No veils in France

[syrenn]

By making such arguments to excuse an obsolete custom obeyed only by religious radicals and (in the case of ski masks out of season) criminals... you've effectively eviscerated your entire argument's credibility.

Incorrect

Wearing the veil is not an obsolete custom.

Hundreds of millions of Muslim women wear it everyday in various countries around the world.

In the city that I live in here in America.

I see dozens of Muslim women wearing the veil everyday.

I live in a major metropolitan area and work in the downtown as well as slums and suburbs. we have a very large muslim population. I have not ONCE seen a Burkah or veil. I've seen hundreds of headscarves and Hijabs that do not cover the face. I go through an area nicknamed "Little Mogadishu" from it's high somali muslim population. Never saw one once.

Sorry, you still has a fail.

Sandstorms?

 

[Blagger]

The simple fact of the matter is that since towards the end of the Roman empire, the former Roman provinces of continental Europe have, by and large, been Christian influenced lands. And, for the most part, are better for it than territories that fall under the dictates of Islam. The problem now being is that Europe is mainly secular, though its society is still built on largely Christian foundations, and has flourished after seperating the church from the overall machinations of the state. Now, after the EU foolishly opened its prosperous borders to one of the armpits of the world - otherwise known as the middle east, which, to all intents and purposes is still stuck in the 12th century - its (largely) liberal societal ethos is being taken advantage of by a culture that still wants it both ways. In that they still want to live under the yoke of what westerners deem an oppressive religion, but don't want to integrate into a wealthy and safe environment by sacrificing some of the trappings of Islam. Which, in this case, aren't even mandated by the Qur'an.

Basically, the underlying message that's being circulated, endorsed but more importantly influencing future European voters - and understandably westerners who feel threatened by what they're seeing happen in Europe (whether or not it's being sensationalised by the press is beside the point) - is either for muslims to put up or pack up.

 

[manifold]

the simple fact of the matter is that since towards the end of the roman empire, the former roman provinces of continental europe have, by and large, been christian influenced lands. And, for the most part, are better for it than territories that fall under the dictates of islam. The problem now being is that europe is mainly secular, though its society is still built on largely christian foundations, and has flourished after seperating the church from the overall machinations of the state. Now, after the eu foolishly opened its prosperous borders to one of the armpits of the world - otherwise known as the middle east, which, to all intents and purposes is still stuck in the 12th century - its (largely) liberal societal ethos is being taken advantage of by a culture that still wants it both ways. In that they still want to live under the yoke of what westerners deem an oppressive religion, but don't want to integrate into a wealthy and safe environment by sacrificing some of the trappings of islam. Which, in this case, aren't even mandated by the qur'an.

Basically, the underlying message that's being circulated, endorsed but more importantly influencing future european voters - and understandably westerners who feel threatened by what they're seeing happen in europe (whether or not it's being sensationalised by the press is beside the point) - is either for muslims to put up or pack up.

+1

 

[Sunni Man]

I live in a major metropolitan area and work in the downtown as well as slums and suburbs. we have a very large muslim population. I have not ONCE seen a Burkah or veil. I've seen hundreds of headscarves and Hijabs that do not cover the face. I go through an area nicknamed "Little Mogadishu" from it's high somali muslim population. Never saw one .

The answer is quite simple.

Somali women do not wear the veil; as it is not part of their tradition or culture.

The mosque I attend Is about 60% Somali

And I have never seen a Somali Muslim woman wearing a veil.

But if I go for prayers to another mosque in the next town.

It is made up mainly of Middle East and Gulf Arabs.

Most of the women wear the veil.

So in essence, it depends on the what country the local Muslims originated from as to whether you will see veiled women or not.

 

[High_Gravity]

I live in a major metropolitan area and work in the downtown as well as slums and suburbs. we have a very large muslim population. I have not ONCE seen a Burkah or veil. I've seen hundreds of headscarves and Hijabs that do not cover the face. I go through an area nicknamed "Little Mogadishu" from it's high somali muslim population. Never saw one .

The answer is quite simple.

Somali women do not wear the veil; as it is not part of their tradition or culture.

The mosque I attend Is about 60% Somali

And I have never seen a Somali Muslim woman wearing a veil.

But if I go for prayers to another mosque in the next town.

It is made up mainly of Middle East and Gulf Arabs.

Most of the women wear the veil.

So in essence, it depends on the what country the local Muslims originated from as to whether you will see veiled women or not.

Basically the veil is an Arab traditional thing, not necessarily Muslim.

 

[Two Thumbs]

At least two women have been detained in France while wearing Islamic veils across their faces, after a law banning the garment in public came into force.

Police said they were held not because of their veils but for joining an unauthorised protest against the ban.

France is the first country in Europe to publicly ban a form of dress some Muslims regard as a religious duty.

Anyone caught breaking the law will be liable to a fine of 150 euros (£133; $217) and a citizenship course.

People forcing women to wear the veil face a much larger fine and a prison sentence of up to two years.

It was not clear whether the women detained at the protest would also be fined for their veils.

BBC News - Women in face veils detained as France enforces ban

Being required to remove a veil in an area where security / identification is an issue (like airports) is reasonable enough, but being banned from wearing it in a public park seems a bit draconian.

Now aren't you glad you live in America where you have the Right to Free Speech?

 

[ekrem]

Now, after the EU foolishly opened its prosperous borders to one of the armpits of the world - otherwise known as the middle east,

So, UK's Muslim immigrants come from Middle-East?
I thought it were Indian, Bangladeshi and Pakistani Muslims?
France, Netherlands and UK are prime examples of immigration from colonies.
Algeria has a special status as it was no colony but legally a part of France.

