NYT: No, Race Is Not Just Skin-Deep

[William Joyce]

Wow.

Big admission here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/11/u...gin&adxnnlx=1194793651-kaZYxiPheNkmXssYmLvoYQ

But many geneticists, wary of fueling discrimination and worried that speaking openly about race could endanger support for their research, are loath to discuss the social implications of their findings. Still, some acknowledge that as their data and methods are extended to nonmedical traits, the field is at what one leading researcher recently called “a very delicate time, and a dangerous time.”

“There are clear differences between people of different continental ancestries,” said Marcus W. Feldman, a professor of biological sciences at Stanford University. “It’s not there yet for things like I.Q., but I can see it coming. And it has the potential to spark a new era of racism if we do not start explaining it better.”

By "explaining," Dr. Feldman, do you mean, like, "explaining" why the husband has lipstick on his neck when he gets home from work, or "explaining" the broken cookie jar on the floor? Ah, right. That kind of "explaining."

 

[Gunny]

Wow.

Big admission here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/11/u...gin&adxnnlx=1194793651-kaZYxiPheNkmXssYmLvoYQ

But many geneticists, wary of fueling discrimination and worried that speaking openly about race could endanger support for their research, are loath to discuss the social implications of their findings. Still, some acknowledge that as their data and methods are extended to nonmedical traits, the field is at what one leading researcher recently called “a very delicate time, and a dangerous time.”

“There are clear differences between people of different continental ancestries,” said Marcus W. Feldman, a professor of biological sciences at Stanford University. “It’s not there yet for things like I.Q., but I can see it coming. And it has the potential to spark a new era of racism if we do not start explaining it better.”

By "explaining," Dr. Feldman, do you mean, like, "explaining" why the husband has lipstick on his neck when he gets home from work, or "explaining" the broken cookie jar on the floor? Ah, right. That kind of "explaining."

Pot calling the kettle black. Your "explanations" are no better. That's the problem with the entire argument. No one on either side of the issue want to look at just the facts and report them honestly without spin.

 

[William Joyce]

Pot calling the kettle black. Your "explanations" are no better. That's the problem with the entire argument. No one on either side of the issue want to look at just the facts and report them honestly without spin.

What have I been dishonest about?

You and those like you are just PISSED that the truth is starting to come out, and that the world's best scientists are backing it up. All these years, the argument has been, "All races are equal. All races are the same. Anyone who disagrees is a racist." Blah blah blah. Now that argument is DYING and heading for DEAD.

I realize that's painful.

 

[Gunny]

What have I been dishonest about?

You and those like you are just PISSED that the truth is starting to come out, and that the world's best scientists are backing it up. All these years, the argument has been, "All races are equal. All races are the same. Anyone who disagrees is a racist." Blah blah blah. Now that argument is DYING and heading for DEAD.

I realize that's painful.

Me and those like me? You might want to rethink that baseless label.

I have never ONCE said there were not differences between races.

That's a far cry from refusing to accept the baseless argument that race has any play in intellectual superiority/inferiority.

If I was going to actually get pissed about anything, it would be for being mislabelled. I'd like to know what is the difference between your dismissive attitude and those who do it to you?

 

[mattskramer]

What have I been dishonest about?

You and those like you are just PISSED that the truth is starting to come out, and that the world's best scientists are backing it up. All these years, the argument has been, "All races are equal. All races are the same. Anyone who disagrees is a racist." Blah blah blah. Now that argument is DYING and heading for DEAD.

I realize that's painful.

I admit that there is a difference. Where does the difference come from? I think that it comes from slavery, followed by discrimination, followed by generational lack of resources. Wealthy people can afford healthier diets, exercise, and self-education (all of which helps intelligence). Also, consider societal expectation. What do people in Black neighborhoods teach their children by words and deeds? Low societal expectations lead to low results. People who expect handouts are less likely to practice self-improvement than are those who think that they must strive for what they want.

I contend that if you totally control all elements and variables (each word that is told to them, what they are taught each hour, what they eat each day, what they do each day, etc) for children from different races, then statistically, will show no significant difference in IQ or other similar variables as they age.

 

[Gunny]

I admit that there is a difference. Where does the difference come from? I think that it comes from slavery, followed by discrimination, followed by generational lack of resources. Wealthy people can afford healthier diets, exercise, and self-education (all of which helps intelligence). Also, consider societal expectation. What do people in Black neighborhoods teach their children by words and deeds? Low societal expectations lead to low results. People who expect handouts are less likely to practice self-improvement than are those who think that they must strive for what they want.

