NRA: Don't ban gun sales to suspected terrorists

[Diuretic]

I'm sure the NRA receives a lot of contributions from gun manufacturers, but on the whole, I think they're driven more by idealism than money.

I couldn't say anymore because I haven't been member for years, for one reason only: once you join, they hit you up for donations on a weekly basis. I'm more than willing to pay annual dues, but they're worse than "Will Work For Food" people under the interstate overpass. EVERY cry for a donation is qualified with the 'fact" that your Second Amendment Rights hinge on that very donation.

IMO, they do themselves a disservice acting in such a manner.

Well Gunny you'd know more about the NRA than I would if I took a month of Sundays to research them but I do harbour that sneaky little suspicion that it's a very clever ploy by an industry group to maximise profits through increased sales.

Having said that, I'm not scared of firearms, I've carried one throughout my adult working life. I've owned a few private weapons. I'm all for responsible gun ownership and use of course. I know my culture is different from that of an American so I'm not going to pronounce on the Second Amendment and the rest of it.

But I still think the manufacturers are cunning bastards

 

[Gunny]

Well Gunny you'd know more about the NRA than I would if I took a month of Sundays to research them but I do harbour that sneaky little suspicion that it's a very clever ploy by an industry group to maximise profits through increased sales.

Having said that, I'm not scared of firearms, I've carried one throughout my adult working life. I've owned a few private weapons. I'm all for responsible gun ownership and use of course. I know my culture is different from that of an American so I'm not going to pronounce on the Second Amendment and the rest of it.

But I still think the manufacturers are cunning bastards

I don't think the numbers match up. People who are members of the NRA for life don't go out and buy a new gun every month. US-made guns are WAY too expensive for that. I've been a gun owner my entire adult life, and I have more than a couple, but haven't bought any new ones in several years.

Gun manufacturers get a bigger boost whenever the lefties threaten to make laws more restrictive. Everyone goes out and buys another gun "just in case." People who have put it off are galvanized into action.

Prior to the Brady Bill taking effect, I bought to semi-auto handguns just so I could have the 15 round mag capacity (the Brady Bill restricted mag capacity to 10 rds).

 

[Diuretic]

I don't think the numbers match up. People who are members of the NRA for life don't go out and buy a new gun every month. US-made guns are WAY too expensive for that. I've been a gun owner my entire adult life, and I have more than a couple, but haven't bought any new ones in several years.

Gun manufacturers get a bigger boost whenever the lefties threaten to make laws more restrictive. Everyone goes out and buys another gun "just in case." People who have put it off are galvanized into action.

Prior to the Brady Bill taking effect, I bought to semi-auto handguns just so I could have the 15 round mag capacity (the Brady Bill restricted mag capacity to 10 rds).

Okay, good points. I am now going to retreat and re-think my uber-liberal cynical views. I shall enjoy the hand-wringing session - haven't had a decent hand-wring for ages

 

[Mr.Conley]

Okay, good points. I am now going to retreat and re-think my uber-liberal cynical views. I shall enjoy the hand-wringing session - haven't had a decent hand-wring for ages

It's not necessarily an either/or question. Both statements can be true.

 

[Diuretic]

It's not necessarily an either/or question. Both statements can be true.

Sometimes you have to accept that subtlety isn't going to cut it

 

[Dirt McGirt]

Here's the bill:

Denying Firearms and Explosives to Dangerous Terrorists Act of 2007 (Introduced in Senate)

S 1237 IS

110th CONGRESS

1st Session

S. 1237

To increase public safety by permitting the Attorney General to deny the transfer of firearms or the issuance of firearms and explosives licenses to known or suspected dangerous terrorists.

IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES

April 26, 2007

Mr. LAUTENBERG introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on the Judiciary

A BILL

To increase public safety by permitting the Attorney General to deny the transfer of firearms or the issuance of firearms and explosives licenses to known or suspected dangerous terrorists.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Denying Firearms and Explosives to Dangerous Terrorists Act of 2007'.

SEC. 2. GRANTING THE ATTORNEY GENERAL THE AUTHORITY TO DENY THE SALE, DELIVERY, OR TRANSFER OF A FIREARM OR THE ISSUANCE OF A FIREARMS OR EXPLOSIVES LICENSE OR PERMIT TO DANGEROUS TERRORISTS.

