stop hiding behind your fabricated "War Hero" persona. You know we can prove your collaborations with declassified government documents . . . It is time for the American people to get to know the REAL John McCain - the John McCain that the POW/MIA families witnessed during the 1991-93 US Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs .

Bring It On John!
Here is our number
252-527-0442
MUNICH - AND A LITTLE BIT OF EVERYTHING: VIETNAM VETERANS AGAINST JOHN MCCAIN

Did you witness those hearings? .. I did ..

John McCain is a privledged guy who was a bad student, worse pilot, and who rode his unfortunate bad flying into the Senate.

I don't hate him .. he just is not what he appears and is hardly suited to be the president.

Let me see if I can put this into a some perspective, first as a retired Naval Aviator I a little bit, well more than a little bit of affection for any Aviator or as the Air Farce calls them lol, pilots that served so honorably. Now, BaC I think you assume from a false assumption that I am somehow going to be voting for McCain, which I am not. Secondly, I also tend to agree with Phil Butler that John McCain has elevated his POW status into "hero status" at the expense of other POW's who served just as honorably as he has. However, this does not at least in my mind, and from the records I have seen and the people I know, including Ed Alvarez who all have said that John McCain served with honor and was no different than any of the other POW's in that respect. As for his Aviation abilities, to me at least, John McCain was a "hotdog" spending more time at the O-club and chasing tail than he did an Aviator. That is just an observation, as I never ran across John McCain expect to hear of him in the Aviation community. I can tell you though, just about everyone knew his old man. I tend to disagree with these assertions that John McCain somehow is this image of collaboration. I rather think this has a LOT to do with his image of being the only POW war hero when there were many. Another thing to consider here too, to call a fellow POW a collaborator , expecially after knowing the terrible conditions that they suffered through is rather like a racecar driver complaining that the other guys were going too fast when they all were.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

Let me see if I can put this into a some perspective, first as a retired Naval Aviator I a little bit, well more than a little bit of affection for any Aviator or as the Air Farce calls them lol, pilots that served so honorably. Now, BaC I think you assume from a false assumption that I am somehow going to be voting for McCain, which I am not. Secondly, I also tend to agree with Phil Butler that John McCain has elevated his POW status into "hero status" at the expense of other POW's who served just as honorably as he has. However, this does not at least in my mind, and from the records I have seen and the people I know, including Ed Alvarez who all have said that John McCain served with honor and was no different than any of the other POW's in that respect. As for his Aviation abilities, to me at least, John McCain was a "hotdog" spending more time at the O-club and chasing tail than he did an Aviator. That is just an observation, as I never ran across John McCain expect to hear of him in the Aviation community. I can tell you though, just about everyone knew his old man. I tend to disagree with these assertions that John McCain somehow is this image of collaboration. I rather think this has a LOT to do with his image of being the only POW war hero when there were many. Another thing to consider here too, to call a fellow POW a collaborator , expecially after knowing the terrible conditions that they suffered through is rather like a racecar driver complaining that the other guys were going too fast when they all were.

I appreciate your perspective .. there is always something to learn from people with experience .. and I actually assumed that you were not voting for Mccain based on your comments in this thread and others you've made in others. As I said earlier, I respect you.

Frankly, I don't really spend much time challenging McCain's war record, although I have read the documents and know he isn't the hero he pretends to be. But, whether he's a "hero" or not has little to do with Americans losing their homes and their jobs .. so generally, I leave it alone.

However, neither does ACORN, William Ayers who committed his act when Obama was 8 years old, birth certificates, or any of the other nonsense being spouted by the right have a damn thing to do with what ails this nation.

I don't even support Obama but the right is hardly in any position to sling mud.

McCain is a bit nutty, but I think he's a relatively decent man and I don't think he's the racist he's been made out to be .. but he is nutty.

I think a case can be made that America would be better off with a divided government than it being completely controlled by one party. I don't have any confidence that democrats are any better at it than republicans.

If you ever get around to listening to those hearings, I'd like to know what you think.

 

[Navy1960]

I appreciate your perspective .. there is always something to learn from people with experience .. and I actually assumed that you were not voting for Mccain based on your comments in this thread and others you've made in others. As I said earlier, I respect you.

Frankly, I don't really spend much time challenging McCain's war record, although I have read the documents and know he isn't the hero he pretends to be. But, whether he's a "hero" or not has little to do with Americans losing their homes and their jobs .. so generally, I leave it alone.

