Not supporting the war BUT supporting our troops

[xen]

If you'all thought the war was illegal. You would not support our troops? thats just NOT RIGHT!.

Zhukov

Nuremberg decided 'following orders' was not a legitimate defense.

A marine patroling the streets has EVERY RIGHT to defend himself and his buddies.
Those nazi soldiers who lined up naked civilians and shot each one in the head, cannot use this 'following orders' defense.

 

[trobinett]

Yea, you can support the troops, and not support the war.

It just makes you look real confused.

Just be honest with both yourself, and those you are talking with, it`s either one or the other.

Can`t have it both ways.

 

[ProudDem]

Nuremberg decided 'following orders' was not a legitimate defense. Any soldier in Iraq who feels he is being ordered to execute an illegal and immoral war is obligated to disobey orders.

By not doing so they are essentially agreeing with the war.

They want to win, and they want to come home victorious and with their honor. That's why...

By not doing so, they are essentially agreeing with the war? Not every case. I am sure a majority of the soldiers support the war. But some do not and STILL serve there with passion. You make it seem as though your interpretation of the facts is the ONLY interpretation. Yeah right.

...makes no sense. You do not support what they are fighting and risking their lives for so therefore you do not support them.

Oh, because you say I dont' support the troops, that is a fact? Give me a break. Thank you for being able to tell me how I feel. *rolling eyes*

You want them to come home now. Coming home now would be a failure i.e. you want them to fail. You want them to fail so that they don't die. They want to live and win, and many of them would rather die than come home having lost.

I never said I wanted them to come home NOW. It hurts me to read about more soldiers dying. That's all I said. And, of course, in your infinite wisdom, because I said I don't support the war, somehow that computes to my wanting them to come home RIGHT NOW. Okay, if you say so.

Because for many of them, bringing the troops home is a red (pun intended) herring. They only want the troops to come home because they hate what they see as capitalistic American thuggery and want America to be defeated and shamed.

They want America to be defeated? Zhukov, it's hard to take you seriously when you make assertions like this. That's just plain ridiculous.

 

[Zhukov]

By not doing so, they are essentially agreeing with the war? Not every case. I am sure a majority of the soldiers support the war. But some do not and STILL serve there with passion. You make it seem as though your interpretation of the facts is the ONLY interpretation. Yeah right.

It's very simple, but I will repeat myself, if they believe the war is illegal they are obligated to disobey orders.

Oh, because you say I dont' support the troops, that is a fact?

It's not a fact because I say so, it's a fact because.

I never said I wanted them to come home NOW. It hurts me to read about more soldiers dying. That's all I said. And, of course, in your infinite wisdom, because I said I don't support the war, somehow that computes to my wanting them to come home RIGHT NOW. Okay, if you say so.

So then tell us, you are the President of the United States of America, you don't support this war, what do you do?

They want America to be defeated? Zhukov, it's hard to take you seriously when you make assertions like this. That's just plain ridiculous.

You think so? I think denying it is just plain naive. Do you know who organizes the most publicized anti-war rallys? They are called the ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War and End Racism) Coalition. Do you know where ANSWER came from? They are a front for a variety of radical left wing fringe groups including the American Communist Workers Party.


And we all know how much Communists love America.

 

[ProudDem]

Yea, you can support the troops, and not support the war.

It just makes you look real confused.

Just be honest with both yourself, and those you are talking with, it`s either one or the other.

Can`t have it both ways.

Says who? YOU? Whatever.

 

[dmp]

Says who? YOU? Whatever.

Zhukov is making a very good case...read what he writes/types.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Says who? YOU? Whatever.

It's not supportive to tell people they're dying for no good reason.

 

[insein]

You can't have it both ways as many have explained.

Lets say this. My favorite team is the Eagles. I say i support them with all my heart. Yet on gameday i goto the game and wear a cowboys jersey and sceam "Eagles cant win, they should quit!" But i fully support the team.

Does that make any lick of sense to you?

 

[ProudDem]

It's very simple, but I will repeat myself, if they believe the war is illegal they are obligated to disobey orders.

Zhukov, nothing is that black and white. There are consequences to disobeying an order. Some would have to weigh which one is the lesser of two evils. But again, I said I believe the majority of the troops supports the war.

?It's not a fact because I say so, it's a fact because.

Oh, okay.

So then tell us, you are the President of the United States of America, you don't support this war, what do you do?

