NYC Abandons Merit Pay

[initforme]

Why not give HUGE bonuses to teachers who are deemed doing a good job. Like double their salaries, then more people want to go into the profession.

"Pretend to pay me, I pretend to work."

 

[chanel]

It doesn't work that way. A "great teacher" does not necessarily graduate with a 4.0. The only way to evaluate a teacher is to observe them for years, which is how it is done now. Shitty teachers, are denied tenure within 3 years. Probably 90 percent of teaching is learned "on the job" and according to some research the "best" teachers have around 10 years of service. They are not the rookies nor the veterans. It's not about the money.

 

[flacaltenn]

It doesn't work that way. A "great teacher" does not necessarily graduate with a 4.0. The only way to evaluate a teacher is to observe them for years, which is how it is done now. Shitty teachers, are denied tenure within 3 years. Probably 90 percent of teaching is learned "on the job" and according to some research the "best" teachers have around 10 years of service. They are not the rookies nor the veterans. It's not about the money.

Part of the problem seems to be that most teachers DO get tenure within 3 years.. And new teachers will tell you that they don't get into a rythym for at least 3 years when they are new.. Perhaps tenure ought to START at 5 or 6 years or have cases that defer even for 8 years or so...

According to the research from "Waiting for Superman"...

According to the pro-education reform documentary Waiting for ‘Superman,’ one out of every 57 doctors loses his or her license to practice medicine.

One out of every 97 lawyers loses their license to practice law.

In many major cities, only one out of 1000 teachers is fired for performance-related reasons. Why? Tenure.

You're right -- if you're Union -- it's not about the money... You've made a decision to join an organization that believes the "social contract" is more important than the money. THat you should allow your potential salary as a Great Teacher to be used to subsidize the "shitty teachers"..

That doesn't help the customers or the students...

 

[chanel]

That is not a bad idea. That would be a great compromise.

But my point is that money is not the motivator. Doubling the salary of ballerinas will not make the avg person a great dancer. Or athlete. Or musician. Teaching is an art.

 

[flacaltenn]

That is not a bad idea. That would be a great compromise.

But my point is that money is not the motivator. Doubling the salary of ballerinas will not make the avg person a great dancer. Or athlete. Or musician. Teaching is an art.

The argument is not for raising the minimum compensation.. It's for allowing exceptional performance to be rewarded and failure to have consequences..

Even the NFL players union understands that demanding a LEVEL salary for all players or dropping players according to tenure rules would ruin the ticket sales.

And I doubt that musicians would tolerate level salaries in order to promote the objectives of their profession..

 

[chanel]

The argument for merit pay is that higher salaries and/or performance bonuses will improve student achievement. The conclusion of the RAND study is that it does not.

The NFL may be able to reward players who have a good season, but no amount of money is going to make an avg player score more touchdowns. The goal of merit pay is to improve test scores. And it doesn't work.

 

[flacaltenn]

The argument for merit pay is that higher salaries and/or performance bonuses will improve student achievement. The conclusion of the RAND study is that it does not.

The NFL may be able to reward players who have a good season, but no amount of money is going to make an avg player score more touchdowns. The goal of merit pay is to improve test scores. And it doesn't work.

No no no... NOBODY is arguing or expecting that merit pay will "IMPROVE STUDENT PERFORMANCE" or "test scores".. Rand got hired to pursue a question that no one was asking.. In order to tank the concept of merit pay..

MERIT PAY is a REWARD for exceptional performance. NOT EVER a guarantee of IMPROVED performance. It was a phoney question designed to rid the the unions of this annoying interference with their rules and sensibilities..

Like I said -- those SuperBowl bonuses are NOT expected to make better players next year.. So no one needs to "study" that effect in the 1st place..

 

[chanel]

Tell that to the Gov of NJ. And to the other "reformers" out there. The purpose of merit pay is to increase student achievement. It has nothing to do with rewarding teachers. Hell - today, the majority of people think teachers make too much already.

I agree that tenure needs to be reformed. Getting fired is certainly a good motivator to do your job. But education or even any public service job, is different than the private sector. We don't pay cops for the # of arrests. We don't pay firefighters by the # of fires. People are expected to do their best every day. And some are better than others. Most teachers are concerned with discipline, autonomy, heat, supplies, etc. Better working conditions are far more important than bonuses. It's a whole different world.

Until we can define "good teacher" or "bad teacher" the whole idea of "accountability" is nothing more than teacher bashing. Believe it or not, we have many outstanding schools. And while those teachers may get paid more, the truth is that they simply have more outstanding students. Period.

 

[flacaltenn]

Chanel:

I think you've got the wrong line-up there. Maybe you were handed the wrong program at the ballpark gate or some dam thing.. The "reformers" are the ones suggesting merit pay.. Not as way to increase test scores or student performance, but just because they want to honor and retain these heroes wich-ever kind of school they are in.. Unions will stop at NOTHING to prevent this distortion within their ranks, because it breaks the bonds of "equality" for all members.

NYC is not NJ. (despite the sharing of scenic views).. Christie is a proponent of merit pay.

Student performance should count for at least 50 percent toward whether or not a teacher receives a raise or tenure, Gov. Chris Christie said during a town hall discussion in Old Bridge where he outlined a six-point plan for reforming education in the state.