However, neither does ACORN, William Ayers who committed his act when Obama was 8 years old, birth certificates, or any of the other nonsense being spouted by the right have a damn thing to do with what ails this nation.

I don't even support Obama but the right is hardly in any position to sling mud.

McCain is a bit nutty, but I think he's a relatively decent man and I don't think he's the racist he's been made out to be .. but he is nutty.

I think a case can be made that America would be better off with a divided government than it being completely controlled by one party. I don't have any confidence that democrats are any better at it than republicans.

If you ever get around to listening to those hearings, I'd like to know what you think.

I will be happy to get back to you on them and I am in complete agreement that one single party should not control all the Hill and the White House. It tends to lead to one party running roughshod over the country and with at least some division you have some checks and balances in place. This applies to whatever party happens to be in power. I don't think for a moment that Washington has had the interests of the people they represent at heart above their own self interest for some time. I have come to believe that it is vital that we start to take another look at term limits for congress to rid ourselves of the people there that have no interest in doing the peoples business. I tend to think that one of biggest reasons for our countries recent ills is this Us vs. Them mentality that has so instilled itself into the minds of most of our congressmen that nothing seems to get done at the expense of us all. It is the main reason why I am going to vote for all new candidates this year regardless of party, as my way of saying it is REALLY time for a change. As for president, I am writing in a candidate, because I have no faith in the two choices presented.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

I will be happy to get back to you on them and I am in complete agreement that one single party should not control all the Hill and the White House. It tends to lead to one party running roughshod over the country and with at least some division you have some checks and balances in place. This applies to whatever party happens to be in power. I don't think for a moment that Washington has had the interests of the people they represent at heart above their own self interest for some time. I have come to believe that it is vital that we start to take another look at term limits for congress to rid ourselves of the people there that have no interest in doing the peoples business. I tend to think that one of biggest reasons for our countries recent ills is this Us vs. Them mentality that has so instilled itself into the minds of most of our congressmen that nothing seems to get done at the expense of us all. It is the main reason why I am going to vote for all new candidates this year regardless of party, as my way of saying it is REALLY time for a change. As for president, I am writing in a candidate, because I have no faith in the two choices presented.

Now we are in total agreement .. make that TOTAL agreement.

Say hello to your new best friend.

 

[WhiteLion]

yeah, it's on the internet, it must be true

Del i think you and BlackAsCoal need to switch avatars somebodies obviously got their head in the sand

 

[MichaelCollins]

McCain didn't collaborate with the Vietnamese?

Oh really ...

US Documents pertaining to McCain?s COLLABORATIONS with the Communist

By the way these guys are mostly REPUBLICANS

There would seem to be no doubt that McCain ...collaborated with the vietnemese rather than face any discomfort, let alone torture.

This would match the moral fibre of a man who abandoned his wife after she was disabled.. the wife who waited for and stood by the midget.... and then traded her in for a multi millionaire barby doll.

The man is very weak in moral fibre.. . and will LIE and sell his soul for votes.


Only a nut would vote for the elderly terrorist supporting midget ... with the moral fibre of a corn flake.

 

[MichaelCollins]

Well let me see if I can address this a different way then, first Phil Butler who I have seen and know, did not say what you are claiming, even in the video he doesn't say that John McCain was a did not receive torture. As for the collaboration part, did it occur to you that the Military code of Conduct was not Followed after torture? Did it also occur to you that this happened all to frequently not only to John McCain but to just about every American captured or shot down during the War and expecially those shot down in the North before 1970. So if you wish to call someone under torture a collaborator to further your political agenda then far be from me to enlighten you as to what really happen and take away from your revisionist historical view of it.

The most systematic torture of American POWs during the conflict began in fall 1965 and didn't end until fall 1969, when the Nixon Administration finally went public with evidence of the mistreatment. An estimated 95 percent of the prisoners in the North experienced some form of torture.

Navy Lt. j.g. Rodney A. Knutson, a radar intercept officer captured with pilot Lt. j.g. Ralph E. Gaither when their F-4 was shot down on Oct. 17, 1965, got an early taste of what lay ahead. His captors bound his arms so tightly that they lost circulation. He was denied food and water. He was beaten. When he still refused to cooperate, his torturers moved on to a new, more sinister method-the "rope torture." Knutson was subjected to this technique on Oct. 25, 1965. The prisoner was forced face down onto a bunk with his ankles in stocks and a rope tied at his elbows, with the rope then pulled up to run through a hook in the ceiling. The guard hoisted the prisoner off the bunk so he could not ease any of his weight-producing extreme pain and constricting breathing.

