No, The Su-57 Isn't 'Junk:' Six Features We like On Russia's New Fighter

[Daryl Hunt]

Cleaning up the F-14 isn't a real bad idea.

Sure it is. Nobody has designed swing-wing planes since the 70s for a reason.

The Russians fielded a brand new swing wing trainer. I forget the name of it. It might be the ghost of things to come.

 

[DrainBamage]

And so is the cost and availability of the SU-57 along with the development. What's right for one is also right for the other.

Right but this doesn't explain how it would drive F-35s projected costs up, since they are based on existing orders. It isn't like Italy or Norway is going to cancel their F-35 order and buy SU-57s instead.

F-35 costs are projected into when it reaches full production capacity, which would then continue into the 2030s.

 

[DrainBamage]

What reason? Metallurgy? They whipped that problem. It's still a great idea where you get the best of two worlds. But it is more costly.

1. It is (currently) impossible to make stealthy sweep wing designs, and stealth became the direction of all US fighter/bomber aircraft

2. Improvements in aerodynamics/engines/software has greatly reduced the mechanical drag reduction advantage of variable wings to where that weight and space is better used for fuel.

F-14s were better interceptors in an era when USN's main threat was Russian bomber forces, once that era passed F-18s made far more sense as they did just about everything else better. You want a pure interceptor an F-22 does everything better than an F-14 and it doesn't have swing wings.

Clearly USA is willing to buy large expensive fighter aircraft (see F-22) so it isn't cost, they sit in museums because it is no longer a design where the penalties outweigh the benefits compared to fixed wing aircraft.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Those wacky Russians. 3,436,425,000 Rubles ($54,000,000 USD) is a lot of money to spend on something that would end up on the ground in a million pieces, should we engage them.

Military 101. Never sell your opponent short. The SU-57 is just slightly better than the F-15. It's not as good as the F-22 and who knows against the F-35 (may we never find out). It will eat a F-18 and F-16s lunch. If the Russians can get the numbers up to a decent level of them, they become a very serious threat. If they can field 500 or more, they become a severe problem since we can only field 187 F-22s. Okay, half of theirs will be grounded but so will half of our F-22s. That still means that they will have enough to make a difference in the air. They need to stop pushing the SU-35 so hard and spend their money and time on the SU-57 which is a much more deadly weapon system. Forgetting that just gets Western Pilots dead.

Does it need to be better? Russia and the US aren't going to be going to war any time soon.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

And so is the cost and availability of the SU-57 along with the development. What's right for one is also right for the other.

Right but this doesn't explain how it would drive F-35s projected costs up, since they are based on existing orders. It isn't like Italy or Norway is going to cancel their F-35 order and buy SU-57s instead.

F-35 costs are projected into when it reaches full production capacity, which would then continue into the 2030s.

The cost right now is about 95 mil a copy for the A. It's projected when they are in full production and the other assembly line is in full operation, the cost will go down to 85 mil per copy. With the projected price of 55 mil per copy of the SU-57 that might make a difference in the total production of the F-35 hence the projected price of the F-35 goes up.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Those wacky Russians. 3,436,425,000 Rubles ($54,000,000 USD) is a lot of money to spend on something that would end up on the ground in a million pieces, should we engage them.

Military 101. Never sell your opponent short. The SU-57 is just slightly better than the F-15. It's not as good as the F-22 and who knows against the F-35 (may we never find out). It will eat a F-18 and F-16s lunch. If the Russians can get the numbers up to a decent level of them, they become a very serious threat. If they can field 500 or more, they become a severe problem since we can only field 187 F-22s. Okay, half of theirs will be grounded but so will half of our F-22s. That still means that they will have enough to make a difference in the air. They need to stop pushing the SU-35 so hard and spend their money and time on the SU-57 which is a much more deadly weapon system. Forgetting that just gets Western Pilots dead.

Does it need to be better? Russia and the US aren't going to be going to war any time soon.

But Pak and India might be at war any given day. India is looking strongly at the F-35. Pak won't be offered the F-35 and might elect to go with the SU-57 even with the weaker engines.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Those wacky Russians. 3,436,425,000 Rubles ($54,000,000 USD) is a lot of money to spend on something that would end up on the ground in a million pieces, should we engage them.

Military 101. Never sell your opponent short. The SU-57 is just slightly better than the F-15. It's not as good as the F-22 and who knows against the F-35 (may we never find out). It will eat a F-18 and F-16s lunch. If the Russians can get the numbers up to a decent level of them, they become a very serious threat. If they can field 500 or more, they become a severe problem since we can only field 187 F-22s. Okay, half of theirs will be grounded but so will half of our F-22s. That still means that they will have enough to make a difference in the air. They need to stop pushing the SU-35 so hard and spend their money and time on the SU-57 which is a much more deadly weapon system. Forgetting that just gets Western Pilots dead.

Does it need to be better? Russia and the US aren't going to be going to war any time soon.

But Pak and India might be at war any given day. India is looking strongly at the F-35. Pak won't be offered the F-35 and might elect to go with the SU-57 even with the weaker engines.

Great, and do you care about these two countries fighting each other?

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Those wacky Russians. 3,436,425,000 Rubles ($54,000,000 USD) is a lot of money to spend on something that would end up on the ground in a million pieces, should we engage them.