(a) Standard for Exercising Attorney General Discretion Regarding Transferring Firearms or Issuing Firearms Permits to Dangerous Terrorists- Chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) by inserting after section 922 the following:

`Sec. 922A. Attorney General's discretion to deny transfer of a firearm

`The Attorney General may deny the transfer of a firearm under section 922(t)(1)(B)(ii) of this title if the Attorney General--

`(1) determines that the transferee is known (or appropriately suspected) to be or have been engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to terrorism, or providing material support or resources for terrorism; and

`(2) has a reasonable belief that the prospective transferee may use a firearm in connection with terrorism.

`Sec. 922B. Attorney General's discretion regarding applicants for firearm permits which would qualify for the exemption provided under section 922(t)(3)

`The Attorney General may determine that--

`(1) an applicant for a firearm permit which would qualify for an exemption under section 922(t) is known (or appropriately suspected) to be or have been engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to terrorism, or providing material support or resources for terrorism; and

`(2) the Attorney General has a reasonable belief that the applicant may use a firearm in connection with terrorism.';

(2) in section 921(a), by adding at the end the following:

`(36) The term `terrorism' includes international terrorism and domestic terrorism, as those terms are defined in section 2331 of this title.

`(37) The term `material support or resources' has the same meaning as in section 2339A of this title.

`(38) The term `responsible person' means an individual who has the power, directly or indirectly, to direct or cause the direction of the management and policies of the applicant or licensee pertaining to firearms.'; and

(3) in the table of sections, by inserting after the item relating to section 922 the following:

`922A. Attorney General's discretion to deny transfer of a firearm.

`922B. Attorney General's discretion regarding applicants for firearm permits which would qualify for the exemption provided under section 922(t)(3).'.

(b) Effect of Attorney General Discretionary Denial Through the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) on Firearms Permits- Section 922(t) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) in paragraph (1)(B)(ii), by inserting `or State law, or that the Attorney General has determined to deny the transfer of a firearm pursuant to section 922A of this title' before the semicolon;

(2) in paragraph (2), in the matter preceding subparagraph (A), by inserting `, or if the Attorney General has not determined to deny the transfer of a firearm pursuant to section 922A of this title' after `or State law';

(3) in paragraph (3)--

(A) in subparagraph (A)--

(i) in clause (i)--

(I) in subclause (I), by striking `and' at the end; and

(II) by adding at the end the following:

`(III) was issued after a check of the system established pursuant to paragraph (1);';

(ii) in clause (ii), by inserting `and' after the semicolon; and

(iii) by adding at the end the following:

`(iii) the State issuing the permit agrees to deny the permit application if such other person is the subject of a determination by the Attorney General pursuant to section 922B of this title;';

(4) in paragraph (4), by inserting `, or if the Attorney General has not determined to deny the transfer of a firearm pursuant to section 922A of this title' after `or State law'; and

(5) in paragraph (5), by inserting `, or if the Attorney General has determined to deny the transfer of a firearm pursuant to section 922A of this title' after `or State law'.

(c) Unlawful Sale or Disposition of Firearm Based Upon Attorney General Discretionary Denial- Section 922(d) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) in paragraph (8), by striking `or' at the end;

(2) in paragraph (9), by striking the period at the end and inserting `; or'; and

(3) by adding at the end the following:

`(10) has been the subject of a determination by the Attorney General under section 922A, 922B, 923(d)(1)(H), or 923(e) of this title.'.

(d) Attorney General Discretionary Denial as Prohibitor- Section 922(g) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) in paragraph (8), by striking `or' at the end;

(2) in paragraph (9), by striking the comma at the end and inserting `; or'; and

(3) by inserting after paragraph (9) the following:

`(10) who has received actual notice of the Attorney General's determination made under section 922A, 922B, 923(d)(1)(H) or 923(e) of this title,'.