Blame yourself. Wouldn't there be a colony-relationship the immigrants would have only been asylums or 'Gastarbeiter' like in Germany.

 

[High_Gravity]

Now, after the EU foolishly opened its prosperous borders to one of the armpits of the world - otherwise known as the middle east,

So, UK's Muslim immigrants come from Middle-East?
I thought it were Indian, Bangladeshi and Pakistani Muslims?France, Netherlands and UK are prime examples of immigration from colonies.
Algeria has a special status as it was no colony but legally a part of France.

Blame yourself. Wouldn't there be a colony-relationship the immigrants would have only been asylums or 'Gastarbeiter' like in Germany.

That is true but England also has alot of Muslims from Egypt, Somalia and Iraq.

 

[ekrem]

I have not ONCE seen a Burkah or veil. I've seen hundreds of headscarves and Hijabs that do not cover the face.

Face covering is not a religious obligation coming from scripture.
But there are women who interpret it as a religious obligation and at that point it becomes an interference in freedom of religion of those persons once the law-giver bans it.
It is for the individuals to decide what their religious obligations are.

That would be a theoretical discussion.
In reality, there are about 2.5 Mio Muslim women in France and it is about 1.900 women on whose behalf the law-giver is exploiting public moods and trying to gain something out of it.

 

[ekrem]

It's approximatively about 0.076% of Muslim women in France.
And about 0.0029% of every person in France.

Media will show up with Burka pictures, but in reality you must be lucky to see a Burka in France (0.0029% of every person in France).
Still enough for the current law-giver (Sarkozy) to make a public PR out of it.

 

[High_Gravity]

It's approximatively about 0.076% of Muslim women in France.
And about 0.0029% of every person in France.

Media will show up with Burka pictures, but in reality you must be lucky to see a Burka in France (0.0029% of every person in France).Still enough for the current law-giver (Sarkozy) to make a public PR out of it.

If thats true than this law should be no big deal, right?

 

[ekrem]

Proportionality isn't there for the law-giver having a need to intervene.
It's a populist move and the process has been accompanied by medial interest.
Cheap PR, targeting a specific kind of voters who are on the rise and whose rise decrease Sarkozy's chance to get re-elected if they don't vote for him (National Front).
All on the back of 1.900 women.

 

[Colin]

Proportionality isn't there for the law-giver having a need to intervene.
It's a populist move and the process has been accompanied by medial interest.
Cheap PR, targeting a specific kind of voters who are on the rise and whose rise decrease Sarkozy's chance to get re-elected if they don't vote for him (National Front).
All on the back of 1.900 women.

If you feel so strongly about this, wouldn't you be better advised to concentrate your criticism against your own country that has had a ban on the veil in schools, universities and government buildings for decades...instead of poking your nose into other countries laws and cultures!

 

[ekrem]

If you feel so strongly about this, wouldn't you be better advised to concentrate your criticism against your own country that has had a ban on the veil in schools, universities and government buildings for decades...instead of poking your nose into other countries laws and cultures!

There is a considerable difference between banning something within buildings and banning something on the streets.
And citizens with head-scarfs still could enter those buildings except for Universities.

And it's not for you to decide where I put my nose into.

 

[Colin]

If you feel so strongly about this, wouldn't you be better advised to concentrate your criticism against your own country that has had a ban on the veil in schools, universities and government buildings for decades...instead of poking your nose into other countries laws and cultures!

There is a considerable difference between banning something within buildings and banning something on the streets.
And citizens with head-scarfs still could enter those buildings except for Universities.

And it's not for you to decide where I put my nose into.

A ban is a ban! Hypocrite, much?

 

[ekrem]

A ban is a ban! Hypocrite, much?

That Hypocrisy is ending:
BBC VIDEO - Turkey's universities drop Islamic headscarf ban

And there still is a big difference between banning something on the streets and banning something within State Buildings.

 

[Colin]

A ban is a ban! Hypocrite, much?

That Hypocrisy is ending:
BBC VIDEO - Turkey's universities drop Islamic headscarf ban

And there still is a big difference between banning something on the streets and banning something within State Buildings.

This is hilarious! Listening to followers of the most intolerant religion in the world whining about a foreign country's laws against face coverings!

 

[Grace]

You (general you) have a very expensive boutique or store. Say maybe a pawn shop. Would you allow someone to come in and shop with a burqa on? Or full body burqa? Is it racist to know what may be put under those robes without being paid for? If so, isnt it also racist where stores make customers check their bags before going shopping?

 

[ekrem]

This is hilarious! Listening to followers of the most intolerant religion in the world whining about a foreign country's laws against face coverings!

Who forces you to listen to me?
Once I am willing to consider your private feelings about Islam in my posting-activity, I will let you know!

You either debate objective or I must consider you as a Anti-Muslim bigot.

 

[Big Fitz]

I have not ONCE seen a Burkah or veil. I've seen hundreds of headscarves and Hijabs that do not cover the face.

Face covering is not a religious obligation coming from scripture.
But there are women who interpret it as a religious obligation and at that point it becomes an interference in freedom of religion of those persons once the law-giver bans it.
It is for the individuals to decide what their religious obligations are.

That would be a theoretical discussion.
In reality, there are about 2.5 Mio Muslim women in France and it is about 1.900 women on whose behalf the law-giver is exploiting public moods and trying to gain something out of it.

You assume that Somalis are the only Muslims I see. Again, I've still NEVER seen a Burkah or veil in the twin cities.

Sounds like those 1900 muslim women in France you mention need to adapt to modern western society.