Norwegian mass killer ruled insane, likely to avoid jail

[Ravi]

Considering that the longest sentence in Norway is 21 years in jail, it’s better and safer that he spends the rest of his life in a mental hospital. That way he’ll never come out again.

Why can't they give him 21 years for each life that he took? He'd never get out that way either.

The Norwegian justice system doesn't work that way. All murders in this case are considered a single event. I'm not too sure how they would handle a serial killer.

If that is the case then it sounds like their best way of keeping him locked up was to have him declared insane.

I have to say though it seems pretty dehumanizing to the victims to consider them all a "single event."

 

[Ravi]

Yes, I have worked with insane people. Quite extensively, and I have worked with the justice system, specifically, as it pertains to insane people (guardianships, committals, etc).

I know what insanity is. People who are NOT insane do awful things all the time. People who are insane can't help themselves. People who are NOT insane know very well what they're doing and they do it anyway.

I'm so sick of the mind set that if anyone thinks differently than you, then they must be stupid, or crazy, or must have something else wrong with them, because YOU just don't understand what motivates them.

No, you don't have to be insane to kill people. That's the bottom line, and that's the stupidity of your post.

Does this sound sane to you?

The news channel adds that the psychiatrists say the 32-year-old Breivik told them: "He committed the murders — or executions, as he calls them — for the love of his people. He characterizes himself as the most perfect knight after World War II, and that his organization — 'Knights Templar' — will take over power in Europe, and he suggests itself also as a future ruler of Norway."

Norway's Mass Murderer Declared Insane, May Not Go To Prison : The Two-Way : NPR

Justifying the deaths of millions of infants in the name of "overpopulation" sounds insane to me.

But I know the people who approve of that are perfectly sane.

Because how it "sounds" is not the way insanity is determined.

People can believe something completely whacko...and still know that what they're doing isn't acceptable and is illegal..and then either choose to do it or not.

In other words, you can't answer. I think I'll take the words of the psychiatrists over yours.

 

[koshergrl]

Except if he's ruled insane, as soon as he finds a psychiatrist to say he's not insane, he's out.

 

[koshergrl]

Does this sound sane to you?



Norway's Mass Murderer Declared Insane, May Not Go To Prison : The Two-Way : NPR

Justifying the deaths of millions of infants in the name of "overpopulation" sounds insane to me.

But I know the people who approve of that are perfectly sane.

Because how it "sounds" is not the way insanity is determined.

People can believe something completely whacko...and still know that what they're doing isn't acceptable and is illegal..and then either choose to do it or not.

In other words, you can't answer. I think I'll take the words of the psychiatrists over yours.

You do that. Have they said he's insane yet?

 

[Ravi]

Except if he's ruled insane, as soon as he finds a psychiatrist to say he's not insane, he's out.

And if, and that's a big if, that happens he will then have to be put on trial.

 

[koshergrl]

I didn't know that..are you sure?

I thought if he was ruled insane it meant he was insane during the commission of the crime. So if he's later ruled to be SANE, it had no bearing. on the trial...which has already been ruled on?

 

[George Costanza]

Norway has a justice tool called "forvaring" or indefinate custody if the subject is deemed dangerous to the public, so it is possible to keep him in prison for his entire life. Under psych care, hes out once hes deemed sane.

Interestingly enough, California has a similar system when it comes to sexual preditors. They too can be held indefinitely following completion of their prison sentence, so long as they appear to still be a danger to society. They are not held in prison, of couse, but they are held in an "appropriate facility."

 

[konradv]

This is a case where lethal injection seems appropriate to me. He killed a bunch of kids in cold blood in front of hundreds of witnesses. He's insane? DAH!!!!! Give him a dirt nap.....The "trial" should be a mere formality.

Trials as a mere formality! Any wonder we can't let the CONS grab the reins again?

 

[konradv]

Except if he's ruled insane, as soon as he finds a psychiatrist to say he's not insane, he's out.

You seem to be saying he would be able to pick and choose his own psychiatrist. While he may be able to hire someone to see him, if he has the means, I don't see how that would have any effect as long as those already on the case disagree. It makes for a worrysome "what if", but is highly unlikely. Insane people don't just magically become sane in such a short period of time.

 

[koshergrl]

Except if he's ruled insane, as soon as he finds a psychiatrist to say he's not insane, he's out.

You seem to be saying he would be able to pick and choose his own psychiatrist. While he may be able to hire someone to see him, if he has the means, I don't see how that would have any effect as long as those already on the case disagree. It makes for a worrysome "what if", but is highly unlikely. Insane people don't just magically become sane in such a short period of time.

How on earth do you get that from what I wrote?

No, I'm not saying he should be able to or will be able to pick and choose his own psychiatrist (huh?) and I know insane people don't magically become sane in any period of time...though of course I never said they did in the first place.

Perhaps go back and just read the words that are written, and tell the voices in your head that are "filling in the blanks" to pipe down.

 

[Ravi]

Except if he's ruled insane, as soon as he finds a psychiatrist to say he's not insane, he's out.

You seem to be saying he would be able to pick and choose his own psychiatrist. While he may be able to hire someone to see him, if he has the means, I don't see how that would have any effect as long as those already on the case disagree. It makes for a worrysome "what if", but is highly unlikely. Insane people don't just magically become sane in such a short period of time.

How on earth do you get that from what I wrote?

No, I'm not saying he should be able to or will be able to pick and choose his own psychiatrist (huh?) and I know insane people don't magically become sane in any period of time...though of course I never said they did in the first place.