(e) Attorney General Discretionary Denial of Federal Firearms Licenses- Section 923(d)(1) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) in the matter preceding subparagraph (A), by striking `Any' and inserting `Except as provided in subparagraph (H), any';

(2) in subparagraph (F), by striking `and' at the end;

(3) in subparagraph (G), by striking the period and inserting `; and'; and

(4) by adding at the end the following:

`(H) The Attorney General may deny a license application if the Attorney General determines that the applicant (including any responsible person) is known (or appropriately suspected) to be or have been engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to terrorism, or providing material support or resources for terrorism, and the Attorney General has a reasonable belief that the applicant may use a firearm in connection with terrorism.'.

(f) Discretionary Revocation of Federal Firearms Licenses- Section 923(e) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) by inserting `(1)' after `(e)';

(2) by striking `revoke any license' and inserting the following: `revoke--

`(A) any license';

(3) by striking `. The Attorney General may, after notice and opportunity for hearing, revoke the license' and inserting the following: `;

`(B) the license'; and

(4) by striking `. The Secretary's action' and inserting the following: `; or

`(C) any license issued under this section if the Attorney General determines that the holder of such license (including any responsible person) is known (or appropriately suspected) to be or have been engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to terrorism or providing material support or resources for terrorism, and the Attorney General has a reasonable belief that the applicant may use a firearm in connection with terrorism.

`(2) The Attorney General's action'.

(g) Attorney General's Ability To Withhold Information in Firearms License Denial and Revocation Suit-

(1) IN GENERAL- Section 923(f)(1) of title 18, United States Code, is amended by inserting after the first sentence the following: `However, if the denial or revocation is pursuant to subsection (d)(1)(H) or (e)(3), any information upon which the Attorney General relied for this determination may be withheld from the petitioner, if the Attorney General determines that disclosure of the information would likely compromise national security.'.

(2) SUMMARIES- Section 923(f)(3) of title 18, United States Code, is amended by inserting after the third sentence the following: `With respect to any information withheld from the aggrieved party under paragraph (1), the United States may submit, and the court may rely upon, summaries or redacted versions of documents containing information the disclosure of which the Attorney General has determined would likely compromise national security.'.

(h) Attorney General's Ability To Withhold Information in Relief From Disabilities Lawsuits- Section 925(c) of title 18, United States Code, is amended by inserting after the third sentence the following: `If the person is subject to a disability under section 922(g)(10) of this title, any information which the Attorney General relied on for this determination may be withheld from the applicant if the Attorney General determines that disclosure of the information would likely compromise national security. In responding to the petition, the United States may submit, and the court may rely upon, summaries or redacted versions of documents containing information the disclosure of which the Attorney General has determined would likely compromise national security.'.

(i) Penalties- Section 924(k) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) in paragraph (2), by striking `or' at the end;

(2) in paragraph (3), by striking the comma at the end and inserting `; or'; and

(3) by inserting after paragraph (3) the following:

`(4) constitutes an act of terrorism, or providing material support or resources for terrorism,'.

(j) Remedy for Erroneous Denial of Firearm or Firearm Permit Exemption-

(1) IN GENERAL- Section 925A of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(A) in the section heading, by striking `Remedy for erroneous denial of firearm' and inserting `Remedies';

(B) by striking `Any person denied a firearm pursuant to subsection (s) or (t) of section 922' and inserting the following:

`(a) Except as provided in subsection (b), any person denied a firearm pursuant to subsection (t) of section 922 or a firearm permit pursuant to a determination made under section 922B'; and

(C) by adding at the end the following:

`(b) In any case in which the Attorney General has denied the transfer of a firearm to a prospective transferee pursuant to section 922A of this title or has made a determination regarding a firearm permit applicant pursuant to section 922B of this title, an action challenging the determination may be brought against the United States. The petition shall be filed not later than 60 days after the petitioner has received actual notice of the Attorney General's determination under section 922A or 922B of this title. The court shall sustain the Attorney General's determination upon a showing by the United States by a preponderance of evidence that the Attorney General's determination satisfied the requirements of section 922A or 922B, as the case may be. To make this showing, the United States may submit, and the court may rely upon, summaries or redacted versions of documents containing information the disclosure of which the Attorney General has determined would likely compromise national security. Upon request of the petitioner or the court's own motion, the court may review the full, undisclosed documents ex parte and in camera. The court shall determine whether the summaries or redacted versions, as the case may be, are fair and accurate representations of the underlying documents. The court shall not consider the full, undisclosed documents in deciding whether the Attorney General's determination satisfies the requirements of section 922A or 922B.'.