I contend that if you totally control all elements and variables (each word that is told to them, what they are taught each hour, what they eat each day, what they do each day, etc) for children from different races, then statistically, will show no significant difference in IQ or other similar variables as they age.

You're speaking only to the intellectual capability argument.

There ARE very real physical differences between races, and IMO, it is to that the article points.

 

[William Joyce]

I admit that there is a difference. Where does the difference come from? I think that it comes from slavery, followed by discrimination, followed by generational lack of resources. Wealthy people can afford healthier diets, exercise, and self-education (all of which helps intelligence). Also, consider societal expectation. What do people in Black neighborhoods teach their children by words and deeds? Low societal expectations lead to low results. People who expect handouts are less likely to practice self-improvement than are those who think that they must strive for what they want.

I contend that if you totally control all elements and variables (each word that is told to them, what they are taught each hour, what they eat each day, what they do each day, etc) for children from different races, then statistically, will show no significant difference in IQ or other similar variables as they age.

But blacks in Africa have never been slaves. And they have IQ's even lower than American blacks. How do you explain that?

Asians have higher IQ's than whites. But they are minorities in the U.S. who have been discriminated against, and they often come from very poor circumstances. How do you explain that?

 

[mattskramer]

But blacks in Africa have never been slaves. And they have IQ's even lower than American blacks. How do you explain that?

Okay. Then remove the slavery variable and apply apartheid. There are still wealth differences, and differences between the nations and their resources. What is the difference in IQ between American Blacks (those born and living in America) versus African Blacks (those born and living in America)? I think that you would see a smaller IQ in African Blacks. The difference would be due to discrimination and a lack of resources available. I think that there is less enrichment activity and opportunity in Africa than in America. See an article about mice experiments that parallel my opinion on the issue of human races and opportunities:

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0009-3920(196309)34:3<745:SIIOSI>2.0.CO;2-L

Also education, societal conditioning, and expectation play a role. What is the typical education that African Blacks receive when compared with American Blacks. What type of motivation and opportunity and given to people in Africa when compared with people in America? What do Africans expect their children to grow to be?

Asians have higher IQ's than whites. But they are minorities in the U.S. who have been discriminated against, and they often come from very poor circumstances. How do you explain that?

Asians have higher IQ's than whites. But they are minorities in the U.S. who have been discriminated against, and they often come from very poor circumstances. How do you explain that?[/QUOTE]

I contend that the deference is in cultural expectation. I read an interesting piece about crime and punishment in “Chinatowns” and “Black neighborhoods”. It seems as though oriental people instill more shame and embarrassment on their children for wrongdoing when compared with Blacks. Black parents are not as interested in the moral upbringing of their children. I might sound racist. Maybe I am and maybe I’m not. I’m simply giving my opinion.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A24594-2004Jul2.html

 

[William Joyce]

I contend that the deference is in cultural expectation. I read an interesting piece about crime and punishment in “Chinatowns” and “Black neighborhoods”. It seems as though oriental people instill more shame and embarrassment on their children for wrongdoing when compared with Blacks. Black parents are not as interested in the moral upbringing of their children.

But then the question arises, "do a smart people ignore the education of their children?" I think the answer has to be "no." If a group of people is aware that a choice between A and B will have different consequences, and choice A leads to good and B to bad, and they consistently choose B, I don't know what else you can say. Any way you cut it, it's not good.

 

[mattskramer]

But then the question arises, "do a smart people ignore the education of their children?" I think the answer has to be "no." If a group of people is aware that a choice between A and B will have different consequences, and choice A leads to good and B to bad, and they consistently choose B, I don't know what else you can say. Any way you cut it, it's not good.

There are a few exceptional Black people who rise above expectations. There are a few White people who, when given practically every opportunity, fall below expectation. Still, in general, I think that societal expectation plays a big role is racial differences. There is an attitude that many people have that says that “I can never be better than I am. I will never be economically successful. The ‘big man’ always keeps me down”. There are others like the “Black Avenger” and other people who have the positive attitude that there are practically unlimited possibilities if you have determination and drive.

I think that we hammered this puppy enough. I guess that we agree to disagree. I just don’t believe that genetics plays that big a role in racial IQ differences. Other things play a larger role – especially when added up (parenting, instilling proper values, education, teaching a “can-do” attitude, financial opportunity (investment), societal and cultural expectation, diet, exercise, exposure to stimulating environments, role models, etc.)