USAF Capt. Konrad W. Trautman suffered the rope torture on a dozen occasions. "The pain is literally beyond description," said Trautman, who was shot down and captured Oct. 5, 1967. "After about 10 or 15 minutes in this position, tied up so tightly, your nerves in your arms are pinched off, and then your whole upper torso becomes numb. It's a relief. You feel no more pain. ... However when they release the ropes, the procedure works completely in reverse. It's almost like double jeopardy-you go through the same pain coming out of the ropes as you did going in."

In 1967, the propaganda war continued as USAF Lt. Col. James Hughes was paraded through Hanoi visibly injured the day after his capture. Such scenes backfired, resulting in international revulsion at the prisoners' mistreatment.


VietnamWar.com:Vietnam War - POW - MIA Honor Bound, A Pentagon study provides new details--about bravery, torture, and endurance.

McCain may have been shown this torture..or even experienced it for 3 or 4seconds... then the allegation is that he caved in and sold his friends and country for a penthouse existence in vietnam...amidst the screams and torture of his fellow prisoners..... he then went on after his release to be the biggest ally of the VC government in the US... hardly the behaviour of a bitter torture victim.....

It does sound alot like McCain behaviour... look at his record of turncoating on just about every subject ever to get votes and support across the states in his career. Look at the way that he dumped his disabled wife.

The man has the moral fibre of a corn flake... and would make a shameful President... he would make Bushretard look like a warrior for truth and justice.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

There would seem to be no doubt that McCain ...collaborated with the vietnemese rather than face any discomfort, let alone torture.

This would match the moral fibre of a man who abandoned his wife after she was disabled.. the wife who waited for and stood by the midget.... and then traded her in for a multi millionaire barby doll.

The man is very weak in moral fibre.. . and will LIE and sell his soul for votes.

Only a nut would vote for the elderly terrorist supporting midget ... with the moral fibre of a corn flake.

I draw the line at saying that McCain is a war hero. My degree is in IT, not psychology, so I don't make associations about his character based on him using a false image to further his career. What does appear true is that McCain is a calculated man .. but then again, most successful people are calculated. That's was also true of Tony Blair

I emphasize the word "most" because being calculated certainly does not apply to George Bush. He stumbled into who he became. If that motherfuckers name had been George Butterworth, he'd be working at Walmart in the Lawn and Garden section .. and he'd be happy. He rode Bush to who he is.

The Clinton's, both of them, are nothing if not calculated. That's why they married each other. Hillary is coming out NOW strong for Obama .. now that the election looks over .. but both she and Bill were hiding with tepid support when it was close. We don't know what plan B is for them, but rest assured, there is a plan B.

But the absolute Magna Cum Laude, perhaps the greatest in human history master of a calculated life, is the messiah himself, Barack Obama. I take my hat off to him he is the absolute fucking Oracle of calculation. He knew he was going to be the president when he left Harvard, and quite possibly could have known long before that. He traded the instant wealth of Wall Street for becoming president.

Went to Chicago, instead of Wall Street .. became a community organizer, joined a big church, used church influence in black politics to build his political career. Associated with everyone he needed, rose QUICKLY to run for the Senat, won by the biggest margin in Illinois history, and before his FIRST term is over in the Senate, ran for president. Associated with everybody he needed, dumped the ones he didn't, used his CALCULATED stand against the Iraq War to beat the most powerful political family in America in the last 40 years, the Clinton's, who are also extremelly calculated.

After the primary, associated with people he needed, dumped the ones he didn't, dumped the forces that swept him into the nomination, dumped the image of a progressive, dumped black people, dumped the left. The one thing he could not have calculated was the sudden crash of the economy, which was all he need to complete his BRILLIANT plan.



I salute what he has accomplished .. but, this ain't about one man's personal journey to glory. This is about the future of this nation and what we are going to be handing to our children. Obama does not stand on, or for, anything but his brilliant ass plan to glory.

Point is, McCain calculated that dumping his first wife and marrying the rich Barbie doll with the intellect of Britney Spears, was in his best interests .. and he was right.

They're all calculated .. ahh .. make that most .. and most will sell their souls for a vote. McCain is no different, no worse.

McCain dumps wives, Obama dumps friends.