(2) TECHNICAL AND CONFORMING AMENDMENT- The table of sections at the beginning of chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by striking the item relating to section 925A and inserting the following:

`925A. Remedies.'.

(k) Provision of Grounds Underlying Ineligibility Determination by the National Instant Criminal Background Check System- Section 103 of the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act (18 U.S.C. 922 note) is amended--

(1) in subsection (f), by inserting `or the Attorney General has made a determination regarding an applicant for a firearm permit pursuant to section 922B of title 18, United States Code,' after `is ineligible to receive a firearm';

(2) in subsection (f), by inserting `except any information for which the Attorney General has determined that disclosure would likely compromise national security,' after `reasons to the individual,'; and

(3) in subsection (g)--

(A) the first sentence--

(i) by inserting `or if the Attorney General has made a determination pursuant to section 922A or 922B of title 18, United States Code,' after `or State law,'; and

(ii) by inserting `, except any information for which the Attorney General has determined that disclosure would likely compromise national security' before the period at the end ; and

(B) by adding at the end the following: `Any petition for review of information withheld by the Attorney General under this subsection shall be made in accordance with section 925A of title 18, United States Code.'.

(l) Unlawful Distribution of Explosives Based Upon Attorney General Discretionary Denial- Section 842(d) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) in paragraph (9), by striking the period and inserting `; or'; and

(2) by adding at the end the following:

`(10) has received actual notice of the Attorney General's determination made pursuant to subsection (b)(8) or (d)(2) of section 843 of this title.'.

(m) Attorney General Discretionary Denial as Prohibitor- Section 842(i) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) in paragraph (7), by inserting `; or' at the end; and

(2) by inserting after paragraph (7) the following:

`(8) who has received actual notice of the Attorney General's determination made pursuant to subsection (b)(8) or (d)(2) of section 843 of this title,'.

(n) Attorney General Discretionary Denial of Federal Explosives Licenses and Permits- Section 843(b) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) by striking `Upon' and inserting `Except as provided in paragraph (8), upon'; and

(2) by adding at the end the following:

`(8) The Attorney General may deny the issuance of a permit or license to an applicant if the Attorney General determines that the applicant or a responsible person or employee possessor thereof is known (or appropriately suspected) to be or have been engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation of, in aid of, or related to terrorism, or providing material support or resources for terrorism, and the Attorney General has a reasonable belief that the person may use explosives in connection with terrorism.'.

(o) Attorney General Discretionary Revocation of Federal Explosives Licenses and Permits- Section 843(d) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) by inserting `(1)' after `(d)';

(2) by striking `if in the opinion' and inserting the following: `if--

`(A) in the opinion'; and

(3) by striking `. The Secretary's action' and inserting the following: `; or

`(B) the Attorney General determines that the licensee or holder (or any responsible person or employee possessor thereof) is known (or appropriately suspected) to be or have been engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to terrorism, or providing material support or resources for terrorism, and that the Attorney General has a reasonable belief that the person may use explosives in connection with terrorism.

`(2) The Attorney General's action'.

(p) Attorney General's Ability To Withhold Information in Explosives License and Permit Denial and Revocation Suits- Section 843(e) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) in paragraph (1), by inserting after the first sentence the following: `However, if the denial or revocation is based upon an Attorney General determination under subsection (b)(8) or (d)(2) of section 843 of this title, any information which the Attorney General relied on for this determination may be withheld from the petitioner if the Attorney General determines that disclosure of the information would likely compromise national security.'; and

(2) in paragraph (2), by adding at the end the following: `In responding to any petition for review of a denial or revocation based upon an Attorney General determination under subsection (b)(8) or (d)(2) of section 843, the United States may submit, and the court may rely upon, summaries or redacted versions of documents containing information the disclosure of which the Attorney General has determined would likely compromise national security.'.