 

[Nevadamedic]

African Americans are definantly better athletes. Being that in the majority of professional sports African Americans dominate them. The out number white people by almost 4 to 1.

 

[CharlestonChad]

African Americans are definantly better athletes. Being that in the majority of professional sports African Americans dominate them. The out number white people by almost 4 to 1.

Lower class persons see sports as a great opportunity to make something of themselves. Blacks in general have less money than the other races in America.

 

[Gunny]

Lower class persons see sports as a great opportunity to make something of themselves. Blacks in general have less money than the other races in America.

Economic environment does not explain physical superiority in general between one race and the other at playing certain sports.

 

[CharlestonChad]

Economic environment does not explain physical superiority in general between one race and the other at playing certain sports.

I figure that since there is more motivation for lower class persons to become pro atheletes, then they will try harder to cultivate their atheletic talents. If your parents cannot afford college, then they will want you to get a scholarship. Sports is a great way to go to college for free, so I think it's only natural that lower class parents would want to push their kids to be great atheletes, whereas maybe middle and upper class parents would rather see their kids focus on school work.

I used to be a standout pitcher. My parents pushed me to focus on academics, whereas some of my friends parents pushed them to focus on sports. Those guys are in college on sports scholarship, and a few of them are good enough to go pro. I'm in college on academic scholarship.

As for the physical difference, I believe that is through hard work. No one is born with the ability to run a 4.3/40.

 

[Gunny]

I figure that since there is more motivation for lower class persons to become pro atheletes, then they will try harder to cultivate their atheletic talents. If your parents cannot afford college, then they will want you to get a scholarship. Sports is a great way to go to college for free, so I think it's only natural that lower class parents would want to push their kids to be great atheletes, whereas maybe middle and upper class parents would rather see their kids focus on school work.

I used to be a standout pitcher. My parents pushed me to focus on academics, whereas some of my friends parents pushed them to focus on sports. Those guys are in college on sports scholarship, and a few of them are good enough to go pro. I'm in college on academic scholarship.

As for the physical difference, I believe that is through hard work. No one is born with the ability to run a 4.3/40.

I understand what you are saying. My point is that blacks as a whole appear to posess superior physical skills when it comes to most sports. That's genetics, not learned.

 

[William Joyce]

There are a few exceptional Black people who rise above expectations. There are a few White people who, when given practically every opportunity, fall below expectation. Still, in general, I think that societal expectation plays a big role is racial differences. There is an attitude that many people have that says that “I can never be better than I am. I will never be economically successful. The ‘big man’ always keeps me down”. There are others like the “Black Avenger” and other people who have the positive attitude that there are practically unlimited possibilities if you have determination and drive.

I think that we hammered this puppy enough. I guess that we agree to disagree. I just don’t believe that genetics plays that big a role in racial IQ differences. Other things play a larger role – especially when added up (parenting, instilling proper values, education, teaching a “can-do” attitude, financial opportunity (investment), societal and cultural expectation, diet, exercise, exposure to stimulating environments, role models, etc.)

Fair enough. I certainly agree that there are exceptional blacks who outperform whites, that there are loser whites aplenty, and that expectations can play a role. But in the end the point of our disagreement is over the extent to which genes play a role. I say a lot.

 

[Sf101]

In other words the DNA is different among different people. Old news, anyone with common sense knew that already. Besides I'm sure there must have been some good reason why the black fella next to me can eat at Macdonald's everyday and still have six pack abs while I gain weight with an energy bar.

Why don't they just say what a certain philosopher said a while back?

 

[William Joyce]

Why don't they just say what a certain philosopher said a while back?

That covers a lot of pronouncements... which one are you talking about?

 

[Annie]

In other words the DNA is different among different people. Old news, anyone with common sense knew that already. Besides I'm sure there must have been some good reason why the black fella next to me can eat at Macdonald's everyday and still have six pack abs while I gain weight with an energy bar.

Why don't they just say what a certain philosopher said a while back?

and how many energy bars is that per day? The 'black fella' is ordering a salad, fool.

 

[Sf101]

and how many energy bars is that per day? The 'black fella' is ordering a salad, fool.

Not enough to reach 500 Calories.

As for my dark skinned friend he's eating a big mac with fries and a soda regularly. Anyone with a bit of nutritional knowledge can see how suicidal(health wise) that is. Oh and you do know a salad from mickey's isn't that good for you either right? Some sport ten grams of saturated fat which if mixed with a high amount of insulin triggering carbohydrates is a bad thing. Before you ask no I'm not including the dressing.