Military 101. Never sell your opponent short. The SU-57 is just slightly better than the F-15. It's not as good as the F-22 and who knows against the F-35 (may we never find out). It will eat a F-18 and F-16s lunch. If the Russians can get the numbers up to a decent level of them, they become a very serious threat. If they can field 500 or more, they become a severe problem since we can only field 187 F-22s. Okay, half of theirs will be grounded but so will half of our F-22s. That still means that they will have enough to make a difference in the air. They need to stop pushing the SU-35 so hard and spend their money and time on the SU-57 which is a much more deadly weapon system. Forgetting that just gets Western Pilots dead.

Does it need to be better? Russia and the US aren't going to be going to war any time soon.

But Pak and India might be at war any given day. India is looking strongly at the F-35. Pak won't be offered the F-35 and might elect to go with the SU-57 even with the weaker engines.

Great, and do you care about these two countries fighting each other?

It would probably escalate and we could read in the dark in the US with all the hundreds of Nukes going off over there.

 

[DrainBamage]

The cost right now is about 95 mil a copy for the A. It's projected when they are in full production and the other assembly line is in full operation, the cost will go down to 85 mil per copy. With the projected price of 55 mil per copy of the SU-57 that might make a difference in the total production of the F-35 hence the projected price of the F-35 goes up.

The F-35A is projected to cost 85 million by 2019, clearly SU-57 will not impact that. That price is taking into account full production capacity by 2021-2022, which will then continue until the mid 2030s just to fill the current orders. If some country that has not agreed to purchse F-35s decides to buy SU-57s it would not effect the F-35 price.

Even if some of the current buyers canceled and none of the fence-sitters like Germany/Singapore/etc. bought F-35 it wouldn't affect the price, because the 85 million is what it costs to build the plane at a maxed production capacity. It isn't like they would slow down, they'd just end it in 2034 instead of 2035.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Those wacky Russians. 3,436,425,000 Rubles ($54,000,000 USD) is a lot of money to spend on something that would end up on the ground in a million pieces, should we engage them.

Military 101. Never sell your opponent short. The SU-57 is just slightly better than the F-15. It's not as good as the F-22 and who knows against the F-35 (may we never find out). It will eat a F-18 and F-16s lunch. If the Russians can get the numbers up to a decent level of them, they become a very serious threat. If they can field 500 or more, they become a severe problem since we can only field 187 F-22s. Okay, half of theirs will be grounded but so will half of our F-22s. That still means that they will have enough to make a difference in the air. They need to stop pushing the SU-35 so hard and spend their money and time on the SU-57 which is a much more deadly weapon system. Forgetting that just gets Western Pilots dead.

Does it need to be better? Russia and the US aren't going to be going to war any time soon.

But Pak and India might be at war any given day. India is looking strongly at the F-35. Pak won't be offered the F-35 and might elect to go with the SU-57 even with the weaker engines.

Great, and do you care about these two countries fighting each other?

It would probably escalate and we could read in the dark in the US with all the hundreds of Nukes going off over there.

Very doubtful.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The only thing they are waiting for on the SU-57 is the new engine. You can't be called even a Pseudo 5th gen fighter unless you can super cruise. It has the avionics and defense package, the manueverability, weapons and more. It's a nasty package that would be hard pressed to be handled by anything other than the F-22. But it does lack super cruise.

Let's take a good look at super cruise. Is it that important? Actually, it's probably not. Okay, you get there faster in Military Power. It uses less gas than in Afterburner. But you are still at Military Power. This isn't how fighters go from point a to point b. They keep the speed down to well below Mach 1 to conserve fuel and then power it up when they enter into combat. Supercruise doesn't extend your range on a fighter one iota unless you have to get there in a hurry in the first place.

If it were that important, there are new engines that are made available for the F-15 that are in the 31K class that would allow the F-15 to supercruise as long as he kept his missile package and external fuel down to a dull roar. They don't see the need of the engine because it gains almost zero to go to it. In order to justify it, they would have to drop fuel and weapons. Or they can leave it alone, get there at Mach .95 in Military Power instead of Mach 1.5 in supercruise and have more weapons and fuel to get the job done.

But the world is fickle. If it can't supercruise it is a bad thing. The F-35 can't supercruise, ergo, it's a POS. Well, it can't but it's still a bad assed bird. And as time goes on, people begin to not place the degree of worry that it can't supercruise on it. I think that just because the SU-57 can't supercruise is keeping it from entering the world stage is just ridiculous. What's sad is, the world is buying their SU-35 which is an older and inferior fighter to the SU-57. In the end, the SU-35 is still an upgraded SU-27, nothing more.

 

[DrainBamage]

The biggest issue with SU-57 isn't performance (which it lacks for being marketed as a 5th gen fighter), it's financial viability. Russia was counting on India being a partner in the program to help fund development, and with India dropping out there aren't any other players out there. China wants nothing to do with it, and the poorer countries that Russia usually peddles arms to don't have deep pockets.

I submit it's done, it'll be deployed in irrelevant small numbers and it's biggest impact will be wowing the crowd at air shows.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The biggest issue with SU-57 isn't performance (which it lacks for being marketed as a 5th gen fighter), it's financial viability. Russia was counting on India being a partner in the program to help fund development, and with India dropping out there aren't any other players out there. China wants nothing to do with it, and the poorer countries that Russia usually peddles arms to don't have deep pockets.

I submit it's done, it'll be deployed in irrelevant small numbers and it's biggest impact will be wowing the crowd at air shows.

I think the real problem exists that the Russians fielded the SU-35 and took needed funds from the SU-57 program. Much of what was to go into the SU-57 went into the SU-35 which is actually just an upgraded SU-27. They screwed the pooch on that one.

I am going to start another thread about an easy to do US version of the SU-57 even with the new Super Cruise Engine from off the shelf parts. The base bird is already in production.