I would create a strategy for exiting Iraq, but I would not have the troops pulled out cold turkey.

You think so? I think denying it is just plain naive. Do you know who organizes the most publicized anti-war rallys? They are called the ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War and End Racism) Coalition. Do you know where ANSWER came from? The are front for a variety of radical left wing fringe groups including the American Communist Workers Party.


And we all know how much Communists love America.

I am saying that I have a hard time believing that the majority of people who do not support the war want America to fail. Have you spoken to these people and they have told you such? Or are you inferring that from their actions? It's okay for you to make that inferrence, but you sure could do a better job of making a more credible inference.

 

[dmp]

Zhukov, nothing is that black and white.

Of course some things are black and white - absolutes DO exist; your denial of their existance does not invalidate those things which are absolutely right or wrong.

 

[ProudDem]

You can't have it both ways as many have explained.

Lets say this. My favorite team is the Eagles. I say i support them with all my heart. Yet on gameday i goto the game and wear a cowboys jersey and sceam "Eagles cant win, they should quit!" But i fully support the team.

Does that make any lick of sense to you?

If you and everyone else who is accusing me of not being able to be against the war BUT support our troops wants to believe that, that's fine. Based upon my definition of supporting our troops, I am supporting them. If it's not your definition of supporting them, no problem.

But to tell me that I can't have it both ways is a joke.

 

[ProudDem]

It's not supportive to tell people they're dying for no good reason.

It's not? Well, Avenger, I guess those who die won't really know how I feel, will they?

 

[Zhukov]

Zhukov, nothing is that black and white.

Lots of things are that black and white.

There are consequences to disobeying an order.

Some Nazi's found out there were consequences to obeying an order.

Some would have to weigh which one is the lesser of two evils.

Since when is doing the right thing evil?

I would create a strategy for exiting Iraq, but I would not have the troops pulled out cold turkey.

Sounds like you and the President are on the same page. You sure you don't support the war? Of course, your response bears a further question: Is your exit strategy Victory?

I am saying that I have a hard time believing that the majority of people who do not support the war want America to fail.

I didn't say the majority, I said many.

Because for many of them, bringing the troops home is a red (pun intended) herring. They only want the troops to come home because they hate what they see as capitalistic American thuggery and want America to be defeated and shamed.

I believe the majority of people who support these protests have no idea who organizes them let alone what the most vocal protestors ultimately want. The Soviet's called people like that useful idiots.

It's okay for you to make that inferrence, but you sure could do a better job of making a more credible inference.

They say it openly themselves. Go check out the ACWP's webpage. We (America) are oppresing the world; we must be stopped.

 

[ProudDem]

Lots of things are that black and white.

Okay, although I believe I said that not everything was black and white. So I meant that. It also means that not everything is NOT black and white.

Some Nazi's found out there were consequences to obeying an order.

Since when is doing the right thing evil?

We were discussing soldiers who did not support the war but went to Iraq anyway. "the lesser of two evils" is a saying. Sheesh.

Sounds like you and the President are on the same page. You sure you don't support the war? Of course, your response bears a further question: Is your exit strategy Victory?

I don't know. Would victory mean that all the insurgents were gone and there was peaceful democracy in Iraq? I honestly do not believe that is going to happen.

I'm not an expert on this kind of stuff. But I would not let soldiers continue to die if there was no end in sight as to this war.

I didn't say the majority, I said many.

You sure did. It's about time you said something not so definitive.

I believe the majority of people who support these protests have no idea who organizes them let alone what the most vocal protestors ultimately want. The Soviet's called people like that useful idiots.

They say it openly themselves. Go check out the ACWP's webpage. We (America) are oppresing the world; we must be stopped.

They may not know. Some people just want to express their opposition without being associated with a particular group.

 

[dilloduck]

Some people just want to express their opposition without being associated with a particular group.

Right--no consequences from exercising your right to speak.
Doesn't work that way

 

[Abbey Normal]

...I'm not an expert on this kind of stuff. But I would not let soldiers continue to die if there was no end in sight as to this war...

I am sure that there were times in the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, and WWII that many, many soldiers were dying, and there seemed to be no end in sight. Yet they stayed the course, toughed it out, and were victorious. That is most definitely not the time to cut and run.

 

[Abbey Normal]

ProudDem, in my little husband/wife scenario in a former post, did you think that wife was truly supporting her husband? Do you think he felt supported and was able to do his job well after talking to her?

 

[Zhukov]

Okay, although I believe I said that not everything was black and white. So I meant that. It also means that not everything is NOT black and white.

You didn't, but if you are correcting yourself, fine.

We were discussing soldiers who did not support the war but went to Iraq anyway.

Alright, well I think then it's time you explain your non-support for the war, because it's one thing for a soldier to think, "Gee, I don't want to go to Iraq. Iraq sucks; it's all hot over there and people will be shooting at me. But my buddies are going and I made a promise when I signed my name so I'll go too," but quite another thing for a soldier to think, "Gee, this war is completely illegal, what the President wants us to do is morally wrong and against the law, it's just for oil and to makes his buddies richer, but I guess I'll go and risk my life anyways." What sort of non-support are we talking about here?

I don't know. Would victory mean that all the insurgents were gone and there was peaceful democracy in Iraq? I honestly do not believe that is going to happen.

Then, please, paint the conditions that would describe an Iraq you would feel comfortable pulling all our troops out of. Give me your definition of victory (you don't want them to fail, right?) with respect to the situation we are in now.

They may not know. Some people just want to express their opposition without being associated with a particular group.

Well now at least you do know. Make of that information what you will.

I don't think the majority of protestors want to see this country destroyed (even if they are unwittingly assisting those who do). I think the majority of the protestors are stupid or ignorant. The stupid are the ones with the "War is not the Answer" bumper stickers, the ignorant are the ones who claim this is an illegal war, or who believe there will be more peace if we left Iraq.

 

[Gunny]

no1tovote4, sorry. To ME, its just common knowledge, why it was delayed so long. I believe the republican party represents the same interests as the politicians who defended large multinational corporations, who had alot of money in german industry.



You think our troops are doing something illegal if they are ordered to it? I dont think so.

Talking out your ass, as usual. No military person is required to carry out an unlawful order. Being "ordered to do it" was thrown out as an excuse at the Nuremberg Trials.

It is the duty of all military personnel to refuse to obey and unlawful order, and report it immediately up the chain of command.

IF they carry out an unlawful order, they are guilty of the crime.

That's military law (Uniform Code of Military Justice). I suppose you'll want to argue THAT with me too?

Its not defeat when bringing home our troops saves their lives, stops hundreds of attacks on us a month, and saves us billions so that we can effectivily focus our energy on capture the top bad guys.
Refering to your Normandy scenerio, its already happening...to sweep through fellujah, killing all the terrorists, only to find out its a terrorist safehaven the next month, that is a defeat.
If this type of war is unwinnable, because we are trying to fight an IDEA with military force, then its not worth our troops lives.
Since you believe this war is winnable, you cannot see why stopping would be good. Sorry.

Semper FI!!

I can stomach only so much ..... your sorry little ignorant ass don't RATE to use the term "Semper Fi." You more than likely have no idea what it means. Keep your scuzzy little lips off MY Marine Corps motto, shithead.

 

[Gunny]

Everytime I see pictures of anti-war protestors, I see those who support the war holding signs that say, "Support Our Troops."

Can someone please explain to me why people assume that just because
someone does not support the war that it means that person also does not
support the troops? I just don't get it.

I do not support this war. I do, however, fully support our
troops. Don't anybody tell me otherwise, as I work for an agency that
assists veterans, so my daily job is indicative of my unwavering support
for our troops (which job I have been in for almost 10 years). I agonize over the constant deaths of our troops and the constant maiming of our troops. I would like them to come home soon so that more of them aren't getting killed and maimed.

Everytime I see anti-war protestors, they are begging to bring our soldiers back. Why isn't that indicative of caring about our troops?

http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showthread.php?p=331204#post331204

Dude, that is a cop out answer right out of the "We support the troops but not the war" handbook.

Your friends are the ones squeezing the triggers and making live bodies into dead ones. If the war is unjust, then their actions are immoral. And THAT is the message you and those like you send EVERY TIME you make such statements. THAT is the message received.

Troops aren't concened with your political extremism, and/or one-sided points of view. They're actually pretty quick to pick up on things. One being that by calling the war unjust, you are in fact calling them murderers.

You cherish your right to dissent so much, but with that right comes the responsibility of your actions.

If you put even ONE doubt in the mind of even ONE troop that what he is doing is immoral, that causes him to hesitate for even one second, either he or someone depending on him is DEAD, and you have surely killed him just as if you pulled the trigger yourself.