Gov. Christie pushes for teacher merit pay based on students' performance | NJ.com

There's a huge difference between using student performance as PART of the criteria for deciding merit pay and EXPECTING that student performance should increase FURTHER as a result of merit pay.. Christie and reformers want the FORMER -- they do NOT EXPECT the latter.

I know that's a complicated distinction -- but it's been obscured by all the political smoke-blowing that's goin' on...

YES -- Tenure reform is a top candidate for getting better results. Especially in the larger urban districts. And I'm not a fan of using just standardized test scores to decide good/bad teachers. But the tests are absolutely required to understand how to triage the failing schools.

 

[chanel]

I don't know what "triaging the failing schools" entails. The data is available. They know which schools are failing. And while I imagine there are plenty of shitty teachers working in shitty schools, that is simply inevitable. I love teaching. But you could not offer me six figures to work in a war zone. And that's where most of these schools are. You don't try to "fix" schools that are working. One size does not fit all. And there are plenty of schools that are working. Esp. in NJ.

If you read that entire piece about Christie, he claimed that the study (which he did not read ) showed that merit pay caused a decrease in test scores. No one said that. It has NO effect.

 

[chanel]

It doesn't work that way. A "great teacher" does not necessarily graduate with a 4.0. The only way to evaluate a teacher is to observe them for years, which is how it is done now. Shitty teachers, are denied tenure within 3 years. Probably 90 percent of teaching is learned "on the job" and according to some research the "best" teachers have around 10 years of service. They are not the rookies nor the veterans. It's not about the money.

Part of the problem seems to be that most teachers DO get tenure within 3 years.. And new teachers will tell you that they don't get into a rythym for at least 3 years when they are new.. Perhaps tenure ought to START at 5 or 6 years or have cases that defer even for 8 years or so...

According to the research from "Waiting for Superman"...

According to the pro-education reform documentary Waiting for ‘Superman,’ one out of every 57 doctors loses his or her license to practice medicine.

One out of every 97 lawyers loses their license to practice law.

In many major cities, only one out of 1000 teachers is fired for performance-related reasons. Why? Tenure.

You're right -- if you're Union -- it's not about the money... You've made a decision to join an organization that believes the "social contract" is more important than the money. THat you should allow your potential salary as a Great Teacher to be used to subsidize the "shitty teachers"..

That doesn't help the customers or the students...

As recently as four years ago, the Bloomberg administration awarded 97% of teachers tenure.

But this year the city revamped the standards for principals to use in measuring teacher performance, and only 58% received tenure.

Read more: Huge drop in New York City public school teachers awarded tenure in 2011

 

[initforme]

One would get the idea here that people should teach for minimal salaries "for the love of the kids."
So keep the teachers down and subdued and you have a good educational system correct? I believe good teachers should be payed A TON, I MEAN A TON more than they are now.

 

[chanel]

Uh oh. Another "unintended consequence". It seems that the "good" teachers are leaving the "bad" schools.

A recent study by a trio of economists showed a disproportionate number of Florida teachers left schools that got lower grades in 2002 after the state changed the way it evaluated them.

The researchers call it "accountability shock." That's their term for unexpected results from shake-ups in the way students, teachers, administrators or schools are evaluated, graded, rewarded or punished

"The increased pressure probably produced some benefits but also led some teachers to move away from low-achieving schools," said Florida State University economist Tim Sass.

Read more: Researchers warn of school 'accountability shock' - Florida Wires - MiamiHerald.com

 

[editec]

Per usual people think tenure means something it doesn't.

Ya'll think it means a lifetime job where you can't get fired, don't you?

Tenure means, if you're going to get fired you get to demand a hearing.

That's really all it means for public school teachers. The right to a hearing

BFD.

Incidently...I'm informed that schools in the Bronx have a 50% techer turnover EVERY YEAR.

Does that sound like a school system rife with useless tenured teachers who are just sitting in place, kids?

REALITY...some of you need to take a look at it.

Most of you folks are tragically misinformed about this issue.

 

[chanel]

Yes and as I posted earlier - only 58% NYC teachers were granted tenure. That means 42% were FIRED. I worked in private industry for years. I can't think of one person I worked with who got fired. And some were pretty shitty employees.

Of course teaching is far more important occupation.

Oh the irony.

 

[editec]

Yes and as I posted earlier - only 58% NYC teachers were granted tenure. That means 42% were FIRED. I worked in private industry for years. I can't think of one person I worked with who got fired. And some were pretty shitty employees.

Of course teaching is far more important occupation.

Oh the irony.

It is totally ASTOUNDING how many people believe FAIRY TALES about what a cushy billet teaching is.

Education is a crappy profession -- one with low pay, lower prestige and NO JOB SECURITY.

Whenever a kid asks me, I tell them NOT to become an educator.

SChool have a 50% turnover precisely because the jobs sucks and STILL these ignoramuses think that the problem is that teachers have it too easy.

It is astounding how misinformed (and uninformAble) one must be to believe the nonsense these know-nothings believe about education.

They are mostly WILLFULLY ignroant, too.

It taKes about 5 seconds worth of Google searching to discover that everything these EDUCATING-HATING MORONS think they know about the education profession is wrong.

 

[chanel]

Well editec, I am optimist who thinks this demonization of teachers will pass in time. People are just frustrated with the price of health insurance and the high unemployment. They are just envious of what is now being portrayed as a fairy tale job. As I've stated before, whenever I hear someone start teacher bashing, I invite them to come in and observe or give a "guest lecture" and the response is always the same. "OMG! No way!" Lol