(q) Ability To Withhold Information in Communications to Employers- Section 843(h)(2) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) in subparagraph (A), by inserting `or in section 843(b)(1) (on grounds of terrorism) of this title' after `section 842(i)'; and

(2) in subparagraph (B)--

(A) in the matter preceding clause (i), by inserting `or in section 843(b)(8),' after `section 842(i),'; and

(B) in clause (ii), by inserting `, except that any information that the Attorney General relied on for a determination pursuant to section 843(b)(8) may be withheld if the Attorney General concludes that disclosure of the information would likely compromise national security' after `determination'.

(r) Conforming Amendment to Immigration and Nationality Act- Section 101(a)(43)(E)(ii) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(43)(E)(ii)) is amended by striking `or (5)' and inserting `(5), or (10)'.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/thomas

 

[Ninja]

Ahhh...the poor, downtrodden, white, heterosexual male...you forgot Christian in there.

Seeing as how white, heterosexual, and supposedly Christian, males have been running the country for the last two centuries or so...that argument is, how shall I put this...ridiculous to the point of irrelevancy. Listen to Michael Savage-Weiner much?

So do you have anything to say about the bill? Or are you content to recite conventional piety and Osama bin Laden talking points?

Oh nevermind... The question answers itself

 

[maineman]

I have read the bill and I think it is marvelous that the NRA is opposing it.

I thnk they should run ads that trumpet their opposition to the government restricting terror suspects from owning firearms.

really.

 

[Diuretic]

I read the bill, thanks Dirt for posting it. It's an arse-covering exercise.

 

[no1tovote4]

I have read the bill and I think it is marvelous that the NRA is opposing it.

I thnk they should run ads that trumpet their opposition to the government restricting terror suspects from owning firearms.

really.

It seems that they are taking a position that protects rights of Americans. If a person is suspected of something it does not mean that they have done something. I find it interesting that some people argue that holding suspected terrorists without trial is wrong, but that denying Constitutionally protected rights to people without trial is right. Both would be wrong IMO.

I'll read the bill in detail later and give a more strong personal opinion on it. But the NRA appears to just be saying that it would likely be unconstitutional to deny rights to people based on suspicion. Imagine if a less than honest group got in there and decided that those in a party might be suspect...

 

[Dirt McGirt]

I thnk they should run ads that trumpet their opposition to the government restricting terror suspects from owning firearms.

LOL. It does sound ridiculous when you put it like that...

but on the flip side so did the ACLU's opposition to warrantless wiretaps on suspected terrorists.

The arguments for the ACLU and civil rights groups on the wiretap issue will be similar to the NRA's arguments on this one.

 

[no1tovote4]

LOL. It does sound ridiculous when you put it like that...

but on the flip side so did the ACLU's opposition to warrantless wiretaps on suspected terrorists.

The arguments for the ACLU and civil rights groups on the wiretap issue will be similar to the NRA's arguments on this one.

Exactly.

 

[Dirt McGirt]

I actually supported the wiretaps to an extent. I also support restricting guns and explosives to terror suspects to an extent. What I have a problem with in both cases is oversight, the criteria for being a suspected terrorist, and what remedies one can take to challenge and get off the list. I have huge concerns with giving that kind of power to the government but at the same time I understand that the threat of islamic extremism is real. I'm on the fence on this one, I see both sides and it's a dilemma for me.

 

[Diuretic]

I noted the control over explosives mentioned in the bill. I am now wondering if various states or federal authorities already control the purchase of ammonium nitrate.

 

[no1tovote4]

I noted the control over explosives mentioned in the bill. I am now wondering if various states or federal authorities already control the purchase of ammonium nitrate.

They track purchases and reasons for them. If you have no need of a ton of poop, they are likely to pin you as somebody to watch...

 

[Diuretic]

They track purchases and reasons for them. If you have no need of a ton of poop, they are likely to pin you as somebody to watch...

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

 

[Ninja]

LOL. It does sound ridiculous when you put it like that...

but on the flip side so did the ACLU's opposition to warrantless wiretaps on suspected terrorists.

The arguments for the ACLU and civil rights groups on the wiretap issue will be similar to the NRA's arguments on this one.

Bingo.

Not to mention the fact that the fascist that introduced the bill doesn't actually believe there's a need for a "war on terror".

He's merely co-opting it to suit his agenda.

And the douchebags who think the no-fly list and warrantless wiretaps and holding terror suspects at Guantanamo are unconstitutional will throw all of their support behind this nonsense.