Perhaps go back and just read the words that are written, and tell the voices in your head that are "filling in the blanks" to pipe down.

The guy has been found to be a paranoid schizophrenic. There is no cure for that. There is no way he would be considered not a danger to others, even if he stuck to his medication in the asylum....simply because there is no guarantee that if let out he would continue taking his medication.

Norway has made the best of a bad situation.

 

[koshergrl]

Well, there's no cure for it NOW.

However there are lots of paranoid schizophrenics walking the streets who are determined "sane' and released because WHILE THEY'RE MEDICATED they are sane.

So they release them, they go off their meds, and end up on the street, in jail, dead, or back in the nuthatch.

If he's a schizophrenic, then he's crazy.

 

[konradv]

Except if he's ruled insane, as soon as he finds a psychiatrist to say he's not insane, he's out.

You seem to be saying he would be able to pick and choose his own psychiatrist. While he may be able to hire someone to see him, if he has the means, I don't see how that would have any effect as long as those already on the case disagree. It makes for a worrysome "what if", but is highly unlikely. Insane people don't just magically become sane in such a short period of time.

How on earth do you get that from what I wrote?

No, I'm not saying he should be able to or will be able to pick and choose his own psychiatrist (huh?) and I know insane people don't magically become sane in any period of time...though of course I never said they did in the first place.

Perhaps go back and just read the words that are written, and tell the voices in your head that are "filling in the blanks" to pipe down.

You said, "as soon as he finds a psychiatrist to say he's not insane, he's out." I merely pointed out how unlikely that was. You popped off with a knee-jerk answer and got called on it. I think YOU need to put a little more thouight into your retorts, because I didn't actually read much into your message at all. If I got it wrong, it's because you made a very poor point. Quit whining and at least make an effort! You get no points for intellectual laziness

 

[koshergrl]

It's not intellectually laziness on MY part if YOU read more into my post than is there.

 

[George Costanza]

Yes, I have worked with insane people. Quite extensively, and I have worked with the justice system, specifically, as it pertains to insane people (guardianships, committals, etc).

I know what insanity is. People who are NOT insane do awful things all the time. People who are insane can't help themselves. People who are NOT insane know very well what they're doing and they do it anyway.

Let me ask you serveral questions about insanity.

First - Do you think that an insane person is capable of intelligent thought?

Second - With regard to this Norwegian killer, do you think that his actions are indicitive of insanity or do you think that he is faking it in order to avoid criminal prosecution?

 

[koshergrl]

I have no idea, I am not going to second guess psychiatrists, doctors, and the judicial system that painstakingly came to that decision.

Yes, insane people are certainly capable of intelligent thought. Lots of schizophrenics are brilliant.

And the ones who aren't, are often very, very cunning.

I was just talking about this very subject with the daughter of a friend of mine, who now works with "guilty but insane" juveniles in lock down. I've worked with the same population.

 

[westwall]

Yes, I have worked with insane people. Quite extensively, and I have worked with the justice system, specifically, as it pertains to insane people (guardianships, committals, etc).

I know what insanity is. People who are NOT insane do awful things all the time. People who are insane can't help themselves. People who are NOT insane know very well what they're doing and they do it anyway.

Let me ask you serveral questions about insanity.

First - Do you think that an insane person is capable of intelligent thought?

Second - With regard to this Norwegian killer, do you think that his actions are indicitive of insanity or do you think that he is faking it in order to avoid criminal prosecution?

That's not what she's talking about George. She was pointing out that you don't have to be insane to do bad things. A sociopath for instance is not technically insane like a schizotypal individual is. They don't hear voices or see visions, they just feel that laws don't apply to them. That is a Personality Disorder according to the DSM IV that my wife uses.

 

[George Costanza]

Yes, I have worked with insane people. Quite extensively, and I have worked with the justice system, specifically, as it pertains to insane people (guardianships, committals, etc).

I know what insanity is. People who are NOT insane do awful things all the time. People who are insane can't help themselves. People who are NOT insane know very well what they're doing and they do it anyway.

Let me ask you serveral questions about insanity.

First - Do you think that an insane person is capable of intelligent thought?

Second - With regard to this Norwegian killer, do you think that his actions are indicitive of insanity or do you think that he is faking it in order to avoid criminal prosecution?

That's not what she's talking about George. She was pointing out that you don't have to be insane to do bad things. A sociopath for instance is not technically insane like a schizotypal individual is. They don't hear voices or see visions, they just feel that laws don't apply to them. That is a Personality Disorder according to the DSM IV that my wife uses.

I understand the point she was making - a point that I agree with, by the way. Obviously, you don't have to be crazy to do bad things. My point was (and is) that when the "bad thing" that is done begins to move beyond the limits of rational thought and action, then we are beginning to approach a point where anyone who does it must, by definition, be insane.

That is not to say that all people who do bad things are insane. Far from it. Sadly, the vast, vast majority of people who do bad things are as sane as you or I.

I am well aware of sociopathic personalities. I deal with them on a regular basis.

Thanks for your comments here - incisive as always.

 

[Ravi]

Well, there's no cure for it NOW.

However there are lots of paranoid schizophrenics walking the streets who are determined "sane' and released because WHILE THEY'RE MEDICATED they are sane.

So they release them, they go off their meds, and end up on the street, in jail, dead, or back in the nuthatch.

If he's a schizophrenic, then he's crazy.

Most paranoid schizophrenics aren't mass murderers.

 

[koshergrl]

Who said they were?

Do you